Naming conventions

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by JephYork » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:04 pm

No, but it would keep us from having to move them to a different letter page every time their identity changed. (Which we'd have to do if we always used a character's most current codename.)

And with live links like "YELLOWJACKET -> see PYM, HANK" and "GIANT-MAN -> see PYM, HANK" on the various pages where his various codenames appear -- the system wouldn't NEED to be "intuitive." No matter what codename you decide to look under, Pym's COMPLETE chronology would be a mere one click away.

Col_Fury's way, Pym's complete chronology would be split over several pages and would take SEVERAL clicks to fully browse. And it would be impossible to look through all at once.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:39 am

Again, it's not "my" way, it's the MCP's way. Or at least it has been since I've been coming here (which is over eight years now). I just happen to agree with it.

Yes, it's been inconsistent. What I'm saying is let's take something we've been doing (for Hank Pym, Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, both Marvel Girls, all the Thunderbolts, etc. etc.) and make it more consistent (for Dani Moonstar, Cassie Lang, etc.).

Listing characters the way we've been listing Hank Pym's identities reflects what happens in the comics. Lumping all of his identities into one listing doesn't.

And besides, his full chronology is too long to fit on one computer monitor screen anyway. What's the difference between scrolling down and clicking a link?

I'm repeating myself at this point, so let's look at it from another direction.

The Murray Ward X-Men Index (for example) listed characters under whatever code name they were using at the time. Angel when he was Angel, Archangel after he got his metal wings. Kitty Pryde before she got a code name, then Sprite, then Ariel, then Shadowcat. etc. The Index is a guide for the MCP. The Index did it this way, that's probably why the MCP does it this way (yes, for certain characters but not all characters; inconsistency).

Now, if you look up Captain America #327 in the Search here at the MCP, it says that USAgent appears. Well, no, Super-Patriot is in that comic. (of course, we've already split up USAgent's chronology into his three identities, but the Search hasn't been updated to reflect that yet) We update USAgent to reflect his identities, then update the Search. Then (in the future after all of this happens), look up Captain America #327 in the Search, and it says that Super-Patriot appears. OK, cool, that reflects what character appears in the comic.

Does that makes sense?
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:06 am

JephYork wrote:No matter what codename you decide to look under, Pym's COMPLETE chronology would be a mere one click away.
Nope, sorry. Can't get behind that. I don't care how many code names Carol Danvers or Henry Pym have run through, it doesn't make sense. Reed Richards is listed under Mr. Fantastic, but Ms. Marvel is listed under Carol Danvers, but Sharon Ventura is listed under Ms. Marvel II. Peter Parker is listed under Spider-Man, but Ant-Man is listed under Henry Pym, but Scott Lang is listed under Ant-Man II.

You could get the same functionality you're seeking by listing everything under their original code name, but you're going to run into head-scratchers there, too. Quasar and Justice are listed under Marvel Boy's?

Fury's suggestion presents problems, too. What about one-off appearances. Hank Pym appears in A 93 as Ant-Man, amidst a long run of Yellowjacket appearances.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:25 am

A similar thing happened with Kang. After his original stint as Rama-Tut, he later took a temporary "vacation" as Rama-Tut:

KANG THE CONQUEROR

FF@ 27
AVF 9-FB
GSA 2-FB (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
WCA 20 (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
GSA 2-FB (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
A 129 (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
GSA 2 (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
A 131 (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
A 132 (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
GSA 3 (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
T 282-FB (as Pharaoh Rama-Tut)
AVF 9-FB
AVF 1


As I understand it, Kang didn't intend to stay Rama-Tut, it was temporary, so we kept those appearances under Kang (but with notes).

This would be one of those exceptions I mentioned earlier; temporary code names/identities. It's not like we split Spider-Man's chronology for the short time he was Hornet or Dusk. Or Captain Universe.

A quick glance at the recent Avengers & Iron Man Index shows Yellowjacket was Ant-Man for at least a couple of issues. So to mirror how we handled Kang:

YELLOWJACKET/HANK PYM

A 91
A 93 (as Ant-Man)
IM 44/2 (as Ant-Man)
A 99 (as Ant-Man)
A 100 (as Ant-Man)
H2 148-BTS


I haven't dug out Hulk #148-155, Marvel Feature #4-10, Captain Marvel #35-37 or Defenders #23-25 to see if he's Yellowjacket or Ant-Man in those issues, but I think you see where I'm going. Just copy Kang! :D
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Michael » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:17 am

Hank was Ant-Man in Hulk 154, Marvel Feature 4-10 and Captain Marvel 35-37. Basically, he was Ant-Man for a few years, then went back to being Yellowjacket in Defenders.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:27 am

In the Pym example, it's readily apparent to anyone reading the books that it's Hank Pym in an Ant-Man costume. When Hank guest stars in a book due to his scientific prowess, we wouldn't say "IM 245 (as Hank Pym)", would we? Please say no, because then we'd have to do that for everyone.

We annotated Kang's appearances because it wasn't readily apparent that Kang appeared in those books. Since that time, we've instituted the "| cf " notation, and Kang's listing should probably be updated appropriately.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Somebody » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:28 am

Russ Chappell wrote:We annotated Kang's appearances because it wasn't readily apparent that Kang appeared in those books. Since that time, we've instituted the "| cf " notation, and Kang's listing should probably be updated appropriately.
Doesn't that arc have *both* Rama-Tut and Kang? i.e., the issue is not that people wouldn't realise Kang was there, but which iteration that segment of the listing that refers to.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:43 am

Ah, true. But the "not readily apparent" part still applies.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Somebody » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:03 am

It does, but not in a way a |cf (other issue)| would help. You need to directly annotate that these are his appearances as Rama-Tut in some fashion, although I don't think that putting (as Rama-Tut) beside each entry is a particularly elegant solution!

Incidentally Fury, as I recall the Celestial Messiah arc, he was absolutely done with being Kang at that point - he even smashes his time machine, so needs to go into suspended animation when he decides to try and change his history by stopping Kang.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by metaldragon » Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:50 pm

Angel (III) has been Archangel since X-Factor 38 and his entry here still doesn't mention that. Also not mentioned is that he was Death from XF 18-26 and, briefly, Dark Angel in his appearances between XF 27-38.

Also, why is Boom Boom listed as Boomer right from her first appearance up to when she changes it to Meltdown, when she was Boom Boom from XF 11 up until X-Force 19 (when she then changed it to Boomer)? What makes her first code name less important than her 2nd & 3rd? Also interesting, she tells the Beyonder that she's thought about calling herself "Timebomb" in her first appearance in SWII 5 which could be mentioned as well.
Last edited by metaldragon on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:45 pm

Somebody wrote:It does, but not in a way a |cf (other issue)| would help.
Agreed.

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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:11 pm

Michael wrote:Hank was Ant-Man in Hulk 154, Marvel Feature 4-10 and Captain Marvel 35-37. Basically, he was Ant-Man for a few years, then went back to being Yellowjacket in Defenders.
Dang, he was Ant-Man again for that long? Wow. Thanks!
Russ Chappell wrote:When Hank guest stars in a book due to his scientific prowess, we wouldn't say "IM 245 (as Hank Pym)", would we?
No, just like we wouldn't when Tony Stark shows up out of his Iron Man suit, or when Peter Parker is in a crowd taking pictures of something.
Somebody wrote:It does, but not in a way a |cf (other issue)| would help. You need to directly annotate that these are his appearances as Rama-Tut in some fashion, although I don't think that putting (as Rama-Tut) beside each entry is a particularly elegant solution!

Incidentally Fury, as I recall the Celestial Messiah arc, he was absolutely done with being Kang at that point - he even smashes his time machine, so needs to go into suspended animation when he decides to try and change his history by stopping Kang.
Well then, it sounds like we should put these appearances under Rama-Tut (with links & stuff).
metaldragon wrote:Angel (III) has been Archangel since X-Factor 38
metaldragon wrote:Also, why is Boom Boom listed as Boomer right from her first appearance up to when she changes it to Meltdown, when she was Boom Boom from XF 11 up until X-Force 19 (when she then changed it to Boomer)? What makes her first code name less important than her 2nd & 3rd?
Yep, this is what I'm talking about. We've been inconsistent, and I think it's time we brought everything into line.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Starman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Why not list everyone under their real name?

Parker, Peter
Pym, Henry
And so on.

Put the various codenames afterwards like this:
Parker, Peter (Spider-Man/Hornet/Prodigy/And so on.)

Something like that?
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:19 pm

Starman wrote:Why not list everyone under their real name?
As Russ said earlier:
Russ Chappell wrote:That's not intuitive at all, to take characters who have spent 90% of their published lives under code names and place the chronologies under their real names.
To elaborate, no one (or close to no one) is going to look for Spider-Man on the "P" page for Parker, Peter, or for the Thing on the "G" page for Grimm, Ben.

I haven't seen any comments on this yet:
Daron wrote:Now, if you look up Captain America #327 in the Search here at the MCP, it says that USAgent appears. Well, no, Super-Patriot is in that comic. (of course, we've already split up USAgent's chronology into his three identities, but the Search hasn't been updated to reflect that yet) We update USAgent to reflect his identities, then update the Search. Then (in the future after all of this happens), look up Captain America #327 in the Search, and it says that Super-Patriot appears. OK, cool, that reflects what character appears in the comic.
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Re: Naming conventions

Post by Starman » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:06 pm

Col_Fury wrote:To elaborate, no one (or close to no one) is going to look for Spider-Man on the "P" page for Parker, Peter, or for the Thing on the "G" page for Grimm, Ben.
Which is why you could have a referal links like this:
Spider-Man I (Peter Parker), See Parker, Peter Chronology Page
THING II/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM, See Grimm, Benjamin J.
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