X-Men: First Class (again)

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Jason Doty
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X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:15 pm

Just was checking out the live X-Men panel at the latest convention over at Newsarama. This came up at the panel
Next audience member up asks where X-Men: First Class fits into continuity. Cebulski said that it "dances between the raindrops," and that it is canon.

Friday March 18, 2011 7:40
7:40 Ketchum said "in some ways, it's almost up to you how you reconcile it with continuity."


I think that pretty much sums up editorial intent. :D

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Hotcharokey 2.0 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:46 am

Already there is a problem with Iceman & Angel #1. The two X-Men battle Groom during spring break. On page 1, Bobby mentions that Wolverine went to Japan, but Wolverine was not a member of the X-Men at that time.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Michael » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:04 am

To be fair, it's possible that this story takes place (a) shortly after Warren and Bobby left the X-Men in UX 94 or (b) while Bobby was in college after he left the X-Men.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by JephYork » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:19 pm

I think that pretty much sums up editorial intent.
Did Cebulski and Ketchum edit X:FC?

That second statement confuses the hell out of me. It's up to each individual reader to make their own determination?

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Hotcharokey 2.0 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:29 pm

To be fair, it's possible that this story takes place (a) shortly after Warren and Bobby left the X-Men in UX 94 or (b) while Bobby was in college after he left the X-Men.
Iceman and Angel are hoping that the Avengers or the Fantastic Four arrive to help them, but on page 12, we see that the Avengers are prisoners of Kang. The members of the Avengers are Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, and Giant Man. Giant man is wearing his red and blue costume that he wore in Avengers #2-14.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:13 pm

Jeph wrote
Did Cebulski and Ketchum edit X:FC? That second statement confuses the hell out of me. It's up to each individual reader to make their own determination?
I'm unsure about the first, but I'm pretty sure his statement was a direct "it's canon," and he is representing Marvel at the panel. The second line confused me as well. As always, I guess Marvel is going to make this vague.

Hotcharokie wrote
Already there is a problem with Iceman & Angel #1. The two X-Men battle Groom during spring break. On page 1, Bobby mentions that Wolverine went to Japan, but Wolverine was not a member of the X-Men at that time.
Yeah, thats what completely upsets me about these series, it always seems to be a small line of dialog that create these problems when 99 % of the book would work otherwise.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by JephYork » Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:34 pm

If he didn't work on the book, it doesn't really matter what he has to say about the canonicity of the book.

I work for Marvel. If I say that Avengers is non-canon, does that hold water?

-Jeph!

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:35 pm

Jeph! wrote
If he didn't work on the book, it doesn't really matter what he has to say about the canonicity of the book.
O.k, to the first part, but the creator's of those titles said they were.

Jeph! wrote
I work for Marvel. If I say that Avengers is non-canon, does that hold water?
If you were on a public panel representing Marvel Comics in a public forum, which is reported on by outside news sources such as CBR, Newsarama, Wizard, ect... I would take that to mean thats Marvel's stance on the mater, unless they later retracted your claim, at least as far as Marvel is concerned.

I just found it amusing that a fan hit them with it, again. Only to have an issue come out the same week from the same series with another huge continuity issue. Also some preview art from X-Men Prelude, shows them once again in their "First Class" outfits.

Maybe since you work for Marvel, you could suggest a "continuity" editorial team, that would eliminate any need for debate about the issue. Since they claim one thing in solicits, interviews, handbook entries, public announcments, and then give us the product which is clearly flawed and could fixed by taking out one line of dialog or name.

I'm all for this being a seperate universe that could be later evaluated like the Ultimate line, Marvel Adventures, 2099, Max, Earth X, or any others.It being "canon" unto itself, does not bother me, its that Marvel just keep announcing otherwise and it keeps it in "limbo" here.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by metaldragon » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:49 am

Just did my analysis of Iceman & Angel 1 in the "Issue Analysis" section of the Forum.

Didn't Wolverine go to Japan in his "Wolverine: First Class" series?
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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by JephYork » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:24 pm

He's gone several times.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by GodRob » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:20 pm

This issue occurs at the exact same moment that:
A: Kang has captured the Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, and Giant-Man)
B: Annihilus has captured the Fantastic Four
C: Sub-Mariner's appearance provokes an immediate response by the US military in the middle of New York City (how long should it take to purchase a bag of bagels?).

Is there ANY point in continuity where these three events have been shown/can happen at the same time?

Annihilus first appeared a few years after Pym had changed from that specific costume, so that would have to be an art error.

They know Wolverine is vacationing in Japan. Since none of the X-Men knew that Wolverine spoke Japanese until Uncanny 118 (Feb '79), this would likely have to occur after that issue. Is it safe to assume that this would also occur before Angel had been transformed into Archangel (approx April '87)?

If the Wolverine reference and the Giant-Man costume are ignored, anytime after FF Annual 6 (Nov '68) could work but I can't find any issues where these events are depicted.

Robert

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by Michael » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:49 pm

GodRob wrote: They know Wolverine is vacationing in Japan. Since none of the X-Men knew that Wolverine spoke Japanese until Uncanny 118 (Feb '79), this would likely have to occur after that issue. Is it safe to assume that this would also occur before Angel had been transformed into Archangel (approx April '87)?
I'm not sure this means the X-Men knew Logan spoke Japanese. I've known people who vacationed in countries without knowing the local language.
But yeah, the dialogue does imply that this is before Warren had metal wings.

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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by metaldragon » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:58 pm

Michael wrote:
GodRob wrote: They know Wolverine is vacationing in Japan. Since none of the X-Men knew that Wolverine spoke Japanese until Uncanny 118 (Feb '79), this would likely have to occur after that issue. Is it safe to assume that this would also occur before Angel had been transformed into Archangel (approx April '87)?
I'm not sure this means the X-Men knew Logan spoke Japanese. I've known people who vacationed in countries without knowing the local language.
But yeah, the dialogue does imply that this is before Warren had metal wings.
Yes, they were doing meta humor. Iceman thinking that Angel with metal wings which could throw knives would be cool and Angel saying that would be ridiculous and against the laws of physics is the clue. Iceman goes on to speculate that Angel's real wings are still underneath the metal and Angel asks how would that work. So yea, just the writer having some fun and obviously before X-Factor.
Last edited by metaldragon on Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: X-Men: First Class (again)

Post by metaldragon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:23 am

GodRob wrote:This issue occurs at the exact same moment that:
A: Kang has captured the Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, and Giant-Man)
B: Annihilus has captured the Fantastic Four
C: Sub-Mariner's appearance provokes an immediate response by the US military in the middle of New York City (how long should it take to purchase a bag of bagels?).

Is there ANY point in continuity where these three events have been shown/can happen at the same time?

Annihilus first appeared a few years after Pym had changed from that specific costume, so that would have to be an art error.

They know Wolverine is vacationing in Japan. Since none of the X-Men knew that Wolverine spoke Japanese until Uncanny 118 (Feb '79), this would likely have to occur after that issue. Is it safe to assume that this would also occur before Angel had been transformed into Archangel (approx April '87)?

If the Wolverine reference and the Giant-Man costume are ignored, anytime after FF Annual 6 (Nov '68) could work but I can't find any issues where these events are depicted.

Robert
Again, Kang is a time traveler and could have captured Giant-Man from an earlier time period from the other Avengers. See my analysis of the issue in the "Issue Analysis" section. I've pointed out where the FF have fought Annihilus there and the roughly corresponding moments in the X-Men's and Avengers issues. We just need an FF guru to sort it out.

Wolverine went to Japan a few times in his Wolverine: First Class series around the time this story probably takes place. Since Warren tells Bobby about Wolverine's trip to Japan, I thought it could fit in the period when Angel briefly rejoined the X-Men after the Champions broke up (UX 132-148) and in fact, could fit around the time Bobby finishes a term paper (he's in university @ that time) and helps out the X-Men against Arcade in UX 145-146. Which makes the whole "spring break" thing make sense. In fact…
metaldragon wrote:Iceman's "university years" took place between CHAMP 1 (Oct 1975) [but I'd place this after PPTSS 18 (May 1978)] and DEF 122 (Aug 1983). For the Avengers that would be: A 171 to A 234 and for the Fantastic Four: FF 194 to FF 257.
and
metaldragon wrote:Let's look at where the FF encountered Annihilus:
FF 181-183 (Apr 1977-June 1977) [probably too early. Angel & Iceman still in Champions]
M/TIO 75 (May 1981)
M/FAN 2/2 (May 1982)
FF 251-FF 254 (Feb 1983-May 1983)
Which I hope narrows things down. In fact, I noticed that the M/TIO 75 issue came out the same month as UX 145 (May 1981)! For where the other issues fall in relation to the X-Men, check out my posting there. :wink:

Curious, has anyone done placements for the Wolverine: First Class issues and do any of his trips to Japan there occur around UX 145?
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