A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by JephYork » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:47 am

I'm sure we talked about all of these, but I'm all discombobulated and I'd appreciate someone just handing me the answers on a plate. Where did we decide to place:

X-Men & Spider-Man #2-3
X-Men vs. Hulk

?

Also, I've placed the first three stories in the recent "Rampaging Wolverine" one-shot, but the fourth is giving me trouble. Wolvie is marooned on an island for "a week" (possibly a topical reference) after Sauron drops him there following a battle, until Nightcrawler comes and gets him in the Blackbird. Wolvie appears (to me) to be wearing his Morrison-era jacket, but Nightcrawler doesn't, and the X-Men didn't use Blackbirds during the Morrison era. Thoughts?

And finally, I know it just came out, but where should we place Spider-Man & the Fantastic Four v2 #3? (This would be circa the Ghost Rider/Hulk/Wolvie/Spidey "New Fantastic Four" period.)

-Jeph!

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Somebody » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:41 am

JephYork wrote:X-Men & Spider-Man #2-3
Can't find a discussion on #2. After some discussion (largely focusing on Archangel), no-one objected to the following on #3:
Aquashark wrote:Would anyone know if this placement might work?

PPTSS 234 (Blood Brothers 4 - Ben seems a little shaken -- has been beat up previously by Hobgoblin and his costume is torn up)
SMTU 4 (I don't have this one... )
ASMU 12 (afternoon - Ben surrenders the skeleton to authorities (with JJJ present) and has dinner with Pete & MJ.)
XM/SM 3 (that night?)
ASMU 13 (JJJ has been missing for 24hrs; Ben teams up with Cage & Iron Fist to beat up Scorpion)
SENSM 5 (Blood Brothers 5 - Ben seems okay)

Let me know what you think!
metaldragon wrote:Looks like things are narrowed down to the big guest appearance run between UX 325/X 45 (Iceman returns to the Mansion after the road trip that begins in X-Men: Prime) and UX 328/Sabertooth: Red Zone (Archangel's wings torn up by Sabretooth).

UX 328 has a cover date of Jan 1996, which is the same for PPTSS 230. So it looks like X-Men/Spider-Man #3 needs to take place right before that for the X-Men if this takes place as close to PPTSS 234 as possible for Spider-Man. That means for Archangel between X&CD 1 and UX 328 [his appearance here is missing from his listing], Cyclops between SMTU 1 and UX 328, Iceman between X 47 and SABRE:RZ, Storm between XFOR 48 and XFOR 51, Wolverine between UX '95 and UX 329.

Mr Sinister appears in UX 325 & X 45 so this story could continue on from whatever he was doing there in Seattle and before he goes to Genosha in C2 26.
JephYork wrote:X-Men vs. Hulk
Ah... I don't even think we agreed this one was canon, let alone where to put it.

The thread is here - X-MEN VS. HULK #1 - but the spots for the X-Men and the Hulk are contradictory, and we never quite resolved it...

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Michael » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:56 am

JephYork wrote: X-Men & Spider-Man #2-3
X-Men and Spider-Man 2 takes place after ASM 294, since Kraven is explicitly described as having killed himself in the story. Therefore it should take place after ASMV.W 1. Havok is absent but Alex could have been elsewhere following up a lead on the Marauders.

It probably takes place before UX 221, since the X-Men are in New York and not California, and before UX 220, since Storm leaves to go after Forge in that issue. Also, the X-Men don't refer to Sinister trying to kill Maddie, who looks exactly like Jean, when the X-Men find out Sinister is cloning the original X-Men, so it's probably before UX 221. (Although you have to wonder why the X-Men didn't eventually put two and two together and realize Maddie was a clone of Jean if they knew Sinister was cloning the original X-Men and Sinister was trying to kill Maddie.)
JephYork wrote:And finally, I know it just came out, but where should we place Spider-Man & the Fantastic Four v2 #3? (This would be circa the Ghost Rider/Hulk/Wolvie/Spidey "New Fantastic Four" period.)

-Jeph!
It takes place a couple of hours after FF 349, so it should go between FF 349 and XCAL 41-BTS in Wolverine's chronology.
EDIT: I just read the W2 7 thread and realized that XCAL 41 was moved. So Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four 3 should go between FF 349 and M/CP 64.

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by JephYork » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:58 am

Also, what about X-Men Unlimited #47? Wolvie and Psylocke drink and she tells a story about fighting cyborgs.

I placed the framing sequence after X #109, figuring that this was Wolverine and Psylocke having one last drink together before she went off with the X-Treme Team (and died). But what about the flashback?

She's in her Asian body with no Crimson Dawn mark, and she's doing a "covert ops" mission -- although that may be a tongue-in-cheek reference. She appears to have telepathy, not telekinesis. There are no other clues that I can see.

Any ideas?

-Jeph!

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Michael » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:04 am

Well, in the story, Betsy notes that her psionic knife has failed to stop opponents before, so this is probably after UX 271, when her blade failed to stop Hodge. But I can't think of any way to narrow it down-it has to go between UX 271 and UX 328 (where Betsy gets almost killed by Sabretooth) but where?

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Somebody » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:24 am

JephYork wrote:I placed the framing sequence after X #109, figuring that this was Wolverine and Psylocke having one last drink together before she went off with the X-Treme Team (and died). But what about the flashback?
Wait... she doesn't have the Crimson Dawn tattoo in the framing sequence EITHER - the story's Wolverine, after she died, telling a story about how she once told him a story (present-Wolverine being VO-only).

The framing sequence [-FB] visuals should go shortly after the fight she was talking about [-FB-FB].
JephYork wrote:She's in her Asian body with no Crimson Dawn mark, and she's doing a "covert ops" mission -- although that may be a tongue-in-cheek reference. She appears to have telepathy, not telekinesis. There are no other clues that I can see.

Any ideas?
I'm picking up on the "cheap date" line, overanalysing it, and thinking this could go before she starts going steady with Archangel. And Wolverine needs to be on the team, so that would take it before Fatal Attractions.

How about placing before she starts "flirting" with Cyclops, and before Kwannon shows up, which strains her friendship with Logan. This could be them getting wasted after what happened in X 6-7 (with Betsy feeling Wolverine's near-death, and Wolverine going through his second Weapon X-related thing in a row) and her telling him about something that happened very recently, giving:

PSYLOCKE
[...]
M/CP 89/4
***XU 47-FB-FB
X 5
X 6
X 7
***XU 47-FB
X@ 1
[...]

WOLVERINE
[...]
X 7
***XU 47-FB
[M/CP 101 *or* W2 51]
[...]
A3 51-FB
***XU 47-VO
X 114
[...]

The placement of the (-VO) narration is intended to have it as soon after Wolverine would have heard of her death as possible. Nudge it back a couple of points if need be.

[Incidentally, I'm a tad confused about where the gap in X 7 (from Wolverine's chronology) is for the M/CP story, and why it's plugged in there. Hence the "or".]

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by JephYork » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:27 pm

Later on, various artists had started consistently forgetting to draw the Crimson Dawn tattoo. Which was covered by the catchall "Betsy telepathically hid the mark", like Rachel's tattoos. I figured that by the time of the framing sequence (which, I agree, is also a fb itself), Betsy was doing that in public.

Also, why does the flashback fight have to be soon before the framing sequence? Betsy could tell an old story just as easily as a new one ... and maybe the fact that it was a "covert ops" mission means that she had to wait until it was declassified.

Also, I placed Wolverine's present-day voiceover in the Index already, between XMU #46/2 and 48. Seemed appropriate.

-Jeph!

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Michael » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:41 pm

Somebody wrote: [Incidentally, I'm a tad confused about where the gap in X 7 (from Wolverine's chronology) is for the M/CP story, and why it's plugged in there. Hence the "or".]
I think that it's after the X-Men escape from the Hand and Fenris and before Logan cuts off Matsuo's hand at the cemetery. Maverick mentions having given Logan some information about his missing comrade (who is presumably Nightcrawler) and Logan's in Germany at the start of M/CP 101.

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Somebody » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:58 pm

JephYork wrote:Later on, various artists had started consistently forgetting to draw the Crimson Dawn tattoo. Which was covered by the catchall "Betsy telepathically hid the mark", like Rachel's tattoos. I figured that by the time of the framing sequence (which, I agree, is also a fb itself), Betsy was doing that in public.
Well, firstly she wasn't a telepath by the time you have it placed (c. X 109). TK only.

And secondly, the framing sequence is a flashback to "some time ago". And you're using the lack of a CD tattoo as a placement clue for the -FB-FB. There's no reason NOT to use the lack of a CD tattoo as a placement clue for the framing sequence, and if there's no reason not to, then it should be used as such.
JephYork wrote:Also, why does the flashback fight have to be soon before the framing sequence? Betsy could tell an old story just as easily as a new one ... and maybe the fact that it was a "covert ops" mission means that she had to wait until it was declassified.
The "covert ops" bit, as you noted, seems very tongue-in-cheek, and it isn't as if she's a government agent to have it be classified.

As for why... it's neater to have them closer together, surely - especially since with no CD mark, it should be before UX 328. Saying that no-telepathy/telekinetic Betsy is telepathically shielding the mark when you could trivially place it before she had the tattoo at all is just silly.
JephYork wrote:Also, I placed Wolverine's present-day voiceover in the Index already, between XMU #46/2 and 48. Seemed appropriate.
Fair enough, but where's that? XU 33-onward aren't in the MCP.
Michael wrote:I think that it's after the X-Men escape from the Hand and Fenris and before Logan cuts off Matsuo's hand at the cemetery. Maverick mentions having given Logan some information about his missing comrade (who is presumably Nightcrawler) and Logan's in Germany at the start of M/CP 101.
That seemed the most likely place for a gap - but unless it absolutely had to go in there and could go nowhere else, it's weird that a whole serial is shoved between pages rather than after the end of X 7. Logan goes and buries himself [presumably with Maverick's help] so that "that evening", having got there "before dark" he can surprise Matsuo who's gone there to get the C-synthesiser, and the issue ends with Wolverine still in Germany, "on the outskirts of Berlin".

Plus, he says "I hope the information I passed on regarding your FORMER comrade is demonstrative of my gratitude" [for giving him the C-synthesiser], not "missing", and he could still use any info the following day if it was relevant to Kurt.

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by JephYork » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:31 pm

Fair enough, but where's that? XU 33-onward aren't in the MCP.
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN READING THE INDEX?! *sob* :cry:

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Somebody » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:35 pm

JephYork wrote:
Fair enough, but where's that? XU 33-onward aren't in the MCP.
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN READING THE INDEX?! *sob* :cry:
Yeah, I've got every issue published so far, but "trying to squint through a load of small text in issue summary-centric rather than chronology-centric format" is less hard than "just asking you" - who presumably has the actual chronology to hand! - when it's relevant to the current thread ;)

[And stop trying to change the subject! Why do you feel the need to stick the framing-FB so far after she got the CD tattoo for no particular reason?]

EDIT:
*hunts down Index #11 to find the XU 46-48 run - excluding the Cyclops UX 47/2 story, which I can't find at all - is placed between UX 420 and 421, and more specifically between W2 189 and W3 1.*

I get the reason to place it in what turns out to be more-or-less publication order, with Ye Olde X-Axis saying XU 47 came out the same week as W3 1, but the lack of any sort of context to place such a reminiscence in bugs a tad.

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by JephYork » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:47 pm

I'm not trying to change the subject and I'm not married to the framing sequence's placement. I'm just doing a bajillion things at once right now, so I'm not doing a point-by-point response -- sorry. Keep convincing me.

XMU #47/2 wasn't placed in the monthly Index either -- I couldn't figure it out by the deadline. For the TPB, I have it between X #113 and the Cyclops miniseries -- using the clues that Cyclops is still married to Jean, and mentions "Cerebro" instead of "Cerebra". I theorized that the organ-harvesting boss behind the scenes in that story might be John Sublime, so I placed it shortly before his first appearance.
"trying to squint through a load of small text in issue summary-centric rather than chronology-centric format" is less hard than "just asking you"
Wait until you see how small it is in the TPB... it's a smaller page size AND they had to shrink some of the text to fit some expansions I made to earlier issues. GET YOUR MAGNIFYING GLASSES, KIDS.

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Somebody » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:47 pm

JephYork wrote:I'm not trying to change the subject and I'm not married to the framing sequence's placement. I'm just doing a bajillion things at once right now, so I'm not doing a point-by-point response -- sorry. Keep convincing me.
Thing is... I'm not sure what else to SAY! So I'll just restate my position once more, then - unless someone gives something to reply to :) - get off the stage:

First level (-VO) - the narration. I'd have preferred to find somewhere to give it some context, since XU stories go all over the shop, but I have no major problems with where it's placed.

Third level (-FB-FB) - the fight scene. Psylocke's is Asian in [basically] her Jim Lee leotard, has no CD tattoo and is a telepath - it's a major point that her psychic knife didn't work because the cyborg isn't using his organic brain, leading to her having to win the fight the hard way - and is on some sort of solo mission, presumably sent thus by one of the X-Men leaders. No major placement cues, could go anywhere between c. X 3 and whichever is earlier of UX 328 and the framing sequence (-FB) visuals.

Second level (-FB) - the framing sequence visuals. Psylocke and Wolverine are out drinking. This is explicitly stated not to be an uncommon occurrence ["on occasion - on many occasions in fact"] , with no special significance applied to this particular session beyond "that's the story she told that one time", and to have occurred even before her transmogrification (due to a line saying how she had a higher alcohol tolerance before). She does NOT have the Crimson Dawn tattoo mark on her face, and I see no justification to dismiss this. For me the absolute bounds are:
  1. Later than the -FB-FB, obviously;
  2. Before Psylocke is almost killed by Sabretooth in UX 328, leading to the CD business and that tattoo;
  3. Not during a time when their friendship was strained, as with much of the Revanche business, since they're obviously free with one another;
  4. While Wolverine's healing factor is working, meaning not between X 25 and ~W 88;
  5. Not while either of them are off the team - meaning in practice, since Psylocke was an ever-present between X 1 and UX 328, "not between W 75 and X:PRIME" [a period which largely overlaps with (4)].
  6. Not immediately before [or after?] X 38, where Psylocke has chopped most of her hair off, a fact which is picked up in dialogue by Jean ["[You're] the type who chops ten inches of hair off? I thought it was about time I mentioned the change"] and then forgotten about shortly afterward - UX 319, where her hair's long again, was published just the following month.
In addition, there's certain "maybes":
  1. The "cheap date" line. This could be taken either as a joke, or to imply some sort of casual relationship between the two. If the latter, then it should be placed before UX 319, and possibly outside her extended "flirtation" with Cyclops.
  2. I'd have reservations about placement between X:PRIME and UX 328 given Wolverine's increasing problems with self-control while he's living outside in the period leading up to W 100.
Adding it all up, I think earlier is better than later, and picked the spots I mentioned based on that.
JephYork wrote:XMU #47/2 wasn't placed in the monthly Index either -- I couldn't figure it out by the deadline. For the TPB, I have it between X #113 and the Cyclops miniseries -- using the clues that Cyclops is still married to Jean, and mentions "Cerebro" instead of "Cerebra". I theorized that the organ-harvesting boss behind the scenes in that story might be John Sublime, so I placed it shortly before his first appearance.
It doesn't sound like John Sublime himself to me (whoever it is wants Cyclops' eyes in their own head), but it certainly DOES sound like a U-Man. Shortly after X 113 (since Cyclops' characterisation is closer to Eve of Destruction than Morrison, and him going shopping fits better with the nearly-empty-mansion - with only Cyclops, Xavier, Jean and Wolverine left, as I recall, who are conveniently the ones Cyke namechecks... - they're left with after EoD) seems bang-on.
JephYork wrote:
"trying to squint through a load of small text in issue summary-centric rather than chronology-centric format" is less hard than "just asking you"
Wait until you see how small it is in the TPB... it's a smaller page size AND they had to shrink some of the text to fit some expansions I made to earlier issues. GET YOUR MAGNIFYING GLASSES, KIDS.
Ow!

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by JephYork » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:08 am

Any thoughts on Rampaging Wolverine's fourth story?

Also, we decided that New Avengers: Illuminati #3 occurs after the Beyonder came to Earth and took human form, right -- so after Secret Wars II #2?

I've got issue #1 placed for Prof. X in the Index, but where did we place issues #2 and #4-5?

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Re: A few last X-stories to shovel into the Index...

Post by Michael » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:32 am

Also, we decided that New Avengers: Illuminati #3 occurs after the Beyonder came to Earth and took human form, right -- so after Secret Wars II #2?
Yeah, but I still say it seems weird that this story takes place while Xavier was dying and (a) he shows no signs of it and (b) none of the Illuminati think to ask the Beyonder to cure him.
I've got issue #1 placed for Prof. X in the Index, but where did we place issues #2 and #4-5?
According to Tony's chronology, issue 2 takes place between SECWAR3 and A4 2. Issue 5 takes place between IM:IP 1/2 (11:2-11:5) and SECINVSAGA. Issue 4 takes place between M/DS 2/2 and A3 62. I'm not sure what these would translate to in Xavier's chronology.

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