INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 5328
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:41 pm

There is a Black Knight story in Original Sins #2

A young woman who is an authority on the Black Knights named Rebecca Stevens finds Dane Whitman and pleads with him to give up the ebony blade, knowing his secrets after being at the Information Bomb in Manhattan. He appears to be loosing control.

While this story happens after Original Sin, I think that Avengers World could and will have to predate this.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:15 pm

In AWORLD 10, there's an editor's note that says to check out Original Sins to find out about Black Knight's mental problems. So it's possible that Black Knight was having problems before AWORLD, and then Rebecca Stevens finds out about those problems in Original Sin, right?

OK, that works for me. Thanks!
-Daron Jensen

Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 5328
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:47 pm

It's more of a bloodlust, caused by the sword than a mental problem, but yeah he could have been slipping over a period of time.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:13 pm

Just read Original Sins, which reminded me of a comment made about Lineage, the Inhuman that has the personalities of dead Inhumans related to him in his body. It was suggested that Inhuman #4-6 happens after Original Sin because of what he discovered in this story, but I don't see why he couldn't have learned this after he started hanging out in New Attilan.
-Daron Jensen

Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 5328
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:05 am

You have Inhuman #4-6 at the tail end of your list right before Original Sin. The Lineage story in Original Sins #3 takes place during the release of the "Information Bomb." What else needs to be moved by moving #4-6 after Original Sin?

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:18 am

Sorry, I typed that out pretty quick. :)

In some other thread (one of the topics is linked to in the first post, I've misplaced the direct link to the specific post), someone said that because Lineage learned stuff about Black Bolt during Original Sin, then Inhuman #4-6 should happen after Original Sin.

I don't think that's necessary. I don't see why Lineage can't start hanging out with the Inhumans, and then learn stuff about Black Bolt during Original Sin. Meaning, I think Inhuman #4-6 is just fine before Original Sin.

I'm basically going through old discussions again to make sure all points are covered. Sorry for any confusion!
-Daron Jensen

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:54 am

Here's my interpretation of Lineage's chronology:

Lineage learns of Black Bolt's encounter with the Kree and about the existence of the Nu-humans in Original Sins #3 (which happens during Original Sin) and starts to make plans. He carries out his plans by going to New Attilan in Inhuman #2, where he tells Medusa he knows things about Black Bolt. And surely Lineage would already know about Nu-humans if he had arrived in New Attilan before Original Sins #3.

Inhuman #2 follows directly from Inhuman #1 so Original Sin happens before the Inhuman series begins.
Paul B.

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:01 am

Issues #13, #14/2, #15/2, #16/2, #17/2, and #18/2 of A+X all happen in one day and night. Because Irma Cuckoo’s hair is dyed here, this story arc must occur after UX3 9 and thus after ANX 14.
Paul B.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:52 am

The Lineage thing is sloppy, no doubt. But I'm having a hard time placing all of the Inhuman series after Original Sin because of him.

INH 1-3 show Attilan recovering from the INFINITY crossover. INH 4-6 has Thor with Mjolnir. And doesn't Lockjaw have to appear in these early issues before he's sent to appear in Ms. Marvel v3?

My interpretation is that Lineage learns that Black Bolt's responsible for the Inhumans' current situation because of attacking Kree scientists in the Original Sins issue. He must have been talking about something else in INH 2. I'm fuzzy at the moment; did Medusa and the Inhumans know Black Bolt released the Terrigen Mists purposefully during INFINITY? Could Lineage have been talking about that in INH 2?

Lineage got his own powers during/right after INFINITY. There's no way he didn't learn about Nu-Humans until during Original Sin.

If we just focus on Lineage learning about Black Bolt attacking Kree scientists in Original Sins #3 and ignore the other "implications," everything else falls into place.

Or, to put it another way, Lineage's plan can be re-interpreted. Otherwise, the immediacy of INH 1-3 happening after INFINITY would have to be ignored, and Thor's hammer in INH 4-6 would have to be ignored (yes, I'm aware of Thorr's hammer, but bleh). Re-interpreting Original Sins #3 causes less damage, I think.
-Daron Jensen

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:18 am

Sorry, I misread my own notes -- in Original Sins #3, Lineage learned of Black Bolt's prior discovery of the humans who are genetically linked to Inhumans (and Black Bolt's intention to release the Terrigen Mist to activate their powers.) So we don't have to worry about when Lineage did or did not himself learn about Nu-humans around the world.

I interpreted Thor as having Thorr's hammer. I'd hate to reinterpret Lineage's chronology just for that.
Paul B.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6310
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:30 pm

Guess what? I picked up the Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business OGN.

Peter Parker is Spider-Man and is financially sound (if not responsible). Kingpin’s out of the country and Mentallo is in a mental hospital.

This was published the same month as Superior Spider-Man #27-28, but obviously this can’t happen while Dr. Octopus is Spider-Man. Also published the same month as Secret Avengers v2 #15-16, which ends with Mentallo as some kind of nanobot swarm of ell-like creatures, or something. I guess that didn’t last too long, and that’s why he’s in a mental hospital here.

This has to happen after SECA2 16, and after SUPSM 32 (and by extension, ASM3 1-2). Published before Amazing X-Men v2 #7, so probably before that.

I’m leaning toward before Iron Patriot #1-5 (this was published the month before Iron Patriot #1).

It’s already placed, but I’m reading the X-Men OGN next. Gotta read ‘em all! :)
-Daron Jensen

Clive_Reston
Hero
Hero
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Clive_Reston » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:01 am

Another little Spider-Man chronology note:

As of Superior Spider-Man Team-Up #5-7, Parker Industries already has its headquarters--so it has to at least be after SUPSM 20-21. SUPSMTU 8 happens shortly after 5-7--the Hatut Zeraze (or, rather, Hatut Zeraze robots!) appear, but they only mention their allegiance to Shuri, not T'Challa, so it's still fine for that to be after New Avengers 12.

But I think the only cue that SUPSMTU 5-8 take place (almost) immediately after Inhumanity is that there's smoke coming off of Manhattan in the first panel of #5. There's smoke in Manhattan lots of times... so I'd think that sequence would make more sense to move to fit between SUPSM 21 and 22.

The Superior Foes lineup of the Sinister "Six" is seen in (one panel of) SUPSMTU 6. That's a bit of a problem because of the Black Cat and the Owl: because of Black Cat, Superior Foes has to all happen before SUPSM #20 or after ASM3 #2, and since the Owl has moved out to San Francisco before ASM3 starts, it'd have to be still later, after (at least the bulk of) DD4 18. (Is there a reason I'm overlooking that it can't move there? The group has already formed as of Superior Foes #1; perhaps they've been around for a while?)

It's also worth noting that Superior Foes #7 takes place significantly before the rest of the series--it spans 25 years, ending shortly before the new Beetle's first appearance (in Captain America #607). Superior Foes #11 definitely involves Octavius as Spider-Man, but it also doesn't include any (!) of the series' regular cast, and I don't see why it couldn't happen basically anywhere in the Octavius era.

Clive_Reston
Hero
Hero
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Clive_Reston » Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:42 am

A couple more notes on this sequence (sorry for the late nitpicking)!

It seems to be missing Superior Spider-Man Annual 1, which I believe should go between SUPSM 21 and 22.

And I think it's definitely going to have to integrate Iron Man: Fatal Frontier. 1, 2, and 3 (1-70) take place very shortly after IM6 17 (so back in the AVX to INFINITY sequence). Then there's a "three-month" break--inconvenient, especially since there's also a three-month break in IM6 16, but one or both could be contracted. The rest of it happens sometime before Iron Man Annual 1 (also not on this sequence: the first two stories in the Annual are between IM6 22 and 23, and the third happens over a span of six months, ending shortly before the second half of IM6 16).

It'd be easy enough to put a break between IM:FF 7 and 8, but given the long break in issue 3, I'm inclined to stick the rest of it (and the Annual) as close to IM6 23 as seems reasonable.

Another interesting thing in terms of character chronologies: IM:FF appears to include the first appearance of post-Secret Wars Dr. Doom (who's traveled back in time for his appearance here)! He says a few cryptic things in #9 about future events, but specifically mentions the Demiurge... who we know from Kieron Gillen's Young Avengers and Al Ewing's recent New Avengers is what Wiccan is becoming.

Clive_Reston
Hero
Hero
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Clive_Reston » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:20 pm

Yet another small adjustment: per a note in Mighty Avengers v2 #8, that issue happens simultaneously with Loki: Agent of Asgard #2 (Power Man gets a text from Loki in the middle of his heist). [EDITED TO ADD: ...No it doesn't. It happens simultaneously with a flashback in L:AoA #2. My bad, sorry!]

I think you also mentioned that MA2 10 begins right after #9; while the ending of #9 looks like a cliffhanger, the beginning of #10 actually seems to pick up an indefinite amount of time later, but before Original Sin. (Blade indicates that he's been fighting off various kinds of were-creatures that have come after him in the meantime, and that the opening scene of #10 happens sometime after Deadpool #27.)

Clive_Reston
Hero
Hero
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN

Post by Clive_Reston » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:25 am

A little clarification on late-period Octavius-as-Spidey:

SUPSM 27-28
SUPSM@ 2
ASM3 1/2
ASM3 1/3 -FB
SUPSM 29
SUPSMTU 11 (pg. 1 only; the rest is a FB to the mid-300s of ASM; the flashback continues in most of SUPSMTU 12, going up through Spider-Man Unlimited #3 and a bit beyond)
SUPSM 30-31 (and then SUPSM 31/2)
ASM3 1
(the final page of SUPSMTU 12 seems to be concurrent with ASM3 1 pg. 14)
ASM3 1/3 is concurrent with ASM3 1 pg. 15
ASM3 2
[then a break before:]
ASM3 1/6
ASM3 1/5 apparently happens a bit later--it's a lead-in to Spider-Man 2099 v2 #1

Note also that ASM3 1 -FB (1:4 - 2:6) goes between PPSSM 60/2 (4:6 - 4:7) and AFSY 15 (3:6).

ASM3 1/7 (a lead-in to "Learning to Crawl") mostly takes place concurrently with AFSY 15.

Post Reply