CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:07 pm

Somebody wrote:
Daron wrote:they're both empowered by the Uni-Force and are wearing the Captain Universe colors;
(And going back to that mini, several of the superheroes involved barely even got the costume - Hulk was just Blue Hulk!)
Yep. That's why I said "colors" instead of "uniform." :wink: But don't forget those white pants! :)
Somebody wrote:Did I mention I *ALSO* disagree with calling every flame-headed Spirit of Vengeance "Ghost Rider" regardless of whether they used the name?
Not that I recall, no. :)

Well, for what it's worth, the Ghost Rider Index listed them all as Ghost Riders (using different names when possible to distinguish them), and the recent Handbook entry on Captain Universe uses "Captain Universe" and "Uni-Power host" as interchangeable terms, as well as picturing most of the Captain Universes/Uni-Power hosts, including Hulk and the Phalanx.

Also, I should mention that I was one of the head writers on the Ghost Rider Index, but I didn't have anything to do with the Captain Universe Handbook entry. :outtahere:
-Daron Jensen

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by Lonewolf36 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:14 pm

Somebody wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:But they're both empowered by the Uni-Force and are wearing the Captain Universe colors; they don't need to call themselves Captain Universe.
I disagree. If someone doesn't use a codename, we shouldn't list them under it. (And going back to that mini, several of the superheroes involved barely even got the costume - Hulk was just Blue Hulk!)
Col_Fury wrote:Some of the Ghost Riders didn't call themselves "Ghost Rider," and yet they're bonded to a Spirit of Vengeance and they're walking around as a flaming skeleton. They might have called themselves "Hellbilly" or "Undead G-Man" but they're still Ghost Riders.
Did I mention I *ALSO* disagree with calling every flame-headed Spirit of Vengeance "Ghost Rider" regardless of whether they used the name? Even if they're ghost riders, they're only Ghost Rider if they call themselves that.
I am split on this. The same Uni-Force empowers every Captain Universe and with the minor exception of a non-canon promo book where the Uni-Force empowered three kids each taking a different names Serenity, Professor Zenith and Frantic, all are considered Captain Universes. The Spirits of Vengeance are individuals who apparently name themselves and their have been numerous ones not named Ghost Rider such as Ghost Flyer, Hellbilly, Undead G-Man, Shark Rider ect. that they shouldn't automatically be considered Ghost Rider.

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by loki » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:18 am

Somebody wrote: Straight off, the Phalanx Scientist you have down as "CAPTAIN UNIVERSE XXVII" never used the name, for instance. Neither did the Hulk in Captain Universe/Hulk.
I'd imagine that since the Hulk has his own listing and was only very briefly empowered by the Uni-Power, though he is valid for bringing up as an example for this debate, the point is somewhat moot as far as his listing goes. He's not going to get a separate listing for this any more than Spider-Man gets a separate listing for Spider-Lizard, is he?

You've got a point with the likes of the Phalanx Scientist. I would note however that since it is generally the Uni-Power that tells them they have become Captain Universe (e.g. they don't pick the name), it might not matter that he didn't use the name himself. The Uni-Power would consider him Captain Universe. Since he didn't use it himself though, might I suggest taking a similar tack to the Marvel Appendix? List him as Captain Universe in quotes - "Captain Universe" - this makes it clear that the name isn't official, but since there's no other available name to list him under (unless you go with Phalanx Scientist), use the assumptive one but designate it as such. The same would hold true for Ghost Riders / Spirits of Vengeance who haven't been identified by a distinctive or specific name. In the absence of a better option, or even a civilian name, list them as Ghost Rider in quotes.
Last edited by loki on Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by Leoparis » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:49 am

Somebody wrote:I'm slightly torn. Not on the Uni-Power bit - I was the one who argued for it to be listed as such originally, and see attached Leoparis - but on the "listing EVERYONE who's ever bonded with it as Captain Universe" part AS Captain Universe, particularly after the Captain Universe/(team-up) series of one-shots where it "broke" and started talking rather than just wordlessly downloading what the marks needed to know.

Straight off, the Phalanx Scientist you have down as "CAPTAIN UNIVERSE XXVII" never used the name, for instance. Neither did the Hulk in Captain Universe/Hulk.
Thanks for the attachment. I would point to the use of the passive voice in that picture "I have been called the uni-power" i.e. that's what others call me, they call me a "power" because I "empower" them. I also disagree with the wording "empowers every Captain Universe", it empowers hosts who then become Captain Universe. There can't be a Captain Universe without the Uni-power.

It still makes more sense for me to replace Uni-power by Captain Universe in the listing.
The Doctor Spectrums are a different matter if only because they're from different alternate universes. The Krimonn Skrull crystal is also a later addition (still true for JMS' version?) while uni-power and Captain Universe have always been linked.

The Venom symbiote doesn't have a proper name either and even though we could presumably list it as symbiote (descriptive name) we list it as Venom (symbiote) because even though what we call Venom is a combination of symbiote plus host, it is the symbiote that makes the Venom character rather than the host.

If we do Captain Universe (Uni-power), I think this is fine.

(BTW why is the symbiote listed as BTS in early ASM appearances? Not only do we see it as a costume but it often moves or changes colors by itself)

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by loki » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:27 am

Leoparis wrote:
Somebody wrote:I'm slightly torn. Not on the Uni-Power bit - I was the one who argued for it to be listed as such originally, and see attached Leoparis - but on the "listing EVERYONE who's ever bonded with it as Captain Universe" part AS Captain Universe, particularly after the Captain Universe/(team-up) series of one-shots where it "broke" and started talking rather than just wordlessly downloading what the marks needed to know.

Straight off, the Phalanx Scientist you have down as "CAPTAIN UNIVERSE XXVII" never used the name, for instance. Neither did the Hulk in Captain Universe/Hulk.
Thanks for the attachment. I would point to the use of the passive voice in that picture "I have been called the uni-power" i.e. that's what others call me, they call me a "power" because I "empower" them. I also disagree with the wording "empowers every Captain Universe", it empowers hosts who then become Captain Universe. There can't be a Captain Universe without the Uni-power.
Yes, there could be. Anyone could take the name and wear the costume. Not disimilar to the way the first and third Blue Beetle's both being empowered by the scarab, but the second wasn't.
Leoparis wrote:It still makes more sense for me to replace Uni-power by Captain Universe in the listing.
Why? The Uni-Power is never called Captain Universe. Only the hosts get called that. Actually, you could make a case for listing the Uni-Power under Time Traveler or Enigma Force - http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/timetraveleref.htm - in which case, we've seen it appear without taking on a host.

Leoparis wrote:The Doctor Spectrums are a different matter if only because they're from different alternate universes.
Not so. All of Krimonn's hosts / users are from 616.
Leoparis wrote:The Krimonn Skrull crystal is also a later addition (still true for JMS' version?) while uni-power and Captain Universe have always been linked.
If by later addition you mean a retcon, then yes, it was the 616 Spectrum's second story that revealed Krimonn was the power prism. If you mean later as in "earlier Spectrumn's didn't have Krimonn" then no, Krimonn was with the 616 Spectrums from the outset.

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by Somebody » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:19 am

Col_Fury wrote:
Somebody wrote:
Daron wrote:they're both empowered by the Uni-Force and are wearing the Captain Universe colors;
(And going back to that mini, several of the superheroes involved barely even got the costume - Hulk was just Blue Hulk!)
Yep. That's why I said "colors" instead of "uniform." :wink:
In which case, what about Daredevil, who was in red & white? Or Sue Richards and Gladiator, who just got Mar-Vell star-shadows on their otherwise-unaltered normal costumes? None of whom used the name "Captain Universe"! (They didn't even get "You're Captain Universe" downloaded into their head - again, the Uni-Power was talking because it was broken and couldn't do that).
loki wrote:You've got a point with the likes of the Phalanx Scientist. I would note however that since it is generally the Uni-Power that tells them they have become Captain Universe (e.g. they don't pick the name), it might not matter that he didn't use the name himself. The Uni-Power would consider him Captain Universe.
I'm not even sure the Uni-Power would - it bonded with him only because it wanted to pick the Phalanx's hive-mind, and returned to Vargas immediately afterward!
loki wrote:Since he didn't use it himself though, might I suggest taking a similar tack to the Marvel Appendix? List him as Captain Universe in quotes - "Captain Universe" - this makes it clear that the name isn't official, but since there's no other available name to list him under (unless you go with Phalanx Scientist), use the assumptive one but designate it as such. The same would hold true for Ghost Riders / Spirits of Vengeance who haven't been identified by a distinctive or specific name. In the absence of a better option, or even a civilian name, list them as Ghost Rider in quotes.
I would prefer that to Fury's version - if and only if there's no civilian name or alternative codename to use, "Captain Universe"/"Ghost Rider" in quotation marks.

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by Leoparis » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:42 pm

loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote:
Somebody wrote:I'm slightly torn. Not on the Uni-Power bit - I was the one who argued for it to be listed as such originally, and see attached Leoparis - but on the "listing EVERYONE who's ever bonded with it as Captain Universe" part AS Captain Universe, particularly after the Captain Universe/(team-up) series of one-shots where it "broke" and started talking rather than just wordlessly downloading what the marks needed to know.

Straight off, the Phalanx Scientist you have down as "CAPTAIN UNIVERSE XXVII" never used the name, for instance. Neither did the Hulk in Captain Universe/Hulk.
Thanks for the attachment. I would point to the use of the passive voice in that picture "I have been called the uni-power" i.e. that's what others call me, they call me a "power" because I "empower" them. I also disagree with the wording "empowers every Captain Universe", it empowers hosts who then become Captain Universe. There can't be a Captain Universe without the Uni-power.
Yes, there could be. Anyone could take the name and wear the costume. Not disimilar to the way the first and third Blue Beetle's both being empowered by the scarab, but the second wasn't.
There never has been and probably never will be. We index based on "what is" not what "could be". But if and when that happens I'll be glad to have an appropriate Captain Universe II listing.
loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote:It still makes more sense for me to replace Uni-power by Captain Universe in the listing.
Why? The Uni-Power is never called Captain Universe. Only the hosts get called that. Actually, you could make a case for listing the Uni-Power under Time Traveler or Enigma Force - http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/timetraveleref.htm - in which case, we've seen it appear without taking on a host.
And the symbiote isn't called Venom it's the combination of symbiote and host that gets called Venom. I think I already said that. yes, I did. And we've seen the symbiote without a host as well.
As for Enigma Force, unfortunately that whole cosmology doesn't make head nor tail.
loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote:The Doctor Spectrums are a different matter if only because they're from different alternate universes.
Not so. All of Krimonn's hosts / users are from 616.
There are several Dr Spectrums from several universes. I already said that. You're talking only about 616 Dr Spectrums. But I'm not. I never was. What started the numbering on Dr Spectrums was their alternate universe versions.
Also even 616 Dr Spectrums aren't hosts of Krimonn. Krimonn is in the prism. So it's unlike the Uni-Power.
loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote:The Krimonn Skrull crystal is also a later addition (still true for JMS' version?) while uni-power and Captain Universe have always been linked.
If by later addition you mean a retcon, then yes, it was the 616 Spectrum's second story that revealed Krimonn was the power prism. If you mean later as in "earlier Spectrumn's didn't have Krimonn" then no, Krimonn was with the 616 Spectrums from the outset.
Yes, it's a retcon. Again you're talking only about 616 Dr Spectrums. What started the numbering on Dr Spectrums was their alternate universe versions. In that regard the Krimonn retcon is in the fourth or so appearance of a Dr Spectrum (all Dr Spectrums included).

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by loki » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:12 pm

Leoparis wrote:
loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote: Thanks for the attachment. I would point to the use of the passive voice in that picture "I have been called the uni-power" i.e. that's what others call me, they call me a "power" because I "empower" them. I also disagree with the wording "empowers every Captain Universe", it empowers hosts who then become Captain Universe. There can't be a Captain Universe without the Uni-power.
Yes, there could be. Anyone could take the name and wear the costume. Not disimilar to the way the first and third Blue Beetle's both being empowered by the scarab, but the second wasn't.
There never has been and probably never will be.
Which is entirely different from "There can't be a Captain Universe without the Uni-Power." You said it couldn't happen, I pointed out that it could. It might not be likely, but that isn't what you said originally.
Leoparis wrote:
loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote:It still makes more sense for me to replace Uni-power by Captain Universe in the listing.
Why? The Uni-Power is never called Captain Universe. Only the hosts get called that. Actually, you could make a case for listing the Uni-Power under Time Traveler or Enigma Force - http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/timetraveleref.htm - in which case, we've seen it appear without taking on a host.
And the symbiote isn't called Venom it's the combination of symbiote and host that gets called Venom. I think I already said that. yes, I did. And we've seen the symbiote without a host as well.
As for Enigma Force, unfortunately that whole cosmology doesn't make head nor tail.
The point of that cosmology is that the Uni-Power seems to come from the Enigma Force, or is another form of same. And the Enigma Force has appeared independent of hosts.
Leoparis wrote:
loki wrote:
Leoparis wrote:The Doctor Spectrums are a different matter if only because they're from different alternate universes.
Not so. All of Krimonn's hosts / users are from 616.
There are several Dr Spectrums from several universes. I already said that. You're talking only about 616 Dr Spectrums. But I'm not. I never was. What started the numbering on Dr Spectrums was their alternate universe versions.
So you are saying that you wouldn't have listed the 616 Spectrums individually if it wasn't for the Squadron Supreme version?
Leoparis wrote:Also even 616 Dr Spectrums aren't hosts of Krimonn. Krimonn is in the prism. So it's unlike the Uni-Power.
Krimonn has controlled some of those he transformed into Dr. Spectrum, which makes them hosts. However, it is unlike the Uni-Power, since it hasn't done that afaik (not sure about the current incarnation). In most respects the two are very similar - both are sentient entities that temporarily empower someone to take on a specific identity that has also been used by others similarly empowered, and while empowering their chosen candidates, the entities go along with the candidates for the ride and occasionally talk in their candidates' ears. The only real difference is that Krimonn is external to the person being empowered while the Uni-Power enters the empowered person's body.

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by Leoparis » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:45 pm

What about the Venom analogy? I never get any answer on that.

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Re: CAPTAIN UNIVERSE!

Post by loki » Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:57 pm

Leoparis wrote:What about the Venom analogy? I never get any answer on that.
I think there'd be a case to make for listing the various symbiotes independently of their hosts - obviously there'd be a lot of overlap, but given the Venom symbiote has gone through more than a few hosts and been seen active while hostless, other symbiotes have had multiple hosts, and there have been two Carnage symbiotes, there's a case to make for listing all of them. However, none of that changes the Captain Universe discussion. It would make sense to list the Enigma Force /Uni-Power with its own entry, but that would be as well as listing the various Captain Universes it has empowered, not instead of.

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