Rehabilitating Siri

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robfj
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Rehabilitating Siri

Post by robfj » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:05 am

As has been pointed out in the thread 'Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42', the Skrull Elektra has been called by 2 names - Pagon and Siri. The name Siri was only used in New Avengers 40 where she reports to Veranke on Tarnax before V comes to Earth to replace Spider-Woman. There she claims to have interacted as Elektra with Nick Fury, Daredevil, Wolverine and the Hand without being uncovered. The name Pagon was only used in the section of Mighty Avengers 16 where Veranke sends her to take over Hand. You have taken the generally accepted view that these were 2 different Skrulls both imitating Elektra. (We all ignore the entry for Siri in Skrulls! which claims that she was the only Skrull-Elektra.)

An early part of MA 16 shows the real Elektra killing a Skrull that looks like her, but then being defeated by another Skrull who takes on her appearance. You have interpreted this as Siri being killed and Pagon taking over, which the chronological sequencing of the sections of the issue does suggest. But this does imply that Siri never replaced Elektra, just impersonated her while she was elsewhere.

Siri's claims in NA 40 were probably meant by Bendis to imply that she was the Elektra in Wolverine 20-31 (Enemy Of The State and Agent Of SHIELD arcs which involved Nick Fury, Wolverine and Hand) and Daredevil 76-81 (The Murdock Papers arc where she interacted with Daredevil and Hand). But Dark Reign: Elektra 5 seems to say that the real Elektra was there for the Wolverine issues. And Pagon took over the Hand, so Elektra running the Hand in the DD issues suggests that it was Pagon there.

This leaves Siri with no actual activity in the field. So you list her as just appearing in NA 40 and then MA 16 where she gets killed. All this together implies that Siri's interactions with the named characters was in other unspecified and undocumented events, at times when the real Elektra wasn't around to confuse things.

The current sequences for the 2 Skrulls follow.
I've split MA 16 into page-ranges to make it clearer what's going on.

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER/SIRI
NA 40 Siri-Elektra tells Veranke about her successful infiltration.
MA 16 (3-16)-FB Elektra kills (Siri)-Elektra but is defeated by (Pagon)-Elektra.

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER II/PAGON
MA 16 (3-16)-FB Elektra kills (Siri)-Elektra but is defeated by (Pagon)-Elektra.
MA 16 (17-18)-FB Veranke tells Pagon-Elektra to go on a suicide mission to kickstart the Human/Skrull war.
MA 16 (19-22)-FB The Skrull-Elektra takes over the Hand.
MA 16 (1-2)-FB Skrull-Elektra and Hand hire Electro to cause the Ryker's Island breakout in NA 1.
{NA 1} A shadowed figure gives Electro his instructions. This is the 1st published appearance of Pagon.
NA 45 Veranke meets with Skrull-Elektra and others to tell them about M-Day and the Annihilation Wave.
DD2 77-80 Skrull-Elektra comes to the aid of Daredevil, incuding Hand in 80.
DD2 88-BTS The Hand help Foggy Nelson.
MA 14-FB Veranke meets with Skrull-Elektra and others as Skrull-Jarvis gets them access to Avengers files.
NA 27 The beginning of the tale that leads to Skrull-Elektra's death and unmasking.
.....


I would like to give Siri a bit more of the action.

But 1st notice that no Skrulls are named in the section of MA 16 where the real Elektra kills a Skrull Elektra, and then a 2nd 1 defeats her.

Note also that NA 40 holds Siri up as proof that the new advanced technique of becoming an indetectable copy works. A technique that requires DNA and other samples from the original, but also uses magic and tech to somehow give the Skrull the victim's personality and memories. And Veranke's transformation to Jessica Drew in NA 42 suggests more strongly than any other case that they need the victim's presence for this new method to work. So they're not just abducting people to allow them to be replaced. If Siri is proof of concept for this system then they must have abducted Elektra to do it.

This argues against Siri being the Skrull that Elektra kills in MA 16 (who would just be an enhanced Skrull doing normal shapeshifting), and suggests that it is Siri who captures Elektra there. Note that this argument is independent of the question whether any particular appearances can be attached to Siri. It merely says that for Siri to be the success that is claimed she has to have 'become' a captured Elektra - and they wouldn't have let Elektra go after that.

This changes the sequences a bit.

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER/SIRI
MA 16 (3-16)-FB Elektra kills a Skrull-Elektra but is defeated by Siri-Elektra.
NA 40 Siri-Elektra tells Veranke about her successful infiltration.

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER II/PAGON
(MA 16 (3-16)-FB no longer belongs here.)
MA 16 (17-18)-FB Veranke tells Pagon-Elektra to go on a suicide mission to kickstart the Human/Skrull war.
MA 16 (19-22)-FB The Skrull-Elektra takes over the Hand.
MA 16 (1-2)-FB Skrull-Elektra and Hand hire Electro to cause the Ryker's Island breakout in NA 1.
{NA 1} A shadowed figure gives Electro his instructions. This is the 1st published appearance of Pagon.
.....

There is no longer any appearance which tells us how and why Siri was replaced by Pagon. (Of course this brings back the possibility mooted in the Forum thread that Pagon *is* Siri. Veranke seems very close to Pagon in NA 40, so maybe Pagon is a Skrull term of endearment, or a 'secret' name only known to a select few, or it's just that the full name is Pagon Siri. Or Siri is a codename because Skrulls! refers to her as Agent Siri. But I'm not going that way.)


I would also like to suggest a way of giving some of the originally suggested apps back to Siri.

1st I'll look at exactly what DR:EL 5 says. Elektra had been claiming during the mini-series that she *didn't* do what she's accused of in the Wolverine story, and it must have been the Skrull who replaced her. But in p17-18 Norman Osborn tells her that she blanked the whole thing out of her mind (for reasons not relevant here). He persuades her to remove the mental block, and she remembers the events.

But significantly Osborn claims that captured Skrulls say that she was replaced 'shortly after the Blackhawk disaster', and Elektra doesn't disagree with him. She is only shown remembering up to W3 27 where she led the attack that destroyed the Blackhawk helicarrier, including seriously wounding Nick Fury. In the following issues Logan hunted down the Hand, Elektra and Gorgon, but he started off in W3 28 by going after Northstar's gang, and this appeared to take some time. So 'shortly after the Blackhawk disaster' could mean that Siri replaced Elektra before she resurfaced in W3 29.

This would certainly allow her to interact with Wolverine and the Hand. And in W3 29 Elektra was revealed as an undercover SHIELD agent. In W3 30 she was back working openly for them at 1 of their bases. So Siri could have 'interacted' with Fury in his hospital room at this time or after the whole thing was over in W3 31.

For this to be useful as part of Siri's successful infiltration W3 29-31 would have to happen before she reports to Veranke in NA 40, and thus before V's 1st published app as Spider-Woman in NA 1. W3 29-31 is certainly before House of M because W3 33-35 are part of that Event. W3 29-31 is the end of the long storyline W3 20-31 whose start was published before NA 1. You have placed it all (with many intervening issues) before NA 4 where Logan joins the NA 1-6 arc.

So it is feasible to make the next change:-

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER/SIRI
MA 16 (3-16)-FB Elektra kills a Skrull-Elektra but is defeated by Siri-Elektra.
W3 29-31 Siri-Elektra replaces Elektra after the Blackhawk incident.
NA 40 Siri-Elektra tells Veranke about her successful infiltration.

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER II/PAGON
MA 16 (17-18)-FB Veranke tells Pagon-Elektra to go on a suicide mission to kickstart the Human/Skrull war.
MA 16 (19-22)-FB Pagon-Elektra takes over the Hand.
MA 16 (1-2)-FB Pagon-Elektra and Hand hire Electro to cause the Ryker's Island breakout in NA 1.
{NA 1} A shadowed figure gives Electro his instructions. This is the 1st published appearance of Pagon.
.....



I've justified Siri's claims to have fooled Wolverine and the Hand, and with a bit of hand-waving Nick Fury. But we're still missing Daredevil. It would be useful if we could add DD2 77-80, but that's not so easy. It starts the long run where he is sent to jail, escapes and goes abroad. He doesn't return until after Civil War in Fallen Son: Wolverine. Danny Rand replaces Matt Murdock as DD in some of the issues after 80 and in Civil War. There are lots of other DD apps that must be fitted in before DD2 77-80. So you have understandably placed DD2 77-80 after House of M, and therefore after NA 1 and NA 40.

The easiest solution is to suggest instead that Siri-Elektra visited Daredevil in some undocumented moments. After all they are close, and it would be natural for Siri to use him a severe test of her disguise.

If it *were* possible to move DD2 77-80 to before NA 1 then I could offer a reasonable explanation as to why Elektra was Siri at the time. The rationale for making this Skrull Pagon is that Elektra is leading the Hand here, and Pagon was tasked as Elektra with taking them over. But an epilogue to W3 31 says that Elektra has gone away to create her own mercenary version of the Hand, whereas MA 16 shows Pagon fighting her way to the top of an existing organisation. So the Hand that turns up in DD2 80 to help Elektra defend Daredevil could be a separate Hand created by Siri-Elektra. They certainly seem strangely willing to help the Hand's old enemy DD.

But I'm not going to push it.


So my suggestion for changes is actually:-

Current position:-

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS
....
W3 27 (1 - 13&14:1)
IRRANT 2-FB
W3 27 (13&14:2 - 23)
W3 29 }
W3 30 } delete
W3 31 }
MA 16-FB
SECINV 8-FB
A:I 19
....

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER/SIRI
NA 40
MA 16-FB move to before NA 40

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER II/PAGON
MA 16-FB
{NA 1}
....

Changed to:-

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS
....
W3 27 (1 - 13&14:1)
IRRANT 2-FB
W3 27 (13&14:2 - 23)
MA 16-FB
SECINV 8-FB
A:I 19
....

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER/SIRI
MA 16-FB moved from after NA 40
W3 29 }
W3 30 } inserted
W3 31 }
NA 40

ELEKTRA IMPOSTER II/PAGON no changes because you're not specifying pages in MA 16
MA 16-FB
{NA 1}
.....

robfj
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Re: Rehabilitating Siri

Post by robfj » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:53 am

While refining the details of Veranke's history I realised that my proposed change had a knock-on effect that seemed a problem. But on closer inspection I discovered that it pointed to an existing discrepancy between the sequences for Jessica Drew + Veranke and Nick Fury.

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
....
A 501
A 502
A 503
CA4 30
....
SSM2 20
SECWAR:FNF (40 - 41)-FB-VO
HRC3 1-FB
M/TU3 5-BTS
M/TU3 6
C&DP 7
C&DP 8
C&DP 9
C&DP 10
C&DP 11
C&DP 12 (21:4 - 22)
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
W:DOD
ASTONX3 3
....
W3 28-BTS
W3 29
W3 30
W3 31
W4 14-FB
....

SPIDER-WOMAN/JESSICA DREW
....
WM3 5-FB
GSSW
NA 14 (9:3 - 12:6)-FB
NA 42 (3)
NA 14 (13:1 - 13:2)-FB
NA 14 (13:4)-FB
NA 14 (13:6)-FB
....

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
NA 42 (3 - 7)
NA 43-FB
NA 14 (14)-FB
HRC3 1-FB
NA 14 (15:2 - 15:5)-FB
....

My problem was with HRC3 1-FB where Herc interrupts the post-Disassembled funerals in Hercules (2005) #1. (I was initially confused by the fact that this is listed as HRC3 1-FB in the sequences but the issue search system knows it as HERCULES 1-FB - but I got over it.) Note that NF has HRC3 1-FB before NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB while the SW pair has it after NA 14 (9:3 - 12:6)-FB

I recommend that we change the Spider-Women's sequences to bring them into line with Fury's. I could just say that it's easier than messing with Nick's timeline. Particularly I wouldn't want to move HRC3 1-FB later and put the funerals even further away from Avengers Disassembled itself. But actually I have an ulterior motive for changing the SW's instead to have HRC3 1-FB before all the NA 14 FB's, which brings me to the problem I spotted 1st.

Jessica Drew's NA 14 FB's are where Hydra repowered her (and Veranke replaced her). From V's point of view this is after the NA 40 FB where Siri reported to her (and she chose SW as her target). Initially there was no problem with this happening before HRC3 1-FB, or even before Disassembled.

But it's awkward for my Siri proposal. I need the NA 40 FB to be preceded by W3 29-31. But all relevant sequences have that after Disassembled and/or HRC3 1-FB. Fury's sequence plainly has both (A 501-503). So I need the NA 14 FB's to occur after HRC 1-FB so that they have a chance to also be later than W3 29-31.

Where to move HRC3 1-FB to? It has to go before GSSW because that leads straight into the NA 14 stuff. It must be after WM3 5-FB because that is before Disassembled (eg Thor is there).

I think I'm only left with explaining why Jessica is in costume at the funeral when she hasn't got her powers back yet. Obviously it's because it's a superhero funeral. And anyway she also wears her costume in her cameo at the superhero party in WM3 5-FB.

So the recommended change is:-

Current position:-

SPIDER-WOMAN/JESSICA DREW
....
WM3 5-FB
GSSW
NA 14 (9:3 - 12:6)-FB
NA 42 (3)
NA 14 (13:1 - 13:2)-FB
NA 14 (13:4)-FB
NA 14 (13:6)-FB
....

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
NA 42 (3 - 7)
NA 43-FB
NA 14 (14)-FB
HRC3 1-FB move to SPIDER-WOMAN/JESSICA DREW
NA 14 (15:2 - 15:5)-FB
....

Changed to:-

SPIDER-WOMAN/JESSICA DREW
....
WM3 5-FB
HRC3 1-FB moved from SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
GSSW
NA 14 (9:3 - 12:6)-FB
NA 42 (3)
NA 14 (13:1 - 13:2)-FB
NA 14 (13:4)-FB
NA 14 (13:6)-FB
....

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
NA 42 (3 - 7)
NA 43-FB
NA 14 (14)-FB
NA 14 (15:2 - 15:5)-FB
....

But I would like to make it clear that the NF/SW clash is still there without my Siri changes, and moving HRC3 1-FB back to Jessica's part is still the simplest solution even if you don't accept my Siri proposal.


However the eagle-eyed may have spotted an other connected problem in Nick Fury's timeline. NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB is before W3 29-31, and that is exactly what my Siri idea doesn't want. So my next proposal *is* only necessary if you accept my Siri stuff.

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
....
C&DP 11
C&DP 12 (21:4 - 22)
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
W:DOD
ASTONX3 3
....
W3 28-BTS
W3 29
W3 30
W3 31
W4 14-FB
NFHC 1
AFSY2 10
TWELVE 12
IM:HYPER 2
NA 14 (15:2)-FB
NA 14 (15:4)-FB
SECWAR 1 (4 - 7:3)
PULSE 6 (10:3 - 10:5)-FB
SECWAR 1 (7:4 - 24)
SECWAR 2

I need to move NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB to after W3 29-31. I have to keep it before Secret War and before NA 14 (15:2)-FB and NA 14 (15:4)-FB where Nick liaises with his double-agent Spider-Woman. That leaves me with the range:-
W4 14-FB
NFHC 1
AFSY2 10
TWELVE 12
IM:HYPER 2

I can't find anything which would preclude me from picking any position in there. I need to allow room for the NA 40-FB so I'll choose the latter half, after AFSY2 10.

Current position:-

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
....
C&DP 11
C&DP 12 (21:4 - 22)
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB move to after AFSY2 10
W:DOD
ASTONX3 3
....
W3 31
W4 14-FB
NFHC 1
AFSY2 10
TWELVE 12
IM:HYPER 2
NA 14 (15:2)-FB
....

Changed to:-

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
....
C&DP 11
C&DP 12 (21:4 - 22)
W:DOD
ASTONX3 3
....
W3 31
W4 14-FB
NFHC 1
AFSY2 10
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB moved from before W:DOD
TWELVE 12
IM:HYPER 2
NA 14 (15:2)-FB
....

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