Naming conventions

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Leoparis
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Naming conventions

Post by Leoparis » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:38 am

Re: Vance Astrovik/Vance Astro

On a general note when a character is introduced with a civilian name and goes through several identities, the civilian identity should be the default name. There is a trend to call characters by their superhero name as sonn as they get one but that isn't always practical. The Runaways have codenames but I couldn't tell what they are.

I never think of Vance Astro as Major Victory. He got this moniker after 25 years of existence.

Kitty Pryde is Kitty Pryde. I don't think she's used Shadowcat in 25 years.
Quentin Quire and Idie Okonkwo, I never think of them by their codename, though that's maybe just me.

But where it's more glaring is for people who went through several codenames. When they're not more identified by one over the others, I'd prefer to use the civilian identity.

Hank Pym was introduced as a civilian, not as a superhero. People on message boards call him Pym more than anything else.

Another example is Carol Danvers. A few years ago I'd have gone with Ms Marvel as that was the name under which she got her own feature series but now that isn't her codename anymore and she was plain Carol Danvers for the first eight years of existence in the Marvel Universe.

Bobbi Morse also existed for years before she got her current codename. Since that codename has been stable I don't object to her listing as Mockingbird.

Aracely in Scarlet Spider should stay Aracely for now.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:19 pm

That's one of the things we've been slowly, quietly updating the MCP on as we go through the recent Index series.

USAGENT/JOHN WALKER used to have all of his appearances listed under USAgent, but now his chronologies are split between his various identities (Super-Patriot, Captain America and USAgent).

Because generally speaking, I think we should list a character in a certain issue under the name they're using at the time. Yes, that means Noh-Varr (for example) is listed under a bunch of different names, but WE didn't do that, the comics did. There are exceptions, of course (one-off identites, "disguised as" appearances, temporary code-names not meant to be permanent, etc).

Heather Hudson is close to what you're talking about, as she has all of her "Heather" appearances listed under her real name and then when she puts on the suit she moves over to that identity (which reminds me, I think we should sort out the Mac/Heather/Guardian/Vindicator stuff, because they both used both identities).

Hank Pym has always been split between his various identities (Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, Yellowjacket, Dr. Pym, Wasp), as has Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel, Binary, Warbird, and eventually Captain Marvel when those appearances are eventualy added to the MCP). However, you make a good point about her pre-Ms. Marvel Carol Danvers appearances. She was introduced as Carol, and it was a while before she became Ms. Marvel. This would be comparable to Heather Hudson, I'd think.

Stature's another one that should be split between Cassie Lang and Stature/Cassie Lang; she was Cassie for YEARS and YEARS before she became Stature.

However, I DON'T think we should split off Spider-Man's pre-Spider-Man Peter Parker appearances because he was introduced as Spider-Man. Any pre-Spider-Man appearances he has are all flashbacks or continuity implants. The same would go for Captain America, Punisher and Wolverine, to name a few.

And hey, if anyone can't remember a certain character's costumed identity and only their civilian name, that's one of the reasons why we have a search function.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:01 pm

I agree with using the costumed name if that is how we were introduced to them. I also agree that if we are introduced to them as civilians and then they adopt a costumed identity we should follow the same patterns as the books. Some other glaring ones are "Invisible Girl/Invisible Woman" and "Sprite/Ariel/Shadowcat"

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Chris McCarver » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:21 pm

Adding to that: Marvel Boy/Justice.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:45 am

Also, Angel/Archangel. And I'm sure we'll sort out Major Victory and Aleta whenever we get around to adding Guardians of the Galaxy to the MCP.

Marvel Boy/Justice was introduced as Vance Astrovik first, then adopted the name Marvel Boy, then became Justice. I think his chronology should be split between the three names (also, for one issue of the Thing while he was Thing's wrestling manager, Vance took the wrestling name "Manglin' John Mahoney;" this being a one-off identity I don't think he should have a chronology attached to this, just a note saying "see Vance Astrovik").

Speaking of Marvel Boys, Quasar was both Marvel Boy and Marvel Man before he was Quasar, wasn't he?

What about Dani Moonstar? I know she went by Mirage and Spellbinder, but didn't she also go by just "Moonstar" for a while? (and maybe she still does?)

Oh, and Boom Boom/Boomer/Meltdown.

Any other characters? I'm sure there are a bunch of others.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Somebody » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:52 pm

Col_Fury wrote:What about Dani Moonstar? I know she went by Mirage and Spellbinder, but didn't she also go by just "Moonstar" for a while? (and maybe she still does?)
I forget the issue ranges, but as I recall her original codename was "Psyche", then she was "Spellbinder" as a one-off (X-Men/Micronauts, IIRC), then she settled into "Mirage" for most of the New Mutants run, then... I can't remember what she went by in her MLF days, but when she joined X-Force she settled down to just "Moonstar" as you say, notwithstanding a slight complication in the New Mutants v2/Academy X run (her Handbook profile in the Academy X Yearbook lists her under Mirage, which the writers said online was at their request, since they regarded her as going by that codename... But they never actually had anyone *call* her Mirage, or her introduce herself as such, so I ignore that).

A similar case to the Academy X Moonstar thing is Madrox and Layla in X-Factor - the recap page cast list has called them "Multiple Man" and "Butterfly" for a while, but Jamie's never been called that in this whole 100+ issue run that I recall, and Layla's only been called Butterfly a handful of times - the only one of which came off as a codename was toward the end of the future arc.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by JephYork » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:11 pm

I'm going to weigh in with the opposite opinion. You guys are making this WAY too complicated and the MCP is going to become byzantine and twisty.

Pick one codename for each character. Then for the other codenames, just put "see [main codename]" and a direct link to the main one.

If you're feeling really OCD, put notations WITHIN each chronology that show when their codename changed.

There is absolutely no need for separate "Invisible Girl" and "Invisible Woman" entries. Heather Hudson does not need five separate chronology entries detailing when she bounced back and forth from Heather to Vindicator to Guardian to Vindicator etc etc forever. Kitty Pryde does not need four entries.

We'e trying to keep this thing user-friendly. Not so horribly detailed that only comic uber-nerds know how to navigate it.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Somebody » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:41 pm

I don't disagree, especially when you're going back and forth, less so when there's an change of name that actually sticks. But, going back to Leoparis' original point, there are some ill-chosen listings because they used a codename for a short time, like Aleta being under STARHAWK II. That needs to get fixed.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by JephYork » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:47 pm

Yes.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:22 pm

Oh, wow. I forgot about Psyche. :)
JephYork wrote:Pick one codename for each character. Then for the other codenames, just put "see [main codename]" and a direct link to the main one.
But which code name? Do we REALLY want to list all of Hank Pym's appearances under Yellowjacket (or any one of them, really) because that's the code name we picked? I think that's more confusing than having his chronology split between Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, Yellowjacket, Dr. Pym and Wasp. Whatever code name we pick will be arbitrary. And that's where we get into the ill-chosen names that most people can't find the character they're looking for comes from.
JephYork wrote:We're trying to keep this thing user-friendly.
It IS user-friendly; there're links all over the place. Go look up USAgent and tell me how hard it is to navigate the MCP to find John Walker's complete chronology. Or Thunderstrike. Or Hawkeye. Or Songbird. Or Marvel Girl (either of them).

Like I said earlier, WE didn't rename some of these characters multiple times, the comics did. Part of the fun of following some of these characters' chronologies are following them through their various identities.

Picking one code name is imposing a structure onto the stories that doesn't exist in the comics.

Was Noh-Varr calling himself "Protector" in the Marvel Boy miniseries? No, but any new comic reader will know him by "Protector." However, a lot of us here were first introduced to this character in the Marvel Boy miniseries, so we'd be inclined to list him under "Marvel Boy." But what about the people who first read about Noh-Varr in Dark Avengers? They'd probably say list him under "Captain Marvel." Picking any one of these code names is arbitrary and in a few years we'll have to readjust it, just like we do with Aleta now.

It doesn't hurt anything to be a little more detailed and it avoids these arbitrary descisions from having to happen. And as long as we keep it user-friendly by adding in the links every time an identity change happens, I don't see any problems with it. Besides, we've done this all along with Hank Pym, Carol Danvers and the Thunderbolts, we just haven't been consistent across all the characters (like USAgent until recently).

I haven't had a chance to look into it yet, but if Heather Hudson really did switch that many times between Vindicator and Guardian, then yeah, that would probably be more confusing than it's worth.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Chris McCarver » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:54 pm

I gotta admit I'd like there to be one single chronology listing per character, with links from alternate codenames to the main listing (if for no other selfish reason than it'd make my personal little Marvel statistics projects a bit easier, but I digress... :) ). Maybe whatever the current codename (or lack thereof) is, then have parenthetical notations near the issues where they switch:

PYM, DR. HENRY
[...]
TTA 35 (1st as ANT-MAN)
[...]
TTA 49 (1st as GIANT-MAN)
[...]
A 28 (1st as GOLIATH)
[...]
A 60 (20:5)-FB (1st as YELLOWJACKET)
[...]
[IAGE 1] (1st as DOCTOR PYM)
[...]
A 366 (resumes as GIANT-MAN)
[...]
A3 27 (resumes as GOLIATH)
[...]
A:UI (resumes as YELLOWJACKET)
[...]
SECINV:R (1st as WASP II)
[...]
AVACAD 7 (resumes as GIANT-MAN)
[...]
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Somebody » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:02 am

Col_Fury wrote:Was Noh-Varr calling himself "Protector" in the Marvel Boy miniseries? No, but any new comic reader will know him by "Protector."
Less so, since the current Young Avengers series is listing him as "Marvel Boy" again.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:08 am

Ah, but the "current" code name for the MCP isn't always what the actual current code name for the character is.

For the MCP, the current code name for Hank Pym is Wasp; we haven't added any comics where he's already resumed being Giant-Man yet. And I'm sure at some point, he'll stop being Giant-Man and resume being something else (again).

And every time we would change the code name on the entire character's listing, the character would move to another page. "H" for Hawkeye, "G" for Goliath, "R" for Ronin, etc.

Yeah, sure, it's "cleaner" to have it all in one listing, but again, that's not how it happens in the comics.
Somebody wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:Was Noh-Varr calling himself "Protector" in the Marvel Boy miniseries? No, but any new comic reader will know him by "Protector."
Less so, since the current Young Avengers series is listing him as "Marvel Boy" again.
Oh, really? I haven't read any of the new Young Avengers yet, but I find that hilarious for some reason. :D
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Leoparis » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:34 am

That's why I made the point that for Pym and Danvers, it would be better to list them under Pym and Danvers, and Monica Rambeau and Sharon Ventura are the same. Of course we provide links: Goliath, see Pym, Henry; see Hawkeye (Clint Barton)
Ms. Marvel: see Danvers, Carol; see Ventura, Sharon

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:42 am

Leoparis wrote:That's why I made the point that for Pym and Danvers, it would be better to list them under Pym and Danvers, and Monica Rambeau and Sharon Ventura are the same.
That's not intuitive at all, to take characters who have spent 90% of their published lives under code names and place the chronologies under their real names.

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