ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:16 pm

The Handbooks established that the mysterious character was Phaeder, an Inhuman.
Yay! Which Handbook revealed that?
I'm not sure, sorry. Probably the 12-issue "A-Z" series just prior to the hardcovers. Check various versions of the High Evolutionary's profile until you find it? :(
Storm was captured and de-aged in UXM #248. Not "#246-248."
Are you suggesting we place the Annuals between UX 247-248? That won't work because Rogue goes through the Siege Perilous in UX 247 and doesn't reappear until UX 269; Rogue appears in Atlantis Attacks.
No, I wasn't suggesting that. I was just nitpicking that your specific Storm reference was wrong. ;) If the story occurs before Storm was de-aged AND Rogue is present, then yes, it's before #246.


Hey, here's a wacky idea to resolve NM Annual #5: time travel. The kids travel back from Asgard, but somehow during the journey they wind up IN THE PAST. Specifically, at the time of Atlantis Attacks. They have their little adventure, then after the issue they figure out what's wrong and get back to the present day off-panel. (Maybe the portal's still open and they fly back through. Or some other silly handwaving explanation.)

This lets the Annual occur before Acts of Vengeance, but still lets the kids drop all kinds of references to NM #86-87. And it's not unprecedented that inter-dimensional travel sometimes puts people out of sync with their intended time/space destination.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:26 pm

Events as Louise Simonson intended:

Inferno

Maddie's funeral/New Mutants find Namor's Horn

X-Factor in England/New Mutants return Illyana to Russia, return to Ship & fight with possessed Mirage

X-Factor launched into space/New Mutants sent to Asgard/Rusty & Skids arrested

"Judgement War"/Asgard story/Rusty & Skids watched over by Freedom Force until Skids collapses and they can stick them in prison

New Mutants return to Earth Atlantis Attacks/X-Factor returns to Earth Atlantis Attacks conclusion

Acts of Vengeance: Rusty & Skids escape prison to fight Vulture, Tinkerer, Nitro & Freedom Force right after Destiny & Stonewall killed/Apocalypse & Caliban fight Loki [X-Factor & New Mutants doing something with Ship BTS during this]

Stories all converge with introduction of Cable/Sabretooth hunting Archangel.

This was messed up by being forced to add the secondary, unrelated Acts of Vengeance stories to the ongoing story arcs
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:07 pm

I just re-read NM Annual #5. It's actually REALLY easy to ignore the references it drops -- they're not all that specific.

1) the New Mutants are hovering around trying to find Ship. Since Ship was mobile during this time, it isn't a huge deal that it's not where it usually hangs out. Maybe it was off somewhere else briefly.

2) the New Mutants say that it's "good to be back on Earth", and worry that X-Factor might be "still in space". Obviously we know what these are supposed to reference, but they're really non-specific. The NMs DON'T say "it's great to have just returned to Earth from Asgard" and "maybe X-Factor is still in space after Ship unexpectedly launched recently."

Frankly, they could easily be referring to off-panel adventures. The NMs could have just returned from a very brief off-panel trip outside Earth's orbit -- they're glad to be "back on Earth". X-Factor could have had a brief off-panel off-Earth adventure as well -- maybe Ship IS "still in space" from this off-panel story.

3) the New Mutants want to tell X-Factor about "Dani and Asgard" and about "Rusty and Skids". Dani, Rusty and Skids are notably missing. Again, these references aren't SPECIFIC -- they DON'T say "we need to tell X-Factor about how Dani stayed behind on Asgard, and how Rusty and Skids were arrested by Freedom Force." So maybe they're referencing an off-panel adventure as well?

Maybe Dani, Rusty and Skids had just left to go do something Asgard-related. Maybe the New Mutants are just coming back from dropping them off -- which is why they were off Earth until just then. (I'm going with "Dani, Rusty and Skids are fighting trolls on the moon.") ;-)

4) Boom-Boom sees the approaching tidal wave and wonders if "Freedom Force is attacking again". Maybe she's drunk.


That's it. Those are all the references we get in the Annual. Nothing that's 100% specific to a previous storyline, no footnotes, no "this issue occurs between X and Y".

Obviously we know what all of these references are SUPPOSED to be referring to. We know exactly what Louise Simonson meant. But, frankly, they're pretty vague and I think that -- if we NEED to handwave them away -- we can.

Where's X-Factor? They briefly left Earth for some reason; the New Mutants are confused because they should have been back by now. (Wherever they went, I guess it took longer than they thought.)

Where are Dani, Rusty and Skids? Off having an adventure somewhere that relates vaguely to Asgard. One which the NMs want to tell X-Factor about.

Why is Cannonball happy to be back on Earth, and why is Boom-Boom talking about Freedom Force attacking again? Maybe they just dropped Dani, Rusty and Skids off on the moon. Maybe they just fought Freedom Force in Earth orbit. Maybe they're drunk.


Do we know where Louise Simonson INTENDED this story to occur? Yes we do.

Can it actually occur there? No, not easily.

So -- if it can't easily occur where it's meant to -- can we ignore, bend or overlook the references that place it there? Yes. Pretty easily.

So let's do that. It sucks for this Annual, but we've done worse things in the past in the name of the bigger picture.

(See also: Dark X-Men: the Confession.)

-Jeph!

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:57 pm

X-Factor Annual 4 was published October of 1989. That is the same month as X-Factor #45 which is the third issue of the Judgement War storyline. While Beast is thinking about how he saw Jean being caught by a tractor beam, there is a Footnote on page 3, 2nd panel that says "*See an upcoming issue of X-Factor. --Bob". That means Louise Simonson fully intended to deal with Beast & Marvel Girl's involvement in Atlantis Attacks after Judgement War but I'm sure it's because Acts of Vengeance messed things up that she never did write that scene in the "upcoming issue". So it's not JUST NM@ 5 that was a problem.
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:58 pm

metaldragon wrote:The way I've separated the stories makes sense.
I see where you're coming from and understand your proposal. The two plots of New Mutants run largely seperate from each other and only interact at the start and end. BUT,
metaldragon wrote:The original authors' intent for both X-Factor and the New Mutants were to have epic storylines where the main team went out in space/Asgard
Her intent was to have the three plots run simultaneously. That's obvious from reading the comics. While half the New Mutants team was doing this, the other half was doing that, while X-Factor was in space, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Your proposal tears that apart and throws it right out the window.
metaldragon wrote:As much as you might hate my breakdown
Hey now. I don't hate it, I just think we have other options.
metaldragon wrote:I'm sure if you were to ask Louise Simonson what happened there, she'd probably tell you that she had the two long storylines plotted out and ready to go and then Marvel told her that X-Factor and The New Mutants had to participate in Atlantis Attacks and Acts of Vengeance. I'm sure she thought she'd be able to have her characters appear there after her story arcs were done. Marvel probably told her she had to write something in those issues that were being published during Acts of Vengeance that tied into the crossover.
That's a lot of assumptions.

What we do know is that Louise was a Marvel editor before she was a writer. She was the editor on Uncanny X-Men 137-182, remember. She knows how this stuff works and how schedules can change. She also knows that mistakes happen sometimes.
metaldragon wrote:How do you explain that one of two sets of events happens after the other in this situation?
The explanation I'm leaning toward right now is that one issue (NM@ 5) got it's references wrong. Everything else falls nicely into place when you take that one thing out.
metaldragon wrote:This was messed up by being forced to add the secondary, unrelated Acts of Vengeance stories to the ongoing story arcs
We don't know that they were forced, and they aren't unrelated; they're what the half of the New Mutants on Earth are doing while the other half is in Asgard.
metaldragon wrote:While Beast is thinking about how he saw Jean being caught by a tractor beam, there is a Footnote on page 3, 2nd panel that says "*See an upcoming issue of X-Factor. --Bob". That means Louise Simonson fully intended to deal with Beast & Marvel Girl's involvement in Atlantis Attacks after Judgement War but I'm sure it's because Acts of Vengeance messed things up that she never did write that scene in the "upcoming issue".
Bob and Louise aren't the same person. And John Byrne wrote XF@ 4. John and Louise aren't the same person either. Walt Simonson inked XF@ 4, and even thoiugh they're married, Walt and Louise aren't the same person either. Just because John or Bob put a note into XF@ 4 doesn't have any bearing on what Louise intended.

Maybe the reason they never put a "tractor beam" scene into X-Factor after Judgement War is because they realized it was a mistake and just dropped it? But that's another assumption; we don't know that either.
metaldragon wrote:So it's not JUST NM@ 5 that was a problem.
It pretty much is. Take a look at my first post in this topic.
JephYork wrote:I just re-read NM Annual #5. It's actually REALLY easy to ignore the references it drops -- they're not all that specific.
JephYork wrote:Do we know where Louise Simonson INTENDED this story to occur? Yes we do.

Can it actually occur there? No, not easily.

So -- if it can't easily occur where it's meant to -- can we ignore, bend or overlook the references that place it there? Yes. Pretty easily.

So let's do that. It sucks for this Annual, but we've done worse things in the past in the name of the bigger picture.
:thumbsup:

What do others think?
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Michael » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:13 pm

Another problem is New Mutants 88- Rahne says that after returning from Asgard, they fought some Atlanteans underwater. I guess we'll just have to ignore that reference as well.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:18 pm

If you're going to do this, then it has to go before their appearance in XF 41. It still really bothers me and if this is ever written up in an Index or some such, I'd like the alternative placements offered as well. Louise Simonson wrote both The New Mutants and X-Factor during this period. She wrote NM@ 5 to belong in the final pages of NM 87. The New Mutants meet up with X-Factor after they arrive back on Earth in NM 88. A footnote in XF@ 4 tells us that Beast sees Marvel Girl being kidnapped in an "upcoming issue of X-Factor" which meant they intended to deal with it after the current story in X-Factor was finished.
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:21 pm

Michael wrote:Another problem is New Mutants 88- Rahne says that after returning from Asgard, they fought some Atlanteans underwater. I guess we'll just have to ignore that reference as well.
Yes, I'd mentioned that on the previous page of this thread. :thumbsup:
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:44 pm

Metaldragon, we're all aware of what Louise Simonson intended. You don't need to keep pointing it out.

You keep describing her intended sequence of events, as if you think that if only we'd NOTICE the sequence she was laying out, we'd change our plan and try to accommodate her intentions.

We know what Louise intended. Fury is deliberately and knowingly suggesting that we give Louise's version of events the shaft. So reminding us of what her intent was ... doesn't matter.

Think of it this way: every other creator who worked on the books at the time **intended** for Atlantis Attacks to take place before Acts of Vengeance. We should try our best to honor THOSE creators' intents, right?

As Fury has noted, NM Annual #5 is the weak link in the chain. As I've noted, although it DOES have references to other stories, none of them are 100% ironclad. They are vague, and there's wiggle room there.

Fury's suggesting, and I'm agreeing, that we deliberately and willingly and knowingly twist and break those references -- force them to mean something other than the creator intended -- in order to acheive a peaceful "greater whole", and to allow us to preserve the references and intentions laid out by every other creator at the time.


We've done this before. Sometimes things don't line up, and one of two versions of events needs to be mangled or willfilly misinterpreted for the greater good. Dark X-Men: the Confession references the events of X-Force v3 #12-13 -- but it simply cannot occur after those issues. So we just pretend that Cyclops and Emma didn't make those references. We squint, shrug, swallow our discomfort and move on building the greater whole.

Marvel's even done it. Fury brought up John Byrne's infamous Tigra retcon: although Tigra was seen on-panel in a certain issue, Byrne wrote an in-comic sequence in a later issue where he asked us all to pretend that she wasn't really there. So we do. We squint, shrug, pretend she isn't there and move on.

The fact that we've been arguing about the sequence of these issues for years is telling of the fact that it's simply an unsolvable problem. It's a Gordian knot. Fury is suggesting that we slice the knot in half and move on.
Another problem is New Mutants 88- Rahne says that after returning from Asgard, they fought some Atlanteans underwater. I guess we'll just have to ignore that reference as well.
Yup! Let's do that too.

(Alternately: just pretend that Rahne isn't detailing the events in order. She's just talking about stuff that the New Mutants have done since they last had a chance to sit and unwind with X-Factor. "We were in Asgard, but we got home...oh and hey we also fought some Atlanteans...!")
If you're going to do this, then it has to go before their appearance in XF 41.
Why? As far as I'm aware, it only has to go before #43, where they actually leave Earth.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:35 pm

Why? As far as I'm aware, it only has to go before #43, where they actually leave Earth.
Because in XF 41 the New Mutants see X-Factor leave for England and Mirage is suffering from a headache & fever. They tell X-Factor they will leave for Russia to drop off Illyana. In NM 77 they go and while in Russia, Mirage and Brightwind collapse unconscious. Rictor mentions X-Factor is in England with a footnote (XF 41-42). Warlock quickly flies them back to Ship who informs them X-Factor is not back yet. Ship diagnoses the coma and fever as magic induced and suggest they go to Dr. Strange's house. While there, Mirage and Brightwind suddenly awake and burst into flame and start throwing fire around. The New Mutants try to stop them while Dr. Strange, in astral form, helps Mirage use her powers to stop her rampage by creating a giant ice machine to freeze herself and Brightwind. In NM 78 Freedom Force then show up to arrest Rusty for the fires caused by Mirage & Brightwind and won't listen to the truth. They try to get the giant ice machine with Mirage & Brightwind back to Ship while fighting off Freedom Force. In order to reach Ship they are forced to leave Rusty & Skids behind. Avalanche creates a wave that destroys the ice machine, releasing Mirage. Right before they can reach Ship it cries out to X-Factor that it is being thrust into space. This same scene takes place at the beginning of XF 43. Dr. Strange then transports the New Mutants, without Rusty & Skids, to Asgard.

Please tell me where any extra stories can fit in there?
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:07 am

JephYork wrote:
Michael wrote:Another problem is New Mutants 88- Rahne says that after returning from Asgard, they fought some Atlanteans underwater. I guess we'll just have to ignore that reference as well.
(Alternately: just pretend that Rahne isn't detailing the events in order. She's just talking about stuff that the New Mutants have done since they last had a chance to sit and unwind with X-Factor. "We were in Asgard, but we got home...oh and hey we also fought some Atlanteans...!")
Right; she would be telling the events out of order.
metaldragon wrote:in XF 41 the New Mutants see X-Factor leave for England and Mirage is suffering from a headache & fever. They tell X-Factor they will leave for Russia to drop off Illyana. In NM 77 they go and while in Russia, Mirage and Brightwind collapse unconscious.
I'm thinking out loud here, but what about after XF 41 and before NM 77?

Maybe the "reason" the New Mutants want to tell X-Factor about Dani and Asgard in NM@ 5 is because her headaches and fever are getting worse (starting in XF 41 and getting worse in NM@ 5), they're assuming it has something to do with Asgard, and they don't know what to do which is why they want to tell X-Factor? They want to tell X-Factor about Dani's sickness in NM 77, but they can't because X-Factor's still in England. Dani doesn't appear in NM@ 5, so I'm not sure if this really matters or not. Rusty and Skids don't appear in NM@ 5 either, maybe they're watching over Dani?

Yes, this would be twisting references intended for something else, but at least the references would point to SOMETHING. No, it's not perfect, but no placement is.

I mean, it's not like X-Factor gave the New Mutants a ride to Russia in XF 41; Warlock flew them there in NM 77. The kids watch X-Factor leave for England in XF 41, so we KNOW X-Factor didn't give the kids a ride.

This would mean Atlantis Attacks happens at roughly the same time as the Cyclops story in M/CP 17-24.

Also, I just flipped through XF@ 4 again and we don't know where Jean and Beast were pulled from. They could have been pulled from England while Cyclops was appearing in M/CP 17-24. Cyclops doesn't appear in XF@ 4 or the rest of Atlantis Attacks.

However…
metaldragon wrote:Rictor mentions X-Factor is in England with a footnote (XF 41-42). Warlock quickly flies them back to Ship who informs them X-Factor is not back yet.
Ship's still parked where it normally is in NM 77. Assuming Ship is parked in the same place in XF 41 and NM 77, why couldn't the kids find it if NM@ 5 takes place between XF 41 and NM 77? I don't know, maybe they're drunk.

But then, why would the kids think X-Factor's in space? Jeph suggested it's an off-panel adventure; that wouldn't work if X-Factor's still in England. I suppose the "kids want to tell X-Factor that Dani's sick" theory would still work before XF 41, and then they tell them in XF 41 after Atlantis Attacks. It's just that X-Factor's not concerned by it because they leave for England anyway. And X-Factor KNOWS Dani's sick in XF 41.

So, before or after XF 41? Thoughts?
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by loki » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:21 am

JephYork wrote:
The Handbooks established that the mysterious character was Phaeder, an Inhuman.
Yay! Which Handbook revealed that?
I'm not sure, sorry. Probably the 12-issue "A-Z" series just prior to the hardcovers. Check various versions of the High Evolutionary's profile until you find it? :(
FF Encyclopedia.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:05 am

Thanks! :D
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:38 am

Okay, based on the references linking XF #41 to NM #77, it sounds like there's a cleaner break point just before XF #41 than there is after it.

I'd rather not settle on one specific fake-sequence-of-events for what happened here -- I don't want our whole logic to hang on "well, X-Factor MUST have gone into space RIGHT THERE for this to work -- the NMs MUST want to tell X-Factor that Dani's sick -- etc." I'd rather find the easiest slot to fit the story in that can accommodate the widest range of possible made-up in-story solutions.

Sounds like just before XF #41 works. The New Mutants can go somewhere that makes them be glad to be back. Dani, Rusty and Skids can have some kind of off-panel event going on that precludes them from being there. X-Factor and Ship can be somewhere else.

And then, every time we hear a reference that doesn't work, we can just pretend they're muttering.

"Hey, it's great to be back mm mpphlbp!" "Yes, but I wonder if X-Factor are still out in mbmph?"

Or drunk. ;)

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:02 am

I wrote:Okay, based on the references linking XF #41 to NM #77, it sounds like there's a cleaner break point just before XF #41 than there is after it.
ON THE OTHER HAND...

If the Annual takes place between X-Factor #41 and New Mutants #77, it solves the problem of "why is X-Factor missing." In the Annual, the NMs are aware that X-Factor recently went *somewhere* (they say "into space" but we're squinting past that). They're not surprised to find X-Factor gone -- they're surprised because they expected X-Factor to be back already.

So placing it after a spot where the New Mutants watched X-Factor depart for a faraway place ... well, that might work.

(And in NM #77 we get confirmation that X-Factor is STILL not back from where they went!)

We still have to figure out where Ship went. But the NMs say, right on-panel in the Annual, that "Ship ranges over a wide area." Maybe they just didn't finish searching for it before they got involved in the Atlantean adventure. Either way, if we place the Annual after XF #41, we DON'T have to add a fake-assumption that X-Factor had an off-panel space adventure just before #41. That simplifies the whole deal for me, and I like that.

This also solves the minor bump in NM #88, where Rahne excitedly tells X-Factor about their Atlantean adventure. Placing the Annual after XF #41 means that NM #88 is the first time the two teams see each other after the Annual -- and now it makes more sense that Rahne info-dumps the Annual's events. (Whereas placing the Annual *before* XF #41 raises the question "why didn't Rahne mention the Atlantean battle when she saw X-Factor in XF #41?)

So -- placing the Annual between XF #41, where the NMs say they're about to take Illyana home -- and NM #77, where they do take Illyana home -- it's a little awkward, but not impossible. It also gives us another option for a fake-theory about where Dani, Rusty and Skids are. They're watching Illyana, or preparing to take her home, or something.

And yes, it would mean that Dani's sick during the events of the Annual. But she's not there. So who cares?

Plus, placing the Annual after XF #41 nudges it juuuuust a little further forward -- and thus that much closer to its actual publication date and intended slot...

I don't know. I'm torn. I think I like after XF #41 better now ... Fury, what do you think?

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