X-Factor 259

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Leoparis
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X-Factor 259

Post by Leoparis » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:07 pm

This issue answers the question of Longshot and Shatterstar's relationship.
Mojo, Spiral, Dazzler, Arize also appear. Lots of time travel.
Anyone wants to give a shot as to character placement...?

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by JephYork » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:06 pm

After X-Factor #258; before X-Factor #260.

-Jeph!

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by Leoparis » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:14 am

:lol:

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by Mikhail » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:15 pm

Sure, I'll take a shot.

Rictor and Shatterstar are the modern versions. This is their first chronological appearance after the Hell on Earth War ended.

Longshot, Arize, Quark, and Mojo are non-time travelers at this point. These are their contemporary versions for that time period. I'd place Longshot and Arize between the FBs in Longshot #5-6. In #5 they seem to be meeting (or re-meeting) for the first time, and Longshot is not referred to by name. In #6, he's dressed more like a rebel and called "Longshot", which places it after Ric/Star retroactively name him in #259.

This should be Mojo and Quark's first chronological appearances.

Spiral is Mojo's "new toy", so this is her first appearance as Spiral after arriving from the future in X-Factor Annual #7's flashback.

Baby Shatterstar's first chronological appearance, obviously. Dazzler appears here between X-Men (2nd series) #11 and #47.

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by michel » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:39 am

Maybe I'm wrong, it's always complex with time travel, but haven't we here with Longshot and Shatterstar a chronal loop with no entry ?? You need Shatterstar first to clone Longshot from him, but you need Longhsot first too to be Shatterstar's father ! Isn't it some kind of paradox, and is it even possible, if there's no way to initiate the loop ?

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by Leoparis » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:20 pm

The entry point is the entrance of Shatterstar in the Mojo universe so he gets cloned and then Longshot gets a son (who later travels to the past)

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by DonCampbell » Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:52 am

michel wrote:Maybe I'm wrong, it's always complex with time travel, but haven't we here with Longshot and Shatterstar a chronal loop with no entry ?? You need Shatterstar first to clone Longshot from him, but you need Longhsot first too to be Shatterstar's father ! Isn't it some kind of paradox, and is it even possible, if there's no way to initiate the loop ?
Yes, I believe that it is some kind of paradox but it has happened before in fiction. The Terminator and Star Trek: Voyager and Doctor Who have all had similar problems: all have Event A which causes Event B which causes Event C which somehow causes Event A. It also reminds me of the movie Timerider in which a motorcycle racer is accidentally transported back to the Old West where he ends up impregnating a woman who the audience later realizes will become his own grandmother. And then there's that Futurama episode in which Fry travelled back in time to the Roswell Incident and became his own grandfather.

The Marvel Universe has a similar paradox involving Hela, the Norse goddess of death. Hela has been around for millennia and Loki is rumored to be her father despite the fact that she is undoubtedly older than he is. A few years ago, one of Hela's hand was chopped off by a Disir and Hela transformed that hand into a "handmaiden" whom she named Leah and sent to be her liaison with Loki. Later, in order to defeat Surtur, Loki had to create a duplicate of Leah who ended up with the Fire Giant. Later still, after Hela was healed and converted the first Leah back into her hand, the second Leah reappeared, wanting revenge on Loki but he made amends to her and while doing so sent her thousands of years into the past where she grew up to become Hela. So, who came first, Hela or Leah?

You know, I remember reading a thread about that situation on this very board. I don't think that they ever came up for a good explanation for it, either.
Leoparis wrote:The entry point is the entrance of Shatterstar in the Mojo universe so he gets cloned and then Longshot gets a son (who later travels to the past)
Actually, the problem is that there ISN'T an entry point to the chronal loop. A leads to B leads to C leads to A in an endless loop with no beginning and no end.

Don Campbell

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by Leoparis » Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:26 pm

The entry point is the earliest chronological point in the timeline. Don't look at the loop, look at the timeline. It doesn't matter if the loop is looping. That's what loops do after all.

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by michel » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:02 pm

DonCampbell wrote:The Marvel Universe has a similar paradox involving Hela, the Norse goddess of death. Hela has been around for millennia and Loki is rumored to be her father despite the fact that she is undoubtedly older than he is. A few years ago, one of Hela's hand was chopped off by a Disir and Hela transformed that hand into a "handmaiden" whom she named Leah and sent to be her liaison with Loki. Later, in order to defeat Surtur, Loki had to create a duplicate of Leah who ended up with the Fire Giant. Later still, after Hela was healed and converted the first Leah back into her hand, the second Leah reappeared, wanting revenge on Loki but he made amends to her and while doing so sent her thousands of years into the past where she grew up to become Hela. So, who came first, Hela or Leah?
I think it's not exactly the same case here, it would be if it had been the first Leah that had been sent into the past. But it's the second one, the Leah that had been created when Loki retconned her into the Serpent's history. There's no loop here, the first Leah, originated from Hela, comes back to Hela. And the second one, the young Hela, is just inspirated by her future self due to the time travel.

By the way, I really loved Gillen's run on Journey Into Mystery, and yesterday I was very pleased to see
Spoiler:
Leah appears in the Young Avengers #9 Preview !
Leoparis wrote:The entry point is the earliest chronological point in the timeline. Don't look at the loop, look at the timeline. It doesn't matter if the loop is looping. That's what loops do after all.
I understand that it's possible to write chronologies for the two characters, but it's the situation that should be impossible : a loop with no entry should have stayed a theoretical concept, it shouldn't exist if there's no way to enter the loop.
.

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by Leoparis » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:08 pm

Sorry but a loop by definition doesn't have an entry point. What you call an entry point is just a third element. But whether a loop as two or three elements, it's the same.

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by DonCampbell » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:19 pm

michel wrote:I think it's not exactly the same case here, it would be if it had been the first Leah that had been sent into the past. But it's the second one, the Leah that had been created when Loki retconned her into the Serpent's history. There's no loop here, the first Leah, originated from Hela, comes back to Hela. And the second one, the young Hela, is just inspirated by her future self due to the time travel.
Ah, but you're forgetting something: Leah 2 wouldn't have come into existence it Leah 1 hadn't existed, and Leah 1 wouldn't have existed if Hela had not created her, and Hela (as the grown-up Leah 2) would never have existed if Leah 2 hadn't been sent back in time. The fact that Leah 1 rejoined with Hela doesn't matter because it was the fact that she ever existed as a separate entity which led to the creation of Leah 2.

Edit: Okay, I found the thread in which this was discussed in November of last year. Here's the link: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6719
michel wrote:By the way, I really loved Gillen's run on Journey Into Mystery, and yesterday I was very pleased to see
Spoiler:
Leah appears in the Young Avengers #9 Preview !
I also loved Kieron Gillen's run on JIM and appreciated how much he respected established continuity but was still able to come up with great stories. And
Spoiler:
Leah has actually already appeared in Young Avengers #8!
Don Campbell
Last edited by DonCampbell on Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by michel » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:02 pm

I didn't forget what you point out, but it's hard to make my explanation clear : Hela as Leah 2 is created by Loki, and it happens that Loki's inspiration, Leah 1, came before Leah 2 because Leah 2 was sent in the past. The time travel explains the apparent paradox, and Hela's origin is perfectly established, something that can't be say for Shattestar and Longshot.

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by DonCampbell » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:38 pm

My opinion is this: Leah couldn't have come into existence without Hela and Hela (as Leah 2) couldn't have come into existence without Leah. And this seems to me to be very similar to what Peter David wrote: Shatterstar came into existence because of Longshot and Longshot came into existence because Shatterstar existed and travelled into the past.

You know, maybe it would be a good idea if somebody could get Kieron Gillen and/or Peter David to explain what THEY were thinking when they wrote those origins. Did they intend for the origins to be time loops or not?

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Re: X-Factor 259

Post by JephYork » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:46 am


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