Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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loki
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Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:31 pm

At Jeph's suggestion, I'm bringing a disucssion to the MCP that I began on the Index lists.

There's been a number of stories produced in countries outside the US. While some are not 616 (X-Campus, Hulk manga, either Spider-Man manga, etc), there are others which are part of 616 continuity, and some which need examined to see if they might be. The most obvious example, the Captain Britain stories, are already covered here, and some others are (Europa, Saudade, for example). But many are not. I'm interested in closing that particular gap, and in getting feedback regarding where stuff might fit.

The first one I've looked at is placing the Hulk story in Smash! #38, '66. It's the first UK produced Marvel strip, pre-dating Marvel UK's inception by several years. The placement is actually easy enough, as the strip makes it very clear, so I'm including it mainly for completeness. It's set immediately after the Hulk fought the Avengers in Av #3. So for the Hulk, per the MCP's listing, it would be

A 3 (21 - 25)
Smash! 38
FF 25

The antagonist in the story is a villainous matador named Manuel - this has been confirmed in the handbooks to be Manuel Elongato, aka the Matador, prior to his criminal days. Which means for Matador's MCP listing it would be

Smash! 38
DD 5-FB
DD 5

Next up, Hulk Comic/Hulk Weekly, which had several stories, not just the Black Knight/Captain Britain Otherworld saga. The MCP has that covered for CB and BK, but not for Valinor, Merlyn, Roma, Arthur Pendragon, the elf Jackdaw or Mordred, all of whom also appear. Plus there's the Nethergods, who appear in this story, but are shown to have been bts in a lot of prior BK and CB stories.

Before I get on to those individuals who are missing British appearances, I'd like to discuss amending the placement of CB's appearance in Hulk #279 at the pardoning parade. It's currently placed during his Black Knight saga appearances, and I simply don't think that can work. Having BK and CB snatched out of time and space in the early part of the Otherworld saga for Grandmaster's tournament in CoC, yes, I can see that, but CB then hanging round for the parade? He's largely amnesiac at the time - he's been told who he is, but he doesn't really remember it properly. I think that either it has to go earlier, before Brian tries to return home prior to the Black Knight saga, or it goes after he came home and the costume is wrong (just like he's depicted in the wrong costume for his appearance in Rom). Is there any reason the Black Knight saga couldn't start after Hulk #279? Both CB and Black Knight don't interact much with the rest of the Marvel universe for some time on either side.

At the moment I only have notes for some of the above individuals as to which specific issues of the Otherworld saga they appeared in. I'll try and cover the others as and when I can find time, but for now:

Jackdaw - the MCP lists a Jackdaw II in Xcal #62, which would be Meggan's horse. The elf predates the horse, and the criminal now known as Blackbird. I'd suggest not numbering to begin with, but if you are sticking with that, then the elf is Jackdaw I, Blackbird is II, and the horse is III.

Jackdaw (elf)
HC 57/2
HC 58/2
HC 59/2
HC 60/2
M/SH2 377 (1:1 - 1:8)
M/SH2 385
M/SH2 377 (1:9 - 5:10)
M/SH2 378
M/SH2 380
M/SH2 381
M/SH2 382
M/SH2 383
M/SH2 386
M/SH2 387
M/SH2 388

Roma - amend the current
CB 37
DDS 1
to
CB 37
HC 51/2
HC 54/2
HC 55/2
HC 62/2
DDS 1

Mordred the Evil
Amend the current
M/SH 17
DEF 11
HC 1/2
HC 3/2
HC 4/2
HC 5/2
BK2 1
to
DEF 11
M/SH 17
HC 1/2
HC 3/2
HC 4/2
HC 5/2
HC 7/2
HC 8/2
HC #9/2 BTS
HC 10/2
HC 11/2
HC 26/2 BTS
HC 27/2
HC 28/2
HC 29/2
HC 30/2
HC 42/2
BK2 1

Arthur Pendragon - listing currently ends with
M/SH 17-FB
Following this he appears in
MYSARC:BK
HC 44/2 fb BTS
Rom 37
HC 43/2 fb BTS
HC 59/2
HC 60/2~M/SH2 377
HC 61/2
HC 62/2
HC 63/2
M/SH2 377
DWM 60
M/SH2 381
MWM 13

I'll have to come back to Merlyn and Valinor later.

Ant-Man's story (HC #48-49) has nothing to help place it, bar it being printed immediately following a reprint of Marvel Feature #10. Since Pym had briefly reverted to being Ant-Man around this time, I see no reason not to place the HC story right after this. This would mean that the Yellowjacket listing would be amended to inset the HC stories
M/FEA 10
HC 48/5
HC 49/5
A 139-FB

For the Hulk stories (HC #1-6, 9-20, 26-28), while early issues are self-contained and could be split off from the others, I'd suggest keeping things simple and grouping them together. The later ones follow directly one from one another, and take place over only a couple of days. Only HC #2's story is over any amount of time, as there's a "several days" gap between the main part of the story and the epilogue. The Hulk's handbook bibliography
http://marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibli ... _2007#Hulk
gives a rough region of placement between Incredible Hulk #293 and Incredible Hulk #231. Of these two end points, I'd suggest it should be closer to #231 to keep it close to publication dates. Is there a suitable gap just prior to Incredible Hulk #231?

If #231 doesn't work, I'd considered a placement only a little later, during the week long gap in Incredible Hulk #238 (after he threatens a man driving a truck, and before he stops on Mount Rushmore). If it wasn't for those "several days" gap in HC #2, the entirety of HC's stories would easily fit into less than a week, and this would place them close to the chronological release dates. Plus, he's in the right part of the country at both start and end of these adventures. So if we squint a bit and take HC #2's "several days" to mean no more than three or four, and Hulk #238's "a week later" to mean "a week, plus maybe a couple of extra days", it could work. The next available gap I can see would be between Hulk #243 and 244. There's a ton of other adventures in there, and gaps between them. The narrative given in #243 covering what Hulk is getting up to outside his own magazine suggests that it should take place after the DD #163 appearance, but DD flows into IM (Hulk is
in New York in both stories, which doesn't fit with him running out into the US wilderness and back between these). If we went with this placement, I'd suggest just before Hulk Annual #9, which begins with Banner driving back to NYC from the midwest, putting the HC stories between DD #87 and Hulk Annual #9.

Finally for the moment, the Nick Fury (HC 1-19) storyline takes place over a week or two, max. The only in-story evidence for placement is that Fury is dating Laura Brown (but it's not too serious as Fury also hits on another female agent at the end of the story), that Jimmy Woo, Gaffer, Val, Gabe and Dum Dum are all active agents, and that Fury and SHIELD believe the Yellow Claw is dead. Circumstantial evidence: the stories in HC immediately led into reprints of Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #7 (1968), which might suggest putting Fury's Hulk Comic appearances between NFAoS 6 and 7. However, Nick Fury's handbook entry broadly places this between MTU 95 (sentence prior to discussing his UK stories mentions working with Mockingbird to root out corrupt SHIELD agents) and W/NF (sentence after mentions learning about his son Mikel), while the Master List places it more concisely as being between CA 279 and Incredible Hulk 279. I'm loathe to contradict that unless the placement doesn't work. So the questions are: does that latter placement fit, and if so how does then which issues do the HC stories fit between in Laura Brown, Jimmy Woo, Gaffer, Val, Gabe, Dum Dum and Yellow Claw's chronologies?

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by Michael » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:22 pm

loki wrote: Before I get on to those individuals who are missing British appearances, I'd like to discuss amending the placement of CB's appearance in Hulk #279 at the pardoning parade. It's currently placed during his Black Knight saga appearances, and I simply don't think that can work. Having BK and CB snatched out of time and space in the early part of the Otherworld saga for Grandmaster's tournament in CoC, yes, I can see that, but CB then hanging round for the parade? He's largely amnesiac at the time - he's been told who he is, but he doesn't really remember it properly. I think that either it has to go earlier, before Brian tries to return home prior to the Black Knight saga, or it goes after he came home and the costume is wrong (just like he's depicted in the wrong costume for his appearance in Rom). Is there any reason the Black Knight saga couldn't start after Hulk #279? Both CB and Black Knight don't interact much with the rest of the Marvel universe for some time on either side.
H2 279 used to be placed after Brian came home- when Jeph and I last discussed it, we agreed that it took place in between Daredevils 4 and 5 and the art was wrong:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5119
The problem with the Black Knight saga starting after H2 279 is that Brian's obviously been gone for months, if not years, when he returns home in Daredevils. There's no way that Brian lost his memory after H2 279- Daredevils 9 describes H2 279 as happening "last month".

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:25 pm

You're right. I'd forgotten that the Hulk's pardon got referenced. So yes, barring time travel or imposters, neither of which would have any evidence to support them, it's got to be after he returns home at the start of Daredevils, and Hulk #279 simply depicted the wrong costume.

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:52 pm

It was niggling at me, and I knew there was a problem with placing H2 279 between Daredevils 4 and 5. This is the only available gap in the Jaspers storyline - in DDS 5 Captain Britain is captured by the Special Executive, goes to the Hub for Saturnyne's trial, returns home a few hours later, gets into a fight with the Fury that night and goes on the run as Jaspers takes over the country. Before things end Merlyn is dead. Which means that Captain Britain meeting Captain America in CA 305-307 is assumed to take place in this same gap, because CB calls on Merlyn to remove Modred at the end of CA 306. Problem is, the dialogue in Jaspers speech confirms it's been less than a month between H279 and DDS 5 (Jaspers makes the speech in DDS 9, but only a few hours pass between DDS 5 and DDS 9). And Cap was at the Hulk's pardoning too. So, if we take things at face value, all the following stories happen to Captain America in the space of a single month:

H2 279
M/TIO 92
FF 250
M/TIO@ 7
M/TIO 96
FF 258-FB
V&SW 3
ASM@ 16
A 227
H2 281
H2 282
H2 283
H2 284
FF 258
CA 280
A 228
A 229
A 230
M/TU 127
M/TU 128
CA 281
CA 282
CA 283
CA 284
CA 285
A 231
A 232
SENTRY 2-FB
A@ 12
CA@ 7
A 233
FF 256 ~ A 233
A 233
A 233 ~ FF 256
A 234
IM 172
T 334
A 235
HAWK 3
A 236
A 237
CA 286
CA 287
CA 288
CA 289
CA 289/2
CA 290 (1 - 5)
M/FAN 12/2
FAL 3
FAL 4
CA4 8-FB
CA 290 (6 - 22)
CA 291
CA 292-FB
CA 292 (1 - 12)
[CA 600/3 (7:3)-FB]
CA 292 (13)
PPTSS 89
CA 292 (14 - 22)
A 241
A 242 (1 - 18)
CA 292 (23) ~ A 242 (19 - 20)
M/SHSW 1
M/SHSW 2
T 383-FB
M/SHSW 3
M/SHSW 4
M/SHSW 5
M/SHSW 6
M/SHSW 7
M/SHSW 8
M/SHSW 9
M/SHSW 10
M/SHSW 11
M/SHSW 12
A 243
ASM 252
A 243
ASM 252
A 243 ~ IM 182
IM 182
A 243
COH 3
1985 6
1985 6-FB
A 244
A 245
AF 10
A@ 13
M/GN 17
WM 1
CA 293
CA 294
CA 295
CA 296
CA 350/2-FB
CA 297
CA 298
CA 299
CA 300
CA 301
A 251
UX 190
UX 191
M/FAN 18
M/FAN 29/2
CA 302-FB-OP
CA 302
CA 303
CA 304
A 252
A 253
A 254
A 255
ROM 65
ROM 66
A 255
CA 305

Not too likely.

The only thing that makes everyone place CA 305-307 in the DDS 4 and 5 gap is the appearance of Merlyn. If it wasn't for Merlyn, it'd easily fit post-Jaspers warp. Way back when I was originally read those Captain America issues when they came out, and I was trying to reconcile them using Merlyn in a story two years after he'd died in the UK stories, I figured that it wasn't Merlyn, but Roma who CB called on. She'd have taken Modred just as readily as Merlyn would have. CB told Modred he'd call Merlyn because Modred would have thought Brian was lying if he said that Merlyn was dead, and he needed Modred to stop demolishing London and give back his costume; when CB tried to call Roma, his telepathic message asked her to show up looking like Merlyn because, again, if she didn't then Modred would believe he'd been tricked. There's internal dialogue where Brian asks himself why Merlyn didn't respond, which is the counter to this, but it's easier to discount that/swap Roma for Merlyn (in the same way we assume costume errors for CB's Rom and Hulk 279 appearances) than it is to try and fit in over 100 issues worth of Captain America appearances into a single calendar month. And when "Merlyn" does show, it's actually Roma, but at that point CB isn't in the mood to stop and explain to Cap the truth. That was my original theory, from way back when, and I'm tempted to go back to it. (And yes, I know Merlyn didn't really die at the end of the Jaspers Saga, but there's no way he'd go to all that trouble to fake his death and then break cover like that so soon after).

As I see it, the options are:
Hulk 279 happens much earlier than currently placed in CB's chronology, completely before the Otherworld saga. But this clashes with dialogue by Jaspers, so if we go with this, then we have to assume that when Jaspers said "Last month, President Ronald Reagan granted a pardon to... the Hulk." what he actually meant was "last year" or something like that. However, there might be other complications trying to put Hulk 279 earlier, as we'd be placing it prior to CoC as well, with implications for the likes of Sabra, who turned up in both comics.
OR
Hulk 279 and CA 305-307 both take place in the DDS 4 and 5 gap in same month as one another - see above for the problem with that.
OR
Hulk 279 takes place in the DDS 4 and 5 gap, while CA 305-307 takes place after Merlyn's seeming demise, perhaps between CB2 1 and 2 (the closest available gap period in CB's narrative to the publication date of CA 305-307), or else between MWM 13 (Funeral on Otherworld) and MWM 14 (which dialogue establishes as being several months later - that might work better because CB didn't have Meggan or Betsy around, who otherwise might arguably be expected to get involved in fight with Modred). And the fix here is that it isn't Merlyn but Roma acting as Merlyn.

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by Michael » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:20 pm

Placing H2 279 before COC would complicate things immensely. For example, the Hulk is savage in COC but has Banner's intellect in H2 279. The simplest explanation is that H2 279 and CA 305-307 both take place in the gap between DDS 4 and 5 and Jaspers misspoke. (He said "month" when he meant "year".)

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:47 am

Michael wrote:Placing H2 279 before COC would complicate things immensely. For example, the Hulk is savage in COC but has Banner's intellect in H2 279. The simplest explanation is that H2 279 and CA 305-307 both take place in the gap between DDS 4 and 5 and Jaspers misspoke. (He said "month" when he meant "year".)
But that would still make the gap between DDS 4 and 5 massive in order to fit all of Captain America's adventures that take place between H2 279 and CA 305, which still doesn't work. In DDS 5 Alison Double is still recuperating from the psychic trauma of losing her friends in DDS 3, Tom Lennox is still a very uncomfortable house guest, etc. There are various indicators that, while a short gap is viable, a long one isn't.

If we are assuming Jaspers misspoke, the need to have H2 279 that close to DDS 9 goes out the window. Is there any reason why both H2 279 and COC couldn't move to before the Otherworld Saga? Black Knight and Captain Britain might see one another at the gathering of heroes, but I don't recall much, if any, personal interaction, and when they first meet in the Otherworld Saga there's nothing to say they couldn't have met previously: CB is amnesiac, so he wouldn't recall any past meetings, and BK knows of CB but doesn't recognise him out of costume. And with BK realising CB is amnesiac around the same time he recognises who CB is, there would be no reason for BK to say anything like "Hey, remember we met when the Grandmaster..."

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by Michael » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:54 am

But in Mighty World of Marvel 8, it was established that Jasper's power was affecting people's sense of time- nobody could remember if he was elected last week or months ago. If we assume that Jasper's power was already starting to affect people's sense of time in DDS 5, then we can easily explain any inconsistencies away.
I'm not disputing that Brian was probably being deceptive in CA 306- we've seen him ask Roma to track down Betsy when she wasn't wearing a costume, so he probably knows he doesn't need his amplifier suit to summon Roma or Merlyn- but I don't see why Roma would wait until Mordred was unconscious to appear and then show up as Merlyn.

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:21 am

For Jaspers' power to explain away that inconsistency, we'd have to believe it was already affecting time in DDS 4. The problem isn't DDS 5 on, it's that the gap between DDS 4 and 5 can't fit over 100 issues worth of appearances for Captain America. The time distortion experienced in the UK under Jaspers made those within feel like much longer had passed for them, allowing Jaspers to rapidly rise to power, rather than slowing down the UK relative to everyone else - if it had been the other way around, people outside the affected area would have noticed something weird happening with the UK.

Apart from the "month ago" comment from Jaspers, which we've already said we'd have to discount as in error if we are to try and fit in all those Cap appearances, what evidence is there that H2 279 has to happen during the DDS run (and CoC during the Otherworld Saga), rather than both happening prior to Otherworld. Why can't CoC and H2 279 happen between H2 250 and Brian returning home in HC 42/3 fb? And for Black Knight, why can't CoC happen between A 226 and HC 1/2? It'd eliminate the need for Grandmaster to snatch the pair of them out of the middle of a fairly tight storyline, which was an artificial assumption made it squeeze CoC in during the Otherworld Saga, and it'd eliminate needing to blame an art error on CB's outfit in H2 279. It seems to me that if the choice is between invalidating a couple of words of dialogue vs. invalidating art AND trying to fit CoC into a storyline where there isn't really a proper gap AND trying to also fit hundreds of issues worth of one character's appearances into a single issue gap of another character's, then the dialogue should be the loser. Remember that Captain Britain was in costume, but was largely amnesiac at the point in time where he's currently supposed to have taken part in CoC, which doesn't fit with how he was portrayed.

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:50 am

Bump.

No one else has an opinion? Or did I make the initial post too big and wide reaching? Should I split this into individual threads for the different titles?

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by LordZorn » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:48 pm

Laufeyson<G>:

I heartily agree with part 1 of your post and bemoan it took this for Smash 38 to be considered for inclusion in the Project. As I am not a Captain Britain expert, I will leave that fascinating enigma to you and others to solve. As for Part 2, my questions are these:
What were the factors that led Marvel's bibliographers to insert the HCWs after H2 293-FB<G> in the first place??? And, given Russ oft-stated preference for placing books as close to their publication date as possible, would it not make sense/be possible to place the HCWs either in some suitable cranny of time in the TTA "sector" or soon after, in/around HFFF(when the Hulk seems to be haplessly wandering the world??? Just another possibility to think about...

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:33 pm

LordZorn wrote:Laufeyson<G>:

I heartily agree with part 1 of your post and bemoan it took this for Smash 38 to be considered for inclusion in the Project. As I am not a Captain Britain expert, I will leave that fascinating enigma to you and others to solve. As for Part 2, my questions are these:
What were the factors that led Marvel's bibliographers to insert the HCWs after H2 293-FB<G> in the first place??? And, given Russ oft-stated preference for placing books as close to their publication date as possible, would it not make sense/be possible to place the HCWs either in some suitable cranny of time in the TTA "sector" or soon after, in/around HFFF(when the Hulk seems to be haplessly wandering the world??? Just another possibility to think about...
Belatedly coming back to this. The HCW's for Hulk were placed close to publication date - they were late 1970s comics, not published near the TTA era.

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by tony ingram » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:24 pm

Fascinating. I'm glad to see both the Smash! strip and the lesser known Hulk Comic ones being given some recognition. Has the Timesmasher strip from Rampage Magazine been included, too? It isn't obviously linked to the rest o the Marvel U, but there is a sneaky link between it and the Captain Britain story in MSH #377.

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by loki » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:22 am

Time Smasher is recognised as being 616, and is mentioned in Merlyn's handbook entry. It's not on MCP yet, and we hadn't gotten as far as discussing it here. It's going to have minimal impact on the chronologies here - most of the characters in the story have not been seen before or since. The only ones who do turn up elsewhere, Captain Britain and Merlyn, are easily placed - for CB it is a bts appearance during MSH 377, either before or after MSH 385's Binary Beings story (a toss up which). For Merlyn it's after MSH 377, and before his next appearance in DWM 60 (which isn't listed here yet - still have to discuss and incorporate Merlyn's Doctor Who appearances), which in turn is prior Merlyn's bts in MSH 382 (which is listed here).

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by JephYork » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:28 am

What's this now?

-Jeph!

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Re: Marvel stories set in 616, produced outside the US

Post by tony ingram » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:05 am

loki wrote:Time Smasher is recognised as being 616, and is mentioned in Merlyn's handbook entry. It's not on MCP yet, and we hadn't gotten as far as discussing it here. It's going to have minimal impact on the chronologies here - most of the characters in the story have not been seen before or since. The only ones who do turn up elsewhere, Captain Britain and Merlyn, are easily placed - for CB it is a bts appearance during MSH 377, either before or after MSH 385's Binary Beings story (a toss up which). For Merlyn it's after MSH 377, and before his next appearance in DWM 60 (which isn't listed here yet - still have to discuss and incorporate Merlyn's Doctor Who appearances), which in turn is prior Merlyn's bts in MSH 382 (which is listed here).
thanks Loki, you guys are doing an amazing job here! I thought I was the only one who still remembered that story and its connection to the good Captain.

Have you gotten around to Assassin-8 yet?
Last edited by tony ingram on Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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