VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:39 pm

So, Venom.

Originally (or at least, nine years ago), the MCP had Eddie Brock and the Symbiote costume listed as one character under VENOM/EDDIE BROCK. Also, a lot of the Symbiote costume’s appearances pre-Eddie Brock were listed as -BTS.

Then, the posting board had a discussion about splitting the entries between Brock and the suit (you can see it in the Archives, messages ending in October 2004). This resulted in the listings we currently have, one for EDDIE BROCK and one for VENOM [SYMBIOTE]. However, a lot of the Symbiote’s early appearances are still -BTS (it's not -BTS, it's right there on-panel), and we never got around to splitting the other “color” Symbiotes from their hosts, or linking them to the Hybrid Symbiote.

But first, the Handbooks gave Eddie Brock and Mac Gargan profiles under the “Venom” name. If we follow suit and give the Venom code name to the hosts, what do we call Venom’s Symbiote? How about just “Symbiote” and not over think it? That’s usually what the comics call it, after all. OK, what about the other Symbiotes? Currently their hosts are listed as “Yellow Symbiote/Donna,” “Indigo Symbiote/Trevor,” etc. Since only one host took a code name (Scream, Donna, the yellow one) and the Symbiotes have never been given proper names, that seems to be as a good a way as any to distinguish them, so how about this:

SYMBIOTE/”VENOM”
SYMBIOTE II/”CARNAGE”
SYMBIOTE III/“SCREAM” (this is the yellow one)
SYMBIOTE IV/”GREEN”
SYMBIOTE V/”INDIGIO”
SYMBIOTE VI/“ORANGE”
SYMBIOTE VII/“VIOLET”
SYMBIOTE VIII/”HYBRID” (this is the combo of green, indigo, orange & violet)
SYMBIOTE IX/”NAVY” (this is a different, later one)
SYMBIOTE X/”CARNAGE II” (this is the one Cletus found in the Negative Zone)
SYMBIOTE XI/”VENOM II” [CLONE] (this is the one cloned from the original Symbiote’s tongue)
SYMBIOTE XII/”TOXIN”

Now sure, the Carnage, Scream, green, indigo, orange and violet Symbiotes are all spawns/offspring/children/whatever of the original Venom Symbiote, and the Toxin Symbiote is the spawn/whatever of the second Carnage Symbiote, but we don’t point out that Daken is Wolverine’s son (or the lineage of any character, really), so I don’t see any reason to point these out as offspring. I mean, half of them are the original Symbiotes’ kids, it wouldn’t do much good anyway.

Also, the original Symbiote has first appearance brackets around ASM 258. That’s the issue that revealed the suit was alive, but its first appearance was actually ASM 252. So that needs to be changed.

All right, moving on to the hosts.

The handbooks give full names for the Scream (yellow) (Donna Diego), green (Carl Mach), indigio (Trevor Cole), orange (Ramon Hernandez), violet (Leslie Gesneria), navy (George Strickland) and Hybrid (Scott Washington) Symbiote hosts, so we can update those.

Obviously, the suit was joined with Spider-Man for a while. Of course, Spider-Man wasn’t called Venom when he hosted the suit (mainly because the name didn’t exist until Brock got the suit, and well, he's Spider-Man). However, the original Symbiote also joined (briefly) with Eddie Brock’s ex-wife Ann Weying, she had teeth and everything, and was called “She-Venom.”

The Carnage Symbiote also joined (briefly) with John Jameson, Ben Reilly (as Spider-Carnage) and Silver Surfer (as Carnage Cosmic).

With all of that out of the way, let’s update the listings!

BROCK, EDDIE ALLAN CHARLES
From Venom
M/KSM 7
M/KSM 8
SENSM2 38-FB
ASM 533
SENSM2 38
SENSM2 39
ASM 568-FB
ASM 568
ASM 568/2
ASM 569
See Anti-Venom

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY

ASM 359
*See also Symbiote II
ASM 360

WTS 13
*See also Symbiote X
WTS 14


CARNAGE II/COL. JOHN JAMESON
See Col. John Jameson

CARNAGE COSMIC/NORRIN RADD
See Silver Surfer

*GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL (change name to GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL MACH)
*See also Symbiote IV
V:LP 4

V:SA 4
**V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

*HYBRID II (change name to HYBRID II/SCOTT WASHINGTON)
*From Scott Washington
*See also Symbiote VIII
V:ACS 2/2


*INDIGO SYMBIOTE/TREVOR (change name to INDIGO SYMBIOTE/TREVOR COLE)
*See also Symbiote V
V:LP 4

V:SA 4
**V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

JAMESON, COL. JOHN (Also MAN-WOLF)

ASM 410
*See also Symbiote II
S-M 67


*NAVY SYMBIOTE/GEORGE (change name to NAVY SYMBIOTE/GEORGE STRICKLAND)
V:HUNTED 2

*ORANGE SYMBIOTE/RAMON (change name to ORANGE SYMBIOTE/RAMON HERNANDEZ)
*See also Symbiote VI
V:LP 4

V:SA 3
**V:SA 4 (delete)
**V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

ROBERTSON, PATRICIA

VENOM 10
*See Venom II
**VENOM 14 (delete rest of chronology)

SCORPION III/MACDONALD GARGAN

M/KSM 9
**See also Venom (delete)
*See Venom IV
**M/KSM 10 (delete rest of chronology)

*YELLOW SYMBIOTE/DONNA (change name to SCREAM/DONNA DIEGO)
See also Symbiote III
V:LP 4


SHE-VENOM/ANN WEYING
See Ann Weying

SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD

ASM 430
*See also Symbiote II
ASM 431


SPIDER-CARNAGE/BEN REILLY [SPIDER-MAN CLONE]
See Spider-Man II

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER

M/SHSW 8
*See also Symbiote
M/SHSW 9


SPIDER-MAN II/BEN REILLY [SPIDER-MAN CLONE]

ASM 410
*See also Symbiote II
S-M 67


*VENOM [SYMBIOTE] (change name to SYMBIOTE/”VENOM”)
SMF2 1-FB
SPECSM3 4-FB
VSS 1-FB
*M/SHSW 8
*See also Spider-Man
*M/SHSW 9
*M/SHSW 10
*M/SHSW 11
*M/SHSW 12
*{ASM 252 (1 - 7)} (first appearance)
*ASM 252 (8) ~ M/TU 141 (13 - 14:3)
*ASM 252 (9 - 22)
*PPTSS 90
*M/TU 141 (14:4 - 22)
*1985 5
*1985 6
*1985 6-FB
*PPTSS 91 (1 - 7)
*ASM 253
*PPTSS 91 (8 - 22)
*H2 300
*ASM 254
*PPTSS 92
*M/TU 142
*M/TU 143
*ASM 255
*M/TU@ 7
*PPTSS 93
*M/TU 144
*M/GN 17
*PPTSS 94
*PPTSS 95
*M/TU 145
*KOP2 6
*ASM 256 (1 - 14)
*VSS 1/2-FB
*ASM 256 (15 - 22)
*ASM 257
*ASM 258 (1 - 10)
*M/TU 146
*PPTSS@ 4
*PPTSS@ 4/2
*ASM 258 (11 - 23) (not the first appearance)
S-H2 29
ASM 259

UO 7 (7)
*See also Venom
ASM@ 26/2 (3 - 8)

V:STA 2
*See also Ann Weying
V:STA 3

M/KSM 6
*See also Venom III
M/KSM 7
M/KSM 8
M/KSM 9
*See also Venom IV
M/KSM 10


SYMBIOTE II/”CARNAGE”
ASM 345
ASM 359
See also Carnage
ASM 360
ASM 361
ASM 362
ASM 363
ASMU 1
WOSM 101
ASM 378
S-M 35
PPTSS 201
WOSM 102
ASM 379
S-M 36
PPTSS 202
WOSM 103
ASM 380
S-M 37
PPTSS 203
ASMU 2
ASM@ 28
WOSM 117
ASM 394
PPTSS 217
V:CU 1
V:CU 2
V:CU 3
V:CU 4
ASMSS 1
S-MSS 1
VSS 1
PPTSSSS 1
WOSMSS 1
PPTSS 223
ASM 403
C:MB
ASM 410
See also Col. John Jameson
See also Spider-Man II
S-M 67
PPTSS 233
C:WL
V:OT 2
V:OT 3
ASM 430
See also Silver Surfer
ASM 431
PPSM2 10

SYMBIOTE III/“SCREAM”
See also Scream
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
WOSM 118
WOSM 119
S-M 52
S-M 53
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:HUNTED 1
V:HUNTED 2
V:HUNTED 3
V:TC 1
V:TC 2
V:TC 3

SYMBIOTE IV/”GREEN”
See also Green Symbiote
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Symbiote VIII

SYMBIOTE V/”INDIGIO”
See also Indigio Symbiote
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Symbiote VIII

SYMBIOTE VI/“ORANGE”
See also Orange Symbiote
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Symbiote VIII

SYMBIOTE VII/“VIOLET”
See also Violet Symbiote
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:ACS 1/2
See Symbiote VIII

SYMBIOTE VIII/”HYBRID”
From Symbiote IV, Symbiote V, Symbiote VI & Symbiote VII
See also Hybrid II
V:ACS 2/2
V:ACS 3/2
V:ACS 4/2
V:HUNTED 1/2
V:HUNTED 2/2
V:HUNTED 3/2

SYMBIOTE IX/”NAVY”
See also Navy Symbiote
V:HUNTED 2

SYMBIOTE X/”CARNAGE II”
See also Carnage
WTS 14
VVC 1
VVC 2
VVC 3
VVC 4
ALIAS 26-BTS
NA 2

*VENOM II (change name to SYMBIOTE XI/”VENOM II” [CLONE])

VENOM 10
*See also Patricia Robertson
VENOM 14


SYMBIOTE XII/”TOXIN”
See also Toxin II
VVC 2
VVC 3
VVC 4
TOXIN 1
TOXIN 2
TOXIN 3
TOXIN 4
TOXIN 5
TOXIN 6

TOXIN II/PATRICK MULLIGAN
VVC 1
*See also Symbiote XII
VVC 2


WEYING, ANN
ASM 375-FB
UO 7
ASM 375
V:STA 1
V:STA 2
*See also Symbiote
V:STA 3


*BROCK, EDDIE ALLAN CHARLES (change name to VENOM/EDDIE ALLAN CHARLES BROCK)
*See also Venom (delete)
V:SOD -1

UO 7 (7)
*See also Symbiote
ASM@ 26/2 (3 - 8)

M/KSM 6
*See Eddie Brock
**M/KSM 7 (delete rest of chronology)

VENOM II/PATRICIA ROBERTSON
From Patricia Robertson
See also Symbiote XI
VENOM 14
VENOM 15
VENOM 16
VENOM 17
VENOM 18

*FORTUNATO, ANGELO (change name to VENOM III/ANGELO FORUNATO)
M/KSM 6
*See also Symbiote
M/KSM 7
M/KSM 8

VENOM IV/MACDONALD GARGAN
From Scorpion III
See also Symbiote
M/KSM 10
M/KSM 11
M/KSM 12
TB2 1-FB
SECWAR 3
SECWAR 4
SECWAR 5-FB
CS:CS /6-BTS
BEYOND 1-BTS
BEYOND 2-BTS
BEYOND 4-BTS
BEYOND 5-BTS
BEYOND 6
SMFAM2 3/2
CW:CS 1
CW 4
CW 5
CW 6
CW 7 (1 - 3)
MSM2 14-FB-FB
CW:FL 10
CW 7 (8 - 12:1)
ASM 538
CW:I
NO4 2
NO4 3
TB 110
TB 111
TB 112
WWH:ADAMCON 1
WWH:ADAMCON 2
TB:DM-FB
TB 113
TB 114
TB 115
TB:BP (1 - 7)
SUB-M3 2-FB
SUB-M3 3-FB
SUB-M3 4-FB
TB:BP (14 - 22)
PEN:REL 1
PEN:REL 3
TB 116
TB 118
TB 119
TB 120
TB 121-BTS
TB:II
TB:RM
MK6 22
ASM 568
ASM 569
ASM 570
ASM 571
ASM 572
ASM 573
MK6 23
MK6 24
MK6 25
[TB 125]
[DARKA 1-FB]
NA 48
NA 49 (1 - 19)
[DARKA 1] ~ NA 49 (20 - 22)
[DARKA 2 (1 - 8)]
[DARKA 2 (9 - 10)] ~ NA 50 (10)
NA 50 (11 - 19)
[DARKA 2 (11 - 13)]
NA 50 (20 - 37)
[DARKA 2 (14 - 22)]
[W:O 34]
FCBD09:A 1
[S-H5 1]
[MA 21]
CA5 48
T 600
WARM2 11
[DARKW 75]
[HERC5 128]
ASM 596
[DARKA 6]
UTOPIA
[X 226]
UX 513
[DARKA 7]
UX 514
[DARKA 8]
EXODUS
[DARKA 9]
[DARKA 12]
NA 56
NA 57
NA 58
NA 59
NA 60
CA:REBORN 1
CA:REBORN 2
DRL:A 1
NA@ 3
[MA 32]
[SIEGE 3 (2 - 5)]
NA 63 (1 - 2)
[SIEGE 3 (8:1)] ~ [A:I 34 (13:3 - 14:1)]
NA 63 (3 - 9)
[SIEGE:SM 1]
[SIEGE 3 (16:2 - 16:3)]
NA 64
[SIEGE 4 (24:1 - 24:2)] ~ [DARKA 16 (2:1 - 2:2)-FB]
[DARKA 16 (2:4 - 11)-FB]

*VIOLET SYMBIOTE/LESLIE (change name to VIOLET SYMBIOTE/LESLIE GESNERIA)
*See also Symbiote VII
V:LP 4

V:SA 3
*V:ACS 1/2 (delete)

:mrgreen: :outtahere:
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3033
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Somebody » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:23 pm

Col_Fury wrote:But first, the Handbooks gave Eddie Brock and Mac Gargan profiles under the “Venom” name. If we follow suit and give the Venom code name to the hosts, what do we call Venom’s Symbiote? How about just “Symbiote” and not over think it? That’s usually what the comics call it, after all. OK, what about the other Symbiotes? Currently their hosts are listed as “Yellow Symbiote/Donna,” “Indigo Symbiote/Trevor,” etc. Since only one host took a code name (Scream, Donna, the yellow one) and the Symbiotes have never been given proper names, that seems to be as a good a way as any to distinguish them, so how about this:

SYMBIOTE/”VENOM”
SYMBIOTE II/”CARNAGE”
SYMBIOTE III/“SCREAM” (this is the yellow one)
SYMBIOTE IV/”GREEN”
SYMBIOTE V/”INDIGIO”
SYMBIOTE VI/“ORANGE”
SYMBIOTE VII/“VIOLET”
SYMBIOTE VIII/”HYBRID” (this is the combo of green, indigo, orange & violet)
SYMBIOTE IX/”NAVY” (this is a different, later one)
SYMBIOTE X/”CARNAGE II” (this is the one Cletus found in the Negative Zone)
SYMBIOTE XI/”VENOM II” [CLONE] (this is the one cloned from the original Symbiote’s tongue)
SYMBIOTE XII/”TOXIN”
Four words: "Planet of the Symbiotes".

Not only is it a race name, not a name/codename, but there's literally thousands of the buggers who appeared in there if you're going to try and list Symbiote (number).

I'd list the gooey symbiont-type-things as VENOM SYMBIOTE, CARNAGE SYMBIOTE, SCORN SYMBIOTE, etc. That's usually how they're referred to.

Oh, and Carnage USA called the ripped-back-apart Hybrid symbiotes Lasher (green), Agony (purple/violet), Phage (orange) and Riot (presumably indigo - never really get a shot in neutral light).

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:47 pm

Somebody wrote:Oh, and Carnage USA called the ripped-back-apart Hybrid symbiotes Lasher (green), Agony (purple/violet), Phage (orange) and Riot (presumably indigo - never really get a shot in neutral light).
Thanks! Do the seperated Symbiotes get new hosts?

Also, I guess it's time for me to read Carnage USA.
-Daron Jensen

Lonewolf36
Hero
Hero
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 8:45 pm
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Lonewolf36 » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:36 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
Somebody wrote:Oh, and Carnage USA called the ripped-back-apart Hybrid symbiotes Lasher (green), Agony (purple/violet), Phage (orange) and Riot (presumably indigo - never really get a shot in neutral light).
Thanks! Do the seperated Symbiotes get new hosts?

Also, I guess it's time for me to read Carnage USA.
Agony/Lieutenant James Murphy
Lasher/Chief Petty Officer Marcus Simms
Phage/Lieutenant. Rico Axelson
Riot/Petty Officer Howard Ogden

There is also
Scorn/Dr. Tanis Nieves - Carnage/Carnage USA series
Mania/Andi Benton - Venom series

loki
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by loki » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:42 pm

Somebody wrote: Oh, and Carnage USA called the ripped-back-apart Hybrid symbiotes Lasher (green), Agony (purple/violet), Phage (orange) and Riot (indigo).
Yes, annoyingly the writer didn't realise that Wikipedia was listing them under names fans had made up and used them in the comic. It should be noted that, while the current hosts use those codenames, and while I guess it will inevitably be necessary to use those codenames to clarify which symbiote is which, that those codenames do not apply to the previous hosts, any more than Spider-Man would be identified as Venom because the symbiote he once wore became associated with that codename.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:58 pm

Hmn.

Carnage USA #2 makes it a point to mention that the four "color" Symbiotes don't act the way they're supposed to after they were split up from the merged Symbiote (Hybrid's suit) (meaning, they were changed by the process of seperation), and when they're introduced, the Symbiotes have names, not the users.

An example:
Lieutenant James Murphy, Navy SEAL. Heavy munitions. Assigned bio-weapon: Agony.

Meaning, it's not Agony/Lt. James Murphy, it's Murphy, Lt. James and Agony [Symbiote]. Agony is the weapon and Murphy uses it.

I'll have to process this.

-edit-

I see loki posted while I was typing this up. I've only read through Carnage USA #2 so far. Do the users start referring to each other as "Agony" and "Lasher" in later issues? Because the Lasher Symbiote (the green one) is not on a person, but on a dog. And Marcus Simms uses Lasher(dog/Symbiote).
-Daron Jensen

loki
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by loki » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:19 am

Col_Fury wrote:Hmn.

Carnage USA #2 makes it a point to mention that the four "color" Symbiotes don't act the way they're supposed to after they were split up from the merged Symbiote (Hybrid's suit) (meaning, they were changed by the process of seperation), and when they're introduced, the Symbiotes have names, not the users.

An example:
Lieutenant James Murphy, Navy SEAL. Heavy munitions. Assigned bio-weapon: Agony.

Meaning, it's not Agony/Lt. James Murphy, it's Murphy, Lt. James and Agony [Symbiote]. Agony is the weapon and Murphy uses it.

I'll have to process this.

-edit-

I see loki posted while I was typing this up. I've only read through Carnage USA #2 so far. Do the users start referring to each other as "Agony" and "Lasher" in later issues? Because the Lasher Symbiote (the green one) is not on a person, but on a dog. And Marcus Simms uses Lasher(dog/Symbiote).
Not sure if the users do, but fans online have done so. And applied the codenames retroactively to the past hosts. Both of which irk my ingrained need to aspire to accurate chronicling.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:29 am

I've now read #3, and they're still calling the Symbiotes "Lasher," etc. The people are still calling each other by their people names.

At the moment, I'm under the impression to list them as

SYMBIOTE IV/"GREEN" (comic appearances) -> see Symbiote VIII -> (comic appearances as SYMBIOTE VIII/"HYBRID") -> see Lasher (comic appearances as LASHER [SYMBIOTE])

and

GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL MACH (comic appearances, dies) and SIMMS, MARCUS (comic appearances)

Which doesn't help this much:
Somebody wrote:I'd list the gooey symbiont-type-things as VENOM SYMBIOTE, CARNAGE SYMBIOTE, SCORN SYMBIOTE, etc.
Because then we'd have:

GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL MACH
and
GREEN SYMBIOTE

Which is odd.

More processing…
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3033
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Somebody » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:43 am

loki wrote:
Somebody wrote: Oh, and Carnage USA called the ripped-back-apart Hybrid symbiotes Lasher (green), Agony (purple/violet), Phage (orange) and Riot (indigo).
Yes, annoyingly the writer didn't realise that Wikipedia was listing them under names fans had made up and used them in the comic. It should be noted that, while the current hosts use those codenames, and while I guess it will inevitably be necessary to use those codenames to clarify which symbiote is which, that those codenames do not apply to the previous hosts, any more than Spider-Man would be identified as Venom because the symbiote he once wore became associated with that codename.
The name "Lasher" originally comes from the Planet of the Symbiotes toy of the green Life Foundation symbiote host, just as "Scream" debuted as a name for the yellow one there. ["Riot" sort of does too - it was applied to a purple symbiote character in that toyline, but it was a four-armed male, not the female who got the violet symbiote in the MU, let alone the indigo symbiote Carnage USA gave the name to.]
Col_Fury wrote:Which doesn't help this much:
Somebody wrote:I'd list the gooey symbiont-type-things as VENOM SYMBIOTE, CARNAGE SYMBIOTE, SCORN SYMBIOTE, etc.
Because then we'd have:

GREEN SYMBIOTE/CARL MACH
and
GREEN SYMBIOTE

Which is odd.
Well, the answer to that is simple - don't list something which is not a codename as if it were a codename! Carl Mach was never "the Green Symbiote" like Green Arrow or the Green Hornet. He was bonded to the green symbiote (note lowercase), also known as Lasher.

Seriously, SYMBIOTE I/"VENOM" is like listing MUTANT I/"APOCALYPSE"/EN SABAH NUR. Or INHUMAN I/"BLACK BOLT". Or... you get the idea. It's a really, really stupid way of listing them.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:07 am

Somebody wrote:Carl Mach was never "the Green Symbiote" like Green Arrow or the Green Hornet.
That's true.

Processing…
-Daron Jensen

loki
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by loki » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:17 am

Somebody wrote:
loki wrote:
Somebody wrote: Oh, and Carnage USA called the ripped-back-apart Hybrid symbiotes Lasher (green), Agony (purple/violet), Phage (orange) and Riot (indigo).
Yes, annoyingly the writer didn't realise that Wikipedia was listing them under names fans had made up and used them in the comic. It should be noted that, while the current hosts use those codenames, and while I guess it will inevitably be necessary to use those codenames to clarify which symbiote is which, that those codenames do not apply to the previous hosts, any more than Spider-Man would be identified as Venom because the symbiote he once wore became associated with that codename.
The name "Lasher" originally comes from the Planet of the Symbiotes toy of the green Life Foundation symbiote host, just as "Scream" debuted as a name for the yellow one there. ["Riot" sort of does too - it was applied to a purple symbiote character in that toyline, but it was a four-armed male, not the female who got the violet symbiote in the MU, let alone the indigo symbiote Carnage USA gave the name to.]
Valid point, and given I just said I like to recount things accurately I shouldn't have then generalised with my statement. I know Scream and Lasher initially came from the toys, so there was a level of legitimacy there. As you note, Riot was a completely different toy, and Xenophage, not Phage, was the symbiote's enemy, so applying a varation of it to a symbiote was just bizarre. As for Agony, that name was purely a fan creation.

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3033
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Somebody » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:53 am

And just to clarify, when I said 'Four words: "Planet of the Symbiotes".' upthread, I wasn't talking about the toyline, but the Annual "Super-Special" crossover with scenes such as these:
ImageImageImageImage

[See why I think "SYMBIOTE #" is a really bad idea, Fury?]

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:31 am

I've now read all of the Carnage USA mini, and not only do the intro captions note a difference between the symbiotes and their users in #2-5, but in #5 the intro captions call the symbiote-less Cletus "Carnage" and the symbiote-less Flash "Venom." So there's that.

In theory, this is what it would look like if we called them VENOM SYMBIOTE, CARNAGE SYMBIOTE, etc.

CARNAGE/CLETUS KASADY
CARNAGE SYMBIOTE
CARNAGE SYMBIOTE II

MACH, CARL
GREEN SYMBIOTE

HYBRID II/SCOTT WASHINGTON
HYBRID SYMBIOTE

COLE, TREVOR
INDIGO SYMBIOTE

STRICKLAND, GEORGE
NAVY SYMBIOTE

HERNANDEZ, RAMON
ORANGE SYMBIOTE

SCREAM/DONNA DIEGO
SCREAM SYMBIOTE

TOXIN II/PATRICK MULLIGAN
TOXIN SYMBIOTE

VENOM/EDDIE BROCK
VENOM SYMBIOTE (see below)
VENOM SYMBIOTE II [CLONE]

GESNERIA, LESLIE
VIOLET SYMBIOTE

Using the green one as an example, here's how it would look like with a chronology:

GREEN SYMBIOTE
See also Carl Mach
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4
V:ACS 1/2
See Hybrid symbiote

HYBRID SYMBIOTE
From green symbiote, indigio symbiote, orange symbiote & violet symbiote
See also Hybrid II
V:ACS 2/2
V:ACS 3/2
V:ACS 4/2
V:HUNTED 1/2
V:HUNTED 2/2
V:HUNTED 3/2
(other appearances, presumably)
See Agony, Lasher, Phage & Riot

LASHER [SYMBIOTE]
From Hybrid symbiote
CARNAGE USA 2
CARNAGE USA 3
CARNAGE USA 4
CARNAGE USA 5

MACH, CARL
See also green symbiote
V:LP 4
V:LP 5
V:SA 2-FB
V:SA 1
V:SA 2
V:SA 3
V:SA 4

SIMMS, MARCUS
CARNAGE USA 2
CARNAGE USA 3
CARNAGE USA 4
CARNAGE USA 5

Marcus Simms isn't a host for Lasher like Cletus Kasady is a host for the Carnage symbiote, so I don't see a need to put a "See Lasher" link in Marcus Simms' listing (or a "See Marcus Simms" link in Lasher's listing).

What about when the original symbiote was Spider-Man's suit, before Eddie Brock got it? It wasn't called Venom-anything when Spider-Man had it. Maybe in that case call it SYMBIOTE, then link to VENOM SYMBIOTE when Eddie gets it? It seems strange to call it "BLACK SYMBIOTE" because at the time (the '80s) there were no other nameless symbiotes to differentiate it from (that we knew about). Or, SPIDER-MAN'S ALIEN COSTUME [SYMBIOTE]? Hmn. :?
-Daron Jensen

Leoparis
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:32 am

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Leoparis » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:09 am

The official codename for Flash Thompson is Agent Venom though fans got confused due to his comic book title being just Venom

User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

Re: VENOM! (and the Symbiotes)

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:10 am

Col_Fury wrote:What about when the original symbiote was Spider-Man's suit, before Eddie Brock got it? It wasn't called Venom-anything when Spider-Man had it. Maybe in that case call it SYMBIOTE, then link to VENOM SYMBIOTE when Eddie gets it?
I would prefer to call it VENOM [SYMBIOTE], and list the chronology there. In the case of Venom, the name is Venom, regardless of who the symbiote bonds with. The fact that it wasn't called Venom when Spider-Man had it doesn't mean anything to me. If the Royal Turntable first appears in Blue Sandwich #31 as some kind of mysterious unnamed crimelord who's referred to only as "Boss," and doesn't receive a name until Blue Sandwich #32, his chronology looks like this:

ROYAL TURNTABLE/MYRON HERSHBERG
BS 31
BS 32

Doesn't matter that he isn't called Royal Turntable in BS 31. Likewise, if he first appears without a name in BS 31 and is in the next consecutive 100 issues of BS, before finally receiving a name in BS 132.

Locked