Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

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Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:12 am

Has anyone yet discussed which comes first -- Wolverine v4 #10-16, where he kills the Mongrels and goes into self-imposed exile, or the Fear Itself event?

Wolverine v4 #16 has a whole host of guest-stars, all interviewed by Melita Garner. You'd think they would help nail down placement really well -- but they're just confusing me.

Arguments for placement *before* Fear Itself:

- Thor is here. He "died" at the end of Fear Itself, and didn't return until Mighty Thor #12 or so -- published well after this Wolverine arc.

- Colossus has hair here -- placing this before he got Juggernaut powers in Fear Itself. (Though this could be written off as an art error.)


Arguments for placement *after* Fear Itself:

- Captain America's back in his original costume -- which means Steve has taken up the mantle again, after Bucky's death in Fear Itself. (Or, heck -- this could actually be Bucky-Cap, either wearing the classic costume for some reason, or mis-drawn in the classic costume...)

- Puck is alive, and he returned during Fear Itself. (However, he didn't actually come back to life at that exact time ... he had already returned beforehand, and Alpha Flight only found out about it during Fear Itself. He could have appeared in Wolverine #16 prior to his public AF return, so this clue is kind of weak.)


So which is it? Does this take place *so long after* Fear Itself that Thor has returned? Or does it take place beforehand, and we have to squint at Cap and Puck's appearances?

I'm leaning towards "beforehand" right now. The final page of Wolvie #16 leads straight into X-Men: Schism, which is after Fear Itself ... but there could simply be a lengthy gap in this issue. (And in fact, one is suggested -- on the second-to-last page, we see brief flashes of Wolvie battling alongside the Avengers and the X-Men.)

What do you guys think? And, can we glean any other clues from any other characters' status quos?

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:22 am

More thoughts: if this does occur before Fear Itself, then which Captain America are we seeing here? Which event is more likely:

- Steve Rogers put on the classic suit, borrowed the shield from Bucky, and cameo'd in this issue...

- or, it's actually Bucky! But the artist drew the wrong costume (OR, Bucky is wearing the classic costume for some reason)

You guys have read more Secret Avengers and Captain America comics than I have. Which is more likely? That Steve would suit up and take the shield back for a bit? Or that Bucky would wear/be drawn in the old suit?

I'm thinking that it's Bucky here, mainly because of the shield. But I'd love your input. Thanks!

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:58 am

I was under the impression that this arc happens after Fear Itself, and right before Schism.

If it's classic suit Cap, then it's Steve Rogers. Steve basically refused to put on the Cap suit until Bucky "died" during Fear Itself, and Bucky never wore the original suit because that was Steve's suit.

How long does it take for Thor #1-12 to happen? Is it one long story?

But yeah, if "classic" Cap and Thor both appear at the same time, then it's after Fear Itself and after Thor #12.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:31 am

Disclaimer: I don't own these issues of Wolverine.

Only Thor #8-12 occur after Fear Itself and take all of one or two days to occur. Thor #12.1 may occur the day after, Thor #13 perhaps the day after that (the All-Mother welcomes Thor back in this issue), and Thor #14-17 the day after that. I'd be inclined to place Thor in W4 16 after Thor #17.

So yes, I'd recommend placement of W4 16 after Fear Itself and chalk up Colossus's hair as an art error.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:52 pm

Wait -- so Thor's only dead for two days after Fear Itself? Seriously??

What was the first non-Thor comic to acknowledge his return? Was it a big deal? Did the Avengers say "oh my God, Thor, you're alive!" -- because Thor interacts with the other Avengers in W4 #16, so it would have to occur after those books too. (And the follow-up question is, can all of those occur before Schism?)

Hmm. Also, white Nick Fury is here. I was under the impression that Marvel retired him shortly after Fear Itself in favor of his son, the black Nick Fury Jr. When did that happen, relative to Thor's public return and/or Schism -- and can white Nick make appearances after his replacement?

Also: Cap's shield doesn't have the golden crack that it got after Fear Itself. How long did that little addition last?

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Frans » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:00 pm

Interesting! I've always assumed Wolverine 10-16 to happen before Fear Itself, but indeed the last panels of 16 are the same as in Schism 1.

Other important point to have the arc before Fear Itself
Daimon Hellstrom makes an appearance in Wolverine 16 amongst the heroes. In Fear Itself The Fearless he turns over to the dark side and helps Sin collect the hammers. So it would seem odd to have Daimon at his birthday party. Therefore it's becoming less plausible to have it after FI.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:23 pm

Hmm. Well, first off it's not Wolverine's birthday party. (You're thinking of Wolverine #5.1.) It's a group of heroes that goes to the Yukon to remind Wolverine that he's a hero, and ask him to come home.

And also, Daimon *isn't with* that group. He only appears earlier in the issue, in one panel during a montage of characters being interviewed by Melita Garner.

Melita met Daimon back in Wolverine v4 #3-6, when he helped exorcise the demons possessing Wolvie. So I'd think that, even if he had become a villain at that point, Melita would still be able to call him up and get a sound bite out of him.

And didn't he show up, heroic again without explanation, in Venom #13.1-13.4?

I honstly don't know which side I'm advocating for anymore. I'd like to hear some more details on when Thor returned, and when/how the other books reacted to that return.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:36 pm

According to Paul B. over in the Thor in Avenging/Amazing Spider-Man thread:
Paul Bourcier wrote:Okay, so what about Thor? He returns to the Avengers in a flashback in Avengers v5 #25.
He goes into more detail over there, but it's supposed to be the Avengers finding out Thor is alive (I think), but since it's a Bendis comic, it leaves no room for the rest of the Marvel Universe to happen (Meaning, Fear Itself happens days before Avengers vs. X-Men). So really, this flashback is just Thor officially rejoining the team.

The link also goes into how Avenging and Amazing Spider-Man fits in with other Marvel events, and how Spider-Man losing and regaining his Spider-Sense plays into Thor's chronology.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:35 pm

JephYork wrote:Also, white Nick Fury is here. I was under the impression that Marvel retired him shortly after Fear Itself in favor of his son, the black Nick Fury Jr. When did that happen, relative to Thor's public return and/or Schism -- and can white Nick make appearances after his replacement?
He's still active and free to appear. This isn't a problem. He's not dead or anything, he's just not as "public" as he used to be.
JephYork wrote:And didn't he show up, heroic again without explanation, in Venom #13.1-13.4?
Hellstorm did appear in those Venom issues, but he was questioning his heroism. I'm fuzzy on the details of his surrounding appearances, but I remember it being a possibly tricky placement no matter what.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by JephYork » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:49 am

Okay, I checked out Avengers v4 #25, and the flashback certainly doesn't read like a big huge revelation that Thor has returned to life. Cap says "Thor, thank God you're back" -- but it's because Cap's overworked and downtrodden and needs a pick-me-up -- NOT because he's overjoyed that his friend isn't dead.

And then Thor apologizes that "my travels have kept me away for so long" -- which reads to me as "I came back to life a while ago, and you're aware of that fact already, but I haven't been able to return to the Avengers until now for other reasons."

So -- that's the ONLY non-"Mighty Thor" comic where Thor's return is acknowledged in any way?

Related question: did any comics set after Fear Itself show characters mourning Thor, or mentioning that he was dead? If so -- we'd need to place this Wolverine arc after those issues, as well. (And hope that they all occur pre-Schism.)

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:42 am

Jeph wrote:
Okay, I checked out Avengers v4 #25, and the flashback certainly doesn't read like a big huge revelation that Thor has returned to life. Cap says "Thor, thank God you're back" -- but it's because Cap's overworked and downtrodden and needs a pick-me-up -- NOT because he's overjoyed that his friend isn't dead.

And then Thor apologizes that "my travels have kept me away for so long" -- which reads to me as "I came back to life a while ago, and you're aware of that fact already, but I haven't been able to return to the Avengers until now for other reasons."
That's the way I read it, too. I think there's a span of time between Thor's return from the dead and his return to the Avengers.

Jeph wrote:
So -- that's the ONLY non-"Mighty Thor" comic where Thor's return is acknowledged in any way?
I think so. Thor does appear in other comics, of course, but no big deal is made of his return in those books.

Jeph wrote:
Related question: did any comics set after Fear Itself show characters mourning Thor, or mentioning that he was dead? If so -- we'd need to place this Wolverine arc after those issues, as well. (And hope that they all occur pre-Schism.)
I'm not aware of any non-Thor comics in which characters refer to his being dead.
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by DonCampbell » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:24 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:Jeph wrote:
Related question: did any comics set after Fear Itself show characters mourning Thor, or mentioning that he was dead? If so -- we'd need to place this Wolverine arc after those issues, as well. (And hope that they all occur pre-Schism.)
I'm not aware of any non-Thor comics in which characters refer to his being dead.
As I recall, a spell was cast in Mighty Thor #8 (during or just after Thor's funeral) which caused everyone to forget that a god named Thor had ever existed. Instead, everyone now "remembered" the adventures of a God of Thunder named Tanarus. And since Tanarus was still alive, there was no reason for anyone to be mourning him. The spell was broken (in Mighty Thor #12) after Tanarus had been exposed as Ulik and defeated by a just-returned-from-the-dead Thor so by then there was no longer any reason to mourn Thor either.

I guess it all depends on how widespread the "forget Thor ever existed" spell reached. Assuming, of course, that it reached beyond Asgardia itself in the first place.

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Frans » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:27 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:Jeph wrote:
Related question: did any comics set after Fear Itself show characters mourning Thor, or mentioning that he was dead? If so -- we'd need to place this Wolverine arc after those issues, as well. (And hope that they all occur pre-Schism.)
I'm not aware of any non-Thor comics in which characters refer to his being dead.
Avengers #18 and #19 refer to Thor being dead. When Captain America needs new Avengers, he addresses the current Avengers in Avengers #18 "...We've lost some dear friends... and Avengers #19 he talks to Iron Man about their team as the santioned authority: ...And now we..we don't have Thor, we don't have Bucky..pause".
Leading directly into 20 through 24, which is rather a continuous story with Osborn. Next issue 25 is AvX.

What also happens in #19 the return of Vision and Storm meeting Wolverine... (not much words or spoken between them ..Hey Roro..Logan..You here now?..I suppose..).

If we take the route of Wolverine 10-16 after Fear Itself, there is not much room for Schism. The whole Osborn saga in Avengers/New Avengers should happen before Schism then?

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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:17 pm

For what it's worth, Avengers #17, Wolverine #16 and X-Men: Schism #4 were all published in the same month.
Frans wrote:If we take the route of Wolverine 10-16 after Fear Itself, there is not much room for Schism.
By "not much room for Schism" do you mean there's "only one spot to put Schism in the Avengers (between 24-25)?"
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Re: Wolverine v4 #10-16 vs. Fear Itself

Post by Frans » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:56 pm

Yeah I think so for now. But more between 24 and 24.1 (in which Vision visits Utopia; considering the present X-men it looks like after Schism). Right now I'm flipping through New Avengers, Osborn again; and from what I remembered it fits all between issues of Avengers.

I'm not sure, but putting the Wolverine issues after FI, seems to be a little cluttered alltogether. All Avengers issues (New and adjectiveless) between Fear Itself and AvX being put before Schism. And Mighty Thor issues also.

We also have to consider all other series to see if it all fits. Especially X-related.

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