Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

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Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Frans » Tue May 01, 2012 3:26 pm

Where exactly can this series be placed. According to #9 the whole story (except for the last pages) happens before Spider-Island, Schism and The Return of the Human Torch. Also it then should happen after Fear Itself. For X-Men chronology you could put it before Schism, but I'm not sure if this should be placed before or after X-Men 16-19 (X-Men and FF team-up, including Doom).

What I've understood, but I'm not a frequent reader of FF,there seem to be problems with the placing of Doom's appearances in ACC and FF. Also Wonder Man seems to act out of place and not seems to be in line with the Avengers-Annuals. Anyone has any ideas?

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Spider-Man » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Tom Brevoort said that Children's Crusade takes place before Doom joins the Future Foundation in FF #1. So that would mean that it takes place before X-Men 16-19 too.

As for the Avengers/New Avengers annuals, they specify on the recap page that they take place before Fear Itself, and thus before Children's Crusade too. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense considering Simon's behavior, but it wouldn't the other way around either, since characters in the annual still treat Wanda's disappearance like some unexplained mystery.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Somebody » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:41 pm

Spider-Man wrote:Tom Brevoort said that Children's Crusade takes place before Doom joins the Future Foundation in FF #1. So that would mean that it takes place before X-Men 16-19 too.
Wait... that pushes it back before Fall of the Hulks/World War Hulks, since Doom suffers brain damage in that, which Valeria promising to fix is the reason for his joining the FF in the first place.

Which means A:CC takes place before Hulk issues from December 2009, but between X-Factor issues from September 2011.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Michael » Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:53 pm

It can't take place before Fall of the Hulks- Children's Crusade takes place after Siege and Fall of the Hulks is definitely pre-Siege.
Keep in mind that Wanda and Doom spend much of Children's Crusade interacting with a force that can alter reality- that could easily explain Doom's lack of brian damage in Children's Crusade.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:02 pm

O.K, I think I got this figured out as far as FF is concerned. FF no.1 (p.1-20) happen before fear itself, FF no.1 (p.21-23) and 2-15, take place after Fear Itself, but before Children's Crusade, with a gap before All Hope lies in Doom to accommodate the X-Men arc where they team-Up.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Somebody » Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:44 pm

Michael wrote:Keep in mind that Wanda and Doom spend much of Children's Crusade interacting with a force that can alter reality- that could easily explain Doom's lack of brian damage in Children's Crusade.
Nope - Doom's drain bamage explicitly precludes him using sorcery (cite: FF 02: "Victor's damage is confined to two specific areas of his brain... which explains his reduced intelligence and why he can no longer perform the Dark Arts."), which he does throughout A:CC, notably in neutering Wiccan, long before the Life Force comes back into it.

Here's the layout:
*DoomWar
*H2 606 - Doom is temporarily brain-drained & captured by the Intelligencia.
*H2 609 - Doom does permanent damage to his brain in trying to steal the collective brainpower of Reed Richards & co, and is left unable to divide 301 by 30.
*Siege
*F4 583 - Valeria teleports in on Doom, who has decided to abdicate in favour of Kristoff since he feels "weak" owing to his brain damage and is having flashbacks to H2 608-609. She promise
*F4 588 - Six days after the "death" of the Human Torch, Kristoff is crowned as Doom watches from the shadows.
*FF 1 - Doom joins Future Foundation, after Reed is convinced by his dad & daughter that they'll need a functional Doom.
*FF 2 - The FF restore Doom's brain by copying the deleted information from Kristoff.

Looking at Doom's role in the current Incredible Hulk volume while wearing his FF white costume, I'm not entirely convinced A:CC can't go somewhere during Doom's spell with the FF.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:37 am

I have the bulk of Crusade between Siege and F4 583. Maybe Doom's brain damage manifested itself inconsistently for a while, with some lucid moments of intelligence interspersed in there. One of those moments was the couple of days of Children's Crusade. Finally, the condition worsened and forced Doom to step down from the throne in F4 583.
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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Jason Doty » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:34 am

That sounds good. So, ignore the Doom brain damage and Captain America costume. When you say the bulk of it, are we talking 1-9 (p.1-?), or is there a break elsewhere in the story. Also that is going to push a lot of X-Factor issues forward and the Avengers Annuals.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Spider-Man » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:23 pm

Doesn't that still place Children's Crusade before Three and Fear Itself, though? Cap's costume isn't a big deal-- Jim Cheung admitted that he drew Iron Man in outdated armor by mistake-- but there are a number of other reasons why placing A:CC before FF #587 and FI causes problems:

*The Avengers Annuals, which takes place only shortly before FI, must take place before A:CC for the reasons I mentioned above.
*Thor is conspicuously absent from A:CC. (Admittedly, this isn't that big of a deal on its own.)
*Johnny Storm is considered dead during the events of A:CC, as confirmed by some of the dialogue.
*The end of the story segues into Spider-Island and Schism, which both happen after FI.
*The end of the story mentions the Human Torch's return, which obviously has to take place after his initial "death."
*Tom Brevoort confirmed that A:CC takes place after FI. (I know his statements shouldn't be taken as objective facts, but it's worth taking into consideration.)
*When A:CC was first coming out, Allen Heinberg said in an interview that the story would have certain "hints" about where the Marvel Universe would be in the near future. Taking things like Thor's absence into account, it seems like the author's original intent was to have A:CC take place after the events of FI. (Again, I know authorial intent isn't everything, but it really seems worth taking into account.)

I would place A:CC at some point after Fear Itself, but before Spider-Island. As for Doom, does he have to be the reigning monarch of Latveria during A:CC? He could still be living in Latveria even after stepping down from power. Is there any dialogue in A:CC where he unambiguously refers to himself as the current political leader of Latveria? (I don't have the issues on me right now, so I can't check myself.) There's still the problem of him using magic, but as Somebody pointed out, that would be a problem either way. (As a possible explanation, maybe the magic he's using is actually the Scarlet Witch's? Even before the Life Force ritual, Wanda's presence could be used to explain a lot.)

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:11 pm

Jason Doty wrote:
When you say the bulk of it, are we talking 1-9 (p.1-?), or is there a break elsewhere in the story.
I have all of A:CC through page 15 of issue #9 before Fear Itself.
The first break is between pages 15-16 of A:CC 9.
16:1 occurs during Spider-Island, then another break.
16:2 occurs the same night as X-Men: Schism #1. Then another break.
16:3 occurs ahortly after Johnny's return in FF 604. Then another break.
16:4-20:2 occurs "months" after the first 15 pages of A:CC 9.

Spider-Man wrote:
*The Avengers Annuals, which takes place only shortly before FI, must take place before A:CC for the reasons I mentioned above.
*Thor is conspicuously absent from A:CC. (Admittedly, this isn't that big of a deal on its own.)
*Johnny Storm is considered dead during the events of A:CC, as confirmed by some of the dialogue.
*The end of the story segues into Spider-Island and Schism, which both happen after FI.
*The end of the story mentions the Human Torch's return, which obviously has to take place after his initial "death."
Hmm. I figure Wonder Man's vendetta against the Avengers in the annuals has to take place after his appearances in the "bulk" of A:CC.

I figure Thor took a long while between coming "back to life" and reconnecting with the Avengers. Assisting with Fallen Asgard...stuff like that.

I have the bulk of A:CC occuring before Johnny's death. Then Johnny dies. Then Fear Itself. Then Spider-Island. Then Schism. Then Johnny's return.

Your tie-ins are explained by the breaks outlined above.

Spider-Man wrote:
*Tom Brevoort confirmed that A:CC takes place after FI.
Well, the last bits do. Does that count?
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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:38 am

Regarding the placement of the bulk of this series relative to New Avengers Annual vol. 2 #1 and Avengers Annual vol. 2 #1 (discussed as part of another thread)...

Despite creator statements, it's really hard to place Children's Crusade after those annuals. First, in New Avengers Annual, Wonder Man states unequivocally that Wanda is still alive; he'd know that first-hand from Children's Crusade. (Sure, it was presumed that Wanda was alive and her location unknown prior to Crusade -- Hawkeye had seen her but kept the info to himself -- but Children's Crusade flushed her out.)

Second, Simon Williams crossed a line in those annuals, and his relationship to the Avengers could not be the same after that. I find it hard to think that the Avengers would call on him for help, as they do in Children's Crusade, and that he would respond, as he does in CC, after those annuals. Simon does tell Wanda in A:CC 9 that she's better off not returning to the Avengers, but that's about the extent of ill feeling Simon displays toward his former teammates in that series. Conversely, the Avengers don't display the anger and resentment toward Simon in A:CC that you'd expect if A:CC occurred after the annuals.

I have a feeling that Simon's last appearance should be Avengers Annual v2 #1 and that this will be borne out by whatever his next appearance may be, following his escape from Avengers custody.
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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Michael » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:55 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:Second, Simon Williams crossed a line in those annuals, and his relationship to the Avengers could not be the same after that. I find it hard to think that the Avengers would call on him for help, as they do in Children's Crusade, and that he would respond, as he does in CC, after those annuals. Simon does tell Wanda in A:CC 9 that she's better off not returning to the Avengers, but that's about the extent of ill feeling Simon displays toward his former teammates in that series. Conversely, the Avengers don't display the anger and resentment toward Simon in A:CC that you'd expect if A:CC occurred after the annuals.

I have a feeling that Simon's last appearance should be Avengers Annual v2 #1 and that this will be borne out by whatever his next appearance may be, following his escape from Avengers custody.
Simon has a pattern of acting like a jerk and getting his friends to forgive him. Busiek stated that explicitly, and Bendis apparently shares Busiek's take on the matter. Simon's relationship with his fellow Avengers doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

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Re: Placement of Avengers Children's Crusade

Post by Frans » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:24 pm

Michael wrote:
Paul Bourcier wrote:Second, Simon Williams crossed a line in those annuals, and his relationship to the Avengers could not be the same after that. I find it hard to think that the Avengers would call on him for help, as they do in Children's Crusade, and that he would respond, as he does in CC, after those annuals. Simon does tell Wanda in A:CC 9 that she's better off not returning to the Avengers, but that's about the extent of ill feeling Simon displays toward his former teammates in that series. Conversely, the Avengers don't display the anger and resentment toward Simon in A:CC that you'd expect if A:CC occurred after the annuals.

I have a feeling that Simon's last appearance should be Avengers Annual v2 #1 and that this will be borne out by whatever his next appearance may be, following his escape from Avengers custody.
Simon has a pattern of acting like a jerk and getting his friends to forgive him. Busiek stated that explicitly, and Bendis apparently shares Busiek's take on the matter. Simon's relationship with his fellow Avengers doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
True, but he was imprisoned by the Avengers. His position towards the Avengers was hostile and the Avengers didn't understand him. And at the end he escaped their custody.

For these reasons it would be a long stretch if the Avengers ask him for help (an escaped prisoner) to find the Scarlet Witch AND they don't address any of the happenings in the Annuals or the imprisonment or the escape or his "sudden" change of heart? I fully agree with Paul Bourcier to place the Annuals after Children's Crusade.

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