Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Locked
Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:44 am

I was going to figure out how this week's Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2 fits into established continuity, figuring that it must tie in to ASM 258, but, lo and behold, I don't own ASM 258. Can anyone help with placement of this new issue?
Paul B.

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Michael » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:50 am

ASM 258 is where Peter first learns the symbiote is alive. The symbiote's escape on page 5 is depicted in FF 274 and ASM 261. Keep in mind that the "meanwhile" captions make it seem like this takes place while MJ and Liz are being held captive by the Hobgoblin and the Rose but these can be ignored if necessary. In PPTSS 99, the symbiote takes control of an innocent man and uses him to travel away from the Baxter Building. Note that the caption says "It has but recently escaped from this fortress which quarters the far-famed Fantastic Four, freed by an alien probing device which drilled a small hole in it's transparent prison tube!" In PPTSS 100, the symbiote arrives in Peter's house. In WOSM 1, Peter is still ignorant of the symbiote's escape. Can we make this issue fit in with these issues?

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:44 pm

Thanks, Michael.

I do have FF 274 and page 4 of SM&FF2 2 matches up with the 2-page epilog of FF 274 -- no new content. I suspect the scene in ASM 261 shows the same thing (I don't own ASM 261, but there's no note in the recent Spider-Man index to the effect that it's a duplicate scene).

Do the first three pages of SM&FF2 2 match up with anything? This is where I suspect the tie-in with ASM 258, but I don't know if the material is new or how it fits into existing canon.

Hoe does the remainder of SM&FF2 2 (after page 4) dovetail with existing content? In this story, the symbiote is recaptured and imprisoned in a new, more secure containment at the Baxter Building. This seems to contradict the caption in PPTSS 99 about how the symbiote was free at that point. I assume the new story is a retcon and that the symbiote somehow got free again to appear in PPTSS 99?
Paul B.

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Michael » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:04 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:Thanks, Michael.

I do have FF 274 and page 4 of SM&FF2 2 matches up with the 2-page epilog of FF 274 -- no new content. I suspect the scene in ASM 261 shows the same thing (I don't own ASM 261, but there's no note in the recent Spider-Man index to the effect that it's a duplicate scene).
Yes, it's a duplicate scene. Interestingly enough, in ASM 261, the caption reads "With the Fantastic Four away on a mission, the Baxter Building stands empty tonight", which we have to ignore for SM&FF2 2 to take place.

BTW, why wasn't Kristoff listed as behind the scenes in ASM 261~FF 274? The dialogue in FF 278 made it fairly clear that he sent the probe that freed the symbiote.
Paul Bourcier wrote:Do the first three pages of SM&FF2 2 match up with anything? This is where I suspect the tie-in with ASM 258, but I don't know if the material is new or how it fits into existing canon.
No, the material is new. Peter didn't have a costume in ASM 258, resulting in the Torch playing a practical joke on him.
Paul Bourcier wrote:Hoe does the remainder of SM&FF2 2 (after page 4) dovetail with existing content? In this story, the symbiote is recaptured and imprisoned in a new, more secure containment at the Baxter Building. This seems to contradict the caption in PPTSS 99 about how the symbiote was free at that point. I assume the new story is a retcon and that the symbiote somehow got free again to appear in PPTSS 99?
That would be my guess as well. Anyone have any other suggestions?

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:27 pm

Michael wrote:
No, the material is new. Peter didn't have a costume in ASM 258, resulting in the Torch playing a practical joke on him.
Okay, so where do you propose placing the first three pages in the chronologies of Spidey, Reed, Sue, Franklin, and the symbiote?
Paul B.

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Michael » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:40 pm

For Reed and Sue, they would go between FF 274 and 275. For Franklin, they would go between ASM 260 and FF 275. For the symbiote, they would go between ASM 260 and FF 274~ASM 261. I'm not sure where they would go in Peter's chronology, since we'd have to ignore the "at that moment" and "just then" captions in ASM 261 to place this.

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:12 am

Thanks, Michael. That seems to work for the first three pages of SM&FF2 2. Now, as far as pages 5 on go, Spidey thinks, "Thank God Liz is okay. If she and Harry lost their baby because of the Hobgoblin's attack, I'd never have forgiven myself for not stopping him sooner. As it is, I'm overdue to visit them in the hospital." This would appear to occur right after ASM 261, based on the synopsis for this issue in the Spidey index. Does that sound right?
Paul B.

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Michael » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:03 am

Yeah, but I'm not sure how soon "right after" is. For example,we've got a few stories placed between PPTSS 96 and QP 2, even though QP 2 features Peter selling Robbie pictures of the battle in PPTSS 96. SM&FF2 2 definitely takes place before little Normie Osborn first appears in ASM 263.

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:52 pm

My guess is that the "Thank God Liz is okay" statement is an indication that we shouldn't put much, if anything, between ASM 261 and this part of SM&FF2 2 if we can help it.

Also, Sue makes Reed take Franklin out for ice cream right before the symbiote escapes, and the Richardses are shown going out to get said ice cream after the symbiote escapes. Besides, you'd think that Reed would notice the symbiote missing if the rest of SM&FF2 2 didn't occur that same evening.

It appears that the chronology goes:
ASM 261 (1-?)
SM&FF2 2 (1-3)
FF 274 (21-22) ~ ASM 261 (?-?) [same as SM&FF2 2 (4)]
ASM 261 (?-22)
SM&FF2 2 (5-22)

I presume all of this may occur in one day, but again, I don't have ASM 261, so I don't know for sure, and I can't fill in the page/panel question marks. Can ayone help?
Paul B.

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Michael » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:38 am

Paul, Peter rescues Liz on page 21 of ASM 261. He doesn't appear on page 22. So SM&FF2 2 would have to take place after ASM 261 for Peter. The symbiote escapes on page 8- we'll just have to ignore the "just then, across town" and "at that moment" captions and assume that page 8 takes place after page 21.
The chronology would then be:
ASM 261 (1-7)
ASM 261 (9-21)
SM&FF2 2(1-3)
FF 274 (21-22)~ASM 261 (8) [same as SM&FF2 2 (4)]
SM&FF2 2 (5-22)
Incidentally, here's a couple of other things I just noticed. The ending of SM&FF2 2 implies that Future Doom sent the probe. But in FF 278, Kristoff tells Reed "my flying probes subtly and selectively adjusted your equipment" and the editor's note says "you saw a sample in FF 274". So we would have to ignore that editor's note for this to be canon.
The other thing that bothers me is that Reed says "the only way it's getting out now is if someone blows up the building". Is Gage suggesting that the symbiote escaped when Kristoff blew up the building in FF 278? That would be inconsistent with our current chronology, since WOSM 1 takes place before UX 190-191 in Peter's chronology and UX 190-191 takes place prior to Rom 65-66 in the X-Men's and Avengers' chronologies. (Rom 65-66 take place concurrently with FF 277.) Also, in WOSM 1, Peter tries to go to the Baxter Building to get help from Reed and the symbiote tries to stop him. Then again, maybe Future Doom blew up the symbiote's prison.

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:56 am

I guess we'll have to stay tuned to SM&FF2, but something tells me the chronological inconsistencies won't be reconciled in the new series.
Paul B.

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1178
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #2

Post by Michael » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:41 pm

Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four v2 #4 is out. It turns out the time traveller was Kristoff. Kristoff explains, "I diverted one of my younger self's probes, directing it to release the alien symbiote you kept prisoner, so I might obtain a sample of it... using it to create a biological weapon that I sold to Von Doom through proxies. A "venom bomb" whose deployment I later arranged on American soil... knowing it would be traced back to Doom." So I guess that both Young Kristoff and Older Kristoff should be listed as behind the scenes in FF 274 (21-22)~ASM 261 (8). In addition, older Kristoff should be behind the scenes in the "Venom Bomb" issues of New Avengers and Mighty Avengers.
There's still one outstanding issue- are we supposed to conclude that the symbiote escaped once and was recaptured once, and then escaped again when Kristoff blew up the Baxter Building in FF 278? That seems to be what Gage is implying but it contradicts everyone else's chronology. Or should we just assume that the symbiote escaped again somehow (perhaps Kristoff freed it because he didn't want to screw up history) and then went to appear in PPTSS 98-100?

Locked