ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:59 pm

JephYork wrote:
I wrote:Okay, based on the references linking XF #41 to NM #77, it sounds like there's a cleaner break point just before XF #41 than there is after it.
ON THE OTHER HAND...

If the Annual takes place between X-Factor #41 and New Mutants #77, it solves the problem of "why is X-Factor missing." In the Annual, the NMs are aware that X-Factor recently went *somewhere* (they say "into space" but we're squinting past that). They're not surprised to find X-Factor gone -- they're surprised because they expected X-Factor to be back already.

So placing it after a spot where the New Mutants watched X-Factor depart for a faraway place ... well, that might work.

(And in NM #77 we get confirmation that X-Factor is STILL not back from where they went!)

We still have to figure out where Ship went. But the NMs say, right on-panel in the Annual, that "Ship ranges over a wide area." Maybe they just didn't finish searching for it before they got involved in the Atlantean adventure. Either way, if we place the Annual after XF #41, we DON'T have to add a fake-assumption that X-Factor had an off-panel space adventure just before #41. That simplifies the whole deal for me, and I like that.

This also solves the minor bump in NM #88, where Rahne excitedly tells X-Factor about their Atlantean adventure. Placing the Annual after XF #41 means that NM #88 is the first time the two teams see each other after the Annual -- and now it makes more sense that Rahne info-dumps the Annual's events. (Whereas placing the Annual *before* XF #41 raises the question "why didn't Rahne mention the Atlantean battle when she saw X-Factor in XF #41?)

So -- placing the Annual between XF #41, where the NMs say they're about to take Illyana home -- and NM #77, where they do take Illyana home -- it's a little awkward, but not impossible. It also gives us another option for a fake-theory about where Dani, Rusty and Skids are. They're watching Illyana, or preparing to take her home, or something.

And yes, it would mean that Dani's sick during the events of the Annual. But she's not there. So who cares?

Plus, placing the Annual after XF #41 nudges it juuuuust a little further forward -- and thus that much closer to its actual publication date and intended slot...

I don't know. I'm torn. I think I like after XF #41 better now ... Fury, what do you think?

-Jeph!
Except SHIP did NOT go to England. It sent X-Factor to England in one of it's little planes in XF 41 and stayed hovering in it's usual spot off Manhattan Island. In the Annual, the New Mutants can't find Ship. That makes no sense whatsoever. When they drop off Illyana and return to New York, Ship is still there. It mentions X-Factor isn't back yet and sends them to get help with Dani from Dr. Strange. So unless the New Mutants minus Rusty, Skids & Dani went off to have some fun over the ocean and Ship flew off somewhere on it's own or with the 3 missing teammates, it makes no sense to have the annual between XF 41 & NM 77.
"May the Light shine forever!"

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:07 pm

The other side of things is X-Factor. Already a fairly large gap has been placed between NM 76 & XF 41 to accommodate some Marvel Comics Presents stories with Beast, his appearance in A 305 and the Archangel flashback story from XF 47. A lot of other unchronicled events could have happened there too.
"May the Light shine forever!"

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:12 pm

Except SHIP did NOT go to England. It sent X-Factor to England in one of it's little planes in XF 41 and stayed hovering in it's usual spot off Manhattan Island.
Did I say that Ship went to England? Re-read my post please. Especially the bit where I say "We still have to figure out where Ship went."
In the Annual, the New Mutants can't find Ship. That makes no sense whatsoever.
I addressed that in my post as well:

"the NMs say, right on-panel in the Annual, that "Ship ranges over a wide area." Maybe they just didn't finish searching for it before they got involved in the Atlantean adventure."

THIS MAKES LITERALLY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!
When they drop off Illyana and return to New York, Ship is still there.
Or, Ship is BACK there. After all, it's been established on-panel that Ship "ranges" around the area.
unless the New Mutants minus Rusty, Skids & Dani went off to have some fun over the ocean and Ship flew off somewhere on it's own
That's exactly what I'm suggesting, yes.

-Jeph!

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:33 pm

It's still awkward. Why manufacture further disruptions to the story arc from XF 41->NM 77~XF 42->[M/CP 17-24]->NM 78/XF 43 just "because" when there is already a gap between NM 76 & XF 41?
"May the Light shine forever!"

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:55 pm

I already explained why. Because it matches the "X-Factor is off somewhere and the New Mutants are concerned that they're not back yet" plot point that's in the Annual.

It's going to be awkward whether we place it before XF #41 or after it. My feeling is that placing it after XF #41 involves making up **less** stuff than placing it beforehand.

I'm really getting the feeling that you're just skimming my posts. I had already addressed every point you've raised today. I'm not suggesting placing it there "just because", as you claim.

(Also: a sequence of events is not the same thing as a "story arc." You've listed a sequence of events above.)

-Jeph!

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:23 pm

Why would the New Mutants be concerned that X-Factor is not back from England yet in the Annual when they aren't acting worried about it in NM 77? They simply accept it as a fact that X-Factor is in England in NM 77. And they happen to find Ship very easily when they return in NM 77 from Russia with no feeling of "Where were you?!"

Either placement, you have to make expletive up to explain what the heck they're doing in the Annual looking for Ship. You simply have to do less explanation/re-interpretation of their words & actions in NM 77 if you place it before XF 41.
"May the Light shine forever!"

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:34 pm

JephYork wrote:I already explained why. Because it matches the "X-Factor is off somewhere and the New Mutants are concerned that they're not back yet" plot point that's in the Annual.

It's going to be awkward whether we place it before XF #41 or after it. My feeling is that placing it after XF #41 involves making up **less** stuff than placing it beforehand.

I'm really getting the feeling that you're just skimming my posts. I had already addressed every point you've raised today. I'm not suggesting placing it there "just because", as you claim.

(Also: a sequence of events is not the same thing as a "story arc." You've listed a sequence of events above.)

-Jeph!
I'm questioning your logic and offering alternatives, not skimming. I'm sorry you don't like the way I write. I'm just trying to figure out why you'd come to those conclusions. I also have offered alternative placements that you did not address in previous posts and simply stated your theories. Did you read mine or just skimmed them?

Anyway, the New Mutants state that they are returning Illyana to her family in XF 41. In NM 77 they go do that. To me that trumps them being irresponsible and having a drunk party on the ocean or whatever the theory is by placing the Annual between XF 41 & NM 77 and then not being surprised to find Ship where it's supposed to be in NM 77 makes no sense.
"May the Light shine forever!"

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:52 pm

Why would the New Mutants be concerned that X-Factor is not back from England yet in the Annual when they aren't acting worried about it in NM 77? They simply accept it as a fact that X-Factor is in England in NM 77. And they happen to find Ship very easily when they return in NM 77 from Russia with no feeling of "Where were you?!"

Either placement, you have to make expletive up to explain what the heck they're doing in the Annual looking for Ship. You simply have to do less explanation/re-interpretation of their words & actions in NM 77 if you place it before XF 41.
Well, the real answer is that we're hammering issues into spots they don't belong with a sledgehammer. We all know that. But for an in-story explanation? Maybe they just plain calmed down by the time of NM #77. They're teenagers -- they get frantic about stupid things from time to time, then they calm down again.

Annual #5: "Why isn't X-Factor back? I thought they'd have been back by now! And where's Ship?! Oh jeez now I'm worried!"
NM #77: "Oh hey there's Ship. Okay I'm not worried anymore. Hi Ship, off "ranging around" again I guess, huh? X-Factor still in England you say? Cool."

Ever parked your car in a big lot, then forgotten where it was? How did you act? Did you get briefly panicked that it might have been stolen? Did that panic immediately dissipate when you spotted your car? What if you were a bunch of teenagers?

"Where's Ship? We left him RIGHT HERE GUYS ugh I don't see him anywhere! Where could he be? What if he left?! What will we do?!? What could have happened?!?! Oh hey there's Ship."

I KNOW that we have to make stuff up in either case. I've said that a few times now. We need to make up the exact same stuff no matter which side of X-Factor #41 you place it, to answer the exact same questions. Except for ONE THING:

In the Annual, the New Mutants know that X-Factor are off somewhere, and are surprised that X-Factor aren't back yet.

That statement DOES NOT match with the status quo just prior to XF #41.

That statement DOES match with the status quo immediately following XF #41.

That's it. That means we have to invent ONE LESS silly bullcrap excuse to explain away the NMs' misplaced references. That's the only advantage to placing it there.

I made simultaneous posts arguing for BOTH placements. I'm clearly waffling on the issue. But I don't get your extreme rejection of the second solution. We're not interrupting a story arc or a cliffhanger or anything. There are already other stories between XF #42-43. What's one more?

Of course, setting the nitpicky little bitty details aside for a second ... the knock-on effect of this decision is that we'd end up placing the REST of Atlantis Attacks either before XF #41, or between XF #42 and #43. (Either way it would be before NM #77, since NM #77 leads directly into #78, which crosses over with XF #43.)

Any problems with that either way?

-Jeph!

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:56 pm

metaldragon wrote:The other side of things is X-Factor. Already a fairly large gap has been placed between NM 76 & XF 41 to accommodate some Marvel Comics Presents stories with Beast, his appearance in A 305 and the Archangel flashback story from XF 47. A lot of other unchronicled events could have happened there too.
I'm simply going to repost this in answer to your question.
"May the Light shine forever!"

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:01 pm

JephYork wrote:I made simultaneous posts arguing for BOTH placements. I'm clearly waffling on the issue. But I don't get your extreme rejection of the second solution. We're not interrupting a story arc or a cliffhanger or anything. There are already other stories between XF #42-43. What's one more?
The ONLY other story placed between XF 42 & 43 is the one where Cyclops visits Banshee & Moira @ Muir Island. Since X-Factor was already in England in XF 41-42, it made sense to simply have him nip up to Scotland while the rest of the team stayed in England with the baby instead of having him take a specific, separate trip out there from New York.
"May the Light shine forever!"

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:07 pm

I'm questioning your logic and offering alternatives, not skimming.
Except -- you keep pointing out problems AFTER I've suggested fixes for them.

Me: "We can assume that X-Factor is in England, but we'd still need to invent a rationale for Ship being missing."
You: "But Ship DIDN'T GO TO ENGLAND."
Me: "...I know that."

Me: "The Annual states that Ship ranges over a wide area; maybe we can just assume that it was ranging around and the NMs got panicky before they finished looking for it."
You: "The New Mutants not being able to find Ship makes no sense whatsoever!!!"
Me: "..."

Me: "I guess we'll have to assume that Dani, Rusty and Skids are off somewhere else."
You: "Unless we assume that the team, minus Dani, Rusty and Skids, went off by themselves, this makes no sense!!!"
Me: "ugh seriously metaldragon"

You also accused me of advocating a placement "just because", even though I'd pretty clearly laid out a specific reasoning for that placement.

Do you see why I might get the impression that you're not reading my words?

I also have offered alternative placements that you did not address in previous posts
Yes, because I'm not out to debunk your ideas. I'm just out to push mine. I'm waiting for someone to push back with EVIDENCE, instead of repeating problems that I JUST suggested fixes for, and parroting the phrase "this makes no sense" over and over.
the New Mutants state that they are returning Illyana to her family in XF 41. In NM 77 they go do that.
Yes, because literally no events can occur in between deciding to do a thing, then doing the thing.

The other day I decided to go to the grocery store. I ended up doing dishes and watering the lawn before going. This makes no sense!!
To me that trumps them being irresponsible and having a drunk party on the ocean or whatever the theory is
You know that's not the theory. Or, well, if you haven't been skimming you'd know. "Maybe they're drunk" is a running joke -- Fury's using it to mean "Okay, there's no good explanation for that; let's just be silly and pretend the kids are drunk. Damned teenagers with their beer! Get off my lawn! I just watered it!"
then not being surprised to find Ship where it's supposed to be in NM 77 makes no sense.
...see?

I've already addressed the "not being surprised to find Ship in NM #77" issue in my previous post. They got panicky in the Annual and started yelling about "OH NO WHAT IF SHIP IS GONE FOREVER GUYS" -- then they spotted Ship off in the distance between the Annual and NM #77 -- then they felt stupid and immediately calmed down. Like you do when you finally spot your car in the parking lot.

I know, I know. That makes no sense whatsoever.

-Jeph!

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:11 pm

Metaldragon, could you stop making multiple short posts in a row? It's really hard to reply to you when, by the time I'm done typing, you've generated three more posts. Could you try to stick all your thoughts in one big post, please?
I'm simply going to repost this in answer to your question.
That doesn't even come close to answering my question. My question was "are there any CHRONOLOGICAL PROBLEMS with placing all of Atlantis Attacks either before, or after, XF #41-42?"

Your repost said "look there's a big gap before XF #41." Once again I get the feeling you're not fully reading/understanding me.
The ONLY other story placed between XF 42 & 43 is the one where Cyclops visits Banshee & Moira @ Muir Island. Since X-Factor was already in England in XF 41-42, it made sense to simply have him nip up to Scotland while the rest of the team stayed in England with the baby instead of having him take a specific, separate trip out there from New York.
Is X-Factor still in England when #43 begins? If so, that's a really good argument against placing the rest of Atlantis Attacks there.

If not -- if #43 opens with them back in New York -- then what's stopping them from having other adventures after they returned, but before #43 began?

-Jeph!

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Michael » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:44 pm

They're back on Ship when XF 43 opens.

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:50 pm

I'm just finding it pointless to try and cram NM@ 5 (and by extension XF@ 4 and the rest of the Atlantis Attacks conclusion) in a spot where you have to justify the surrounding dialogue (and an editor's note) to mean something else. There is nothing directly connecting NM 76 to XF 41. There are already stories for Beast & Angel that are in that spot. There IS dialogue connecting XF 41 to NM 77 (plan to take Illyana to parents while X-Factor in England which they are then shown doing) and NM 77 makes specific references to X-Factor being in England, as well as an editor's caption to XF 41-42. Ship confirms X-Factor isn't back yet when they ask when the New Mutants return to it in NM 77. And from the moment the New Mutants return to Ship from Russia, to the moment Ship launches itself into space at the end of NM 78/beginning of XF 43 there is not enough time for X-Factor to have other stories.

I suppose you're now trying to justify the moment when the New Mutants return to Ship and ask if X-Factor is back and Ship's reply to mean something other than their trip to England? :roll:

Fine, whatever. *shrug*
"May the Light shine forever!"

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4612
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:05 pm

I had a whole thing typed out, but instead I decided to do something crazy and CHECK THE BOOKS.

You know what the characters actually say in XF #41? Instead of the paraphrasing that's been slung back and forth in this thread all day long?

X-Factor announces that they need to go to England, and that "it means we'll be gone a while."

The New Mutants say:

"Don't worry, you can trust us! We won't do anything dangerous. We'll take Dani to a doctor. And take Illyana home. And we'll even watch the baby."

They're not announcing that they have suddenly decided to drop everything and immediately take Illyana home. They're reeling off a laundry list of chores that they plan to do during the "long while" that X-Factor will be away!

"Sure, we'll do all that while you're gone. But first, a drunken party. How long did you say you'd be gone?" ;)

(They end up not having to watch the baby, btw. X-Factor takes Nathan with them.)

It's worth noting that both teams spend a LOT of time in XF #41 chatting with each other. And all they discuss are the events of Inferno. Almost as if it's the most recent big adventure that they just went through. Nobody mentions Atlantis Attacks... ;)


As for NM #77: Ship doesn't say that X-Factor is still in England. He just says that "they're not home yet." Rictor says that X-Factor is still in England. But that's in a different scene. And how would Rictor know?

It is entirely and completely plausible that X-Factor returned home from England, then Jean got kidnapped by Ghaur or whoever, and the latter half of Atlantis Attacks happened -- all without Rictor learning that X-Factor had come home and left again.

I do understand that there's a footnote in Rictor's scene, referencing XF #41-42. But footnotes are only a signpost of the creators' or editors' intent -- they're not immutable laws that must be obeyed. And we already know from Rictor's dialogue what the writer's intent is, rendering the footnote useless.

This issue doesn't explicitly say "X-Factor is in England." It says "X-Factor is away, and Rictor thinks they're in England."

(Though, here's something that I should check: does all of X-Factor leave Ship to rescue Jean in the X-Factor Annual? If not ... if, for example, they leave Iceman behind to mind the store ... then this proposed sequence would NOT work, because Iceman would be aboard Ship when the New Mutants arrived in #77.)


I've said it before, but it bears repeating: let's not forget that little snippet of dialogue in NM #88 where Rahne excitedly tells Jean that the New Mutants fought Atlanteans since the last time they saw X-Factor. If we place Atlantis Attacks before XF #41, then that's not true anymore. Rahne would have fought Atlanteans (in NM@5), THEN seen X-Factor (in XF #41, where they talked about Inferno for a long time and nothing else) -- then excitedly talked about their Atlantean battle the NEXT time they saw X-Factor (in NM #88).

It's awkward but it's not unbelievable. But, if we place Atlantis Attacks after XF #41-42 -- then the next time that Rahne sees Jean after the Atlantean battle WOULD be NM #88. And it would make perfect sense for her to excitedly info-dump stories of the battle at that point.

That's less awkward, less unbelievable -- and I like it!

Okay, now to specific replies:
I'm just finding it pointless to try and cram NM@ 5 (and by extension XF@ 4 and the rest of the Atlantis Attacks conclusion) in a spot where you have to justify the surrounding dialogue (and an editor's note) to mean something else.
Metaldragon -- you have to justify "the surrounding dialogue" to mean something else NO MATTER WHERE YOU PUT THE ANNUAL.

If you put the Annual before XF #41, you have to explain why the NMs think they just got back to Earth, why they think X-Factor is in space, why Ship is missing, and why Dani and Rusty and Skids are missing.

If you put the Annual between XF #41 and NM #77, you have to explain why the NMs think they just got back to Earth, why they think X-Factor is in space, why Ship is missing, and why Dani and Rusty and Skids are missing.

"Having to justify the dialogue" IS NOT A FACTOR IN MAKING THIS DECISION.
There is nothing directly connecting NM 76 to XF 41. There are already stories for Beast & Angel that are in that spot.
Yes, I'm aware that there's a gap there, as you know. I actually made a post on the last page of this thread arguing FOR a placement there, because it was "simpler." It sounds like you prefer the simple explanation too. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm just increasingly attracted to the idea of using the specific circumstances of the post-XF #41 gap to explain some of the awkward references in the Annual. (Why do the NMs already think X-Factor is away somewhere? Because X-Factor said "we're off to England for a long while" and left. Why did Rahne infodump their Atlantean adventure in NM #88? Because it occurred after the last time she saw X-Factor.)

There IS dialogue connecting XF 41 to NM 77 (plan to take Illyana to parents while X-Factor in England which they are then shown doing)
Discussed above. They're not stating their immediate intent, and frankly Illyana isn't even the first item on their to-do list.
NM 77 makes specific references to X-Factor being in England, as well as an editor's caption to XF 41-42. Ship confirms X-Factor isn't back yet when they ask when the New Mutants return to it in NM 77.
Discussed above. Rictor thinks they're in England; this is not explicitly confirmed by Ship. Yes, this is a case of re-interpreting the issue's intent, but damn it's pretty easy to do.

(Though if you can find me evidence from other stories that either (a) not all of X-Factor left Ship to go rescue Jean/fight in Atlantis Attacks -- in which case, one of them would have been there in NM #77 ... or (b) the New Mutants encountered X-Factor during Atlantis Attacks -- in which case, Rictor WOULD have known in #77 that they were back from England ... then I'll happily reconsider!)
from the moment the New Mutants return to Ship from Russia, to the moment Ship launches itself into space at the end of NM 78/beginning of XF 43 there is not enough time for X-Factor to have other stories.
Agreed! Which is why I never once suggested placing Atlantis Attacks in that period.
I suppose you're now trying to justify the moment when the New Mutants return to Ship and ask if X-Factor is back and Ship's reply to mean something other than their trip to England?
Yes. Yes I am.


I'm a little disappointed that when I checked the books, I found plot points, clues and references that WEREN'T the way you've been describing them.

You: "XF #41 says that the NMs are about to go take Illyana home!"
XF #41: the NMs promise to do a bunch of things in an open-ended timeframe, one of which is taking Illyana home.

This makes it difficult for me to trust any of your other points -- I'm now wondering what other conclusions you may have drawn from misunderstandings or unwarranted assumptions. :(

I'd still love to hear other folks' takes on this. Before XF #41, in the "simple", larger gap where we have to invent a LOT of off-panel adventures to explain the various references in the Annual? After XF #42, in the smaller, less obvious gap that sort-of-kind-of resembles the Annual's references, meaning we'd have to invent fewer off-panel adventures?

-Jeph!

Locked