HOMSkrulls

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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robfj
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HOMSkrulls

Post by robfj » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:50 pm

While working through the Skrulls' build-up towards Secret Invasion I fell into the can of worms that is House of M. I think I can make some minor suggestions that are outside the old debate about what the HOM world actually is and what events outside the HOM series itself can be listed in MCP.


1st off consider this bit of Veranke/Spider-Woman's sequence:-
NA:MWF-BTS
NA 42 (19 - 22)
HOM 1
W3 35 (1)-FB

I'm pretty sure she's not in HOM 1. I've checked several times, and Marvel Wiki, ComicBookDB and Grand Comics Database all agree with me. (Mind you they're not all impeccable sources as they don't agree with each other on which later issues she's in. GCD and yourselves get it right.)

NA 42 (19 - 22) explains why she's not with her fellow New Avengers. She was being grilled by Maria Hill at the time. Criti Noll/Yellowjacket contacts her to tell her what's happening and she gets to Genosha just as reality changes.


Next we have this part:-
W3 35 (1)-FB
NA 45 (1 - 12)
HOM 2
HOM 3

Veranke's appearance in NA 45 (1 - 12) should really be split across her HOM 2 app (p19-22). She's not actually in NA 45 (7 - 9). In NA 45 (1 - 6) she's sent to find Wolverine. In HOM 2 (19 - 22) she finds him before he jumps ship in HOM 3. NA 45 (10 - 12) has to be set after this because V tells Criti Noll/Henry Pym her squad is being sent to fetch W back.

There was a discussion about this point in thread 'SI: Annihilation of the House of Macaroons [NAv #45 SPOILERS' between cweed4 and Paul Bourcier. (They seem to me to actually be talking about different things. Paul is arguing for a gap between NA 45 p12 and p13 [the raid on Genosha] while cweed4 is worried about the absence of the gap between V's apps that I propose in my preceding paragraph. I think they're both right.)

My timeline for this whole section would be:-
NA 45 (1 - 6) V/SW knows reality has changed. She's sent to find her Red Guard squad leader Wolverine.
HOM 2 (15 - 17) ~ NA 45 (7 - 9) CN/HP also knows. He's illegally investigating the mutant gene.
HOM 2 (19 - 22) V/SW finds W who also knows reality has changed.
HOM 3 (1-11[incl 3 Pulse pages]) W leaves the helicarrier to explore the new world.
W3 33 Sebastian Shaw tries to understand why W has gone.
W3 34 Mystique tells Shaw about W's past with Nick Fury, who's supposedly dead.
W3 35(2 - 3) Shaw doesn't believe NF is involved, and puts Mystique in jail.
HOM 3 (12 - 15) W finds Westchester Mansion not owned by Prof X.
W3 35 (4 - 23) After investigating, Shaw gets Mystique to confess she impersonated NF. They think W has gone after NF. Shaw sends her as part of W's squad to bring him back.
NA 45 (10 - 12) V/SW and CN/HP compare notes. V says she's been sent to hunt W.
HOM 3 (16 - 17) W goes to Stark Tower.
HOM 3 (18 - 23) Spider-Woman, Mystique and the rest of Red Guard try to bring W in. Cloak and Hawkeye rescue him and take him to Luke Cage's Avengers.
....
HOM 7 (1 - 2) ~ NA 45 (13 - 14) Battle scene in Genosha. HOM shows V/SW somewhat separate from the main fight. NA doesn't include her (because she flies off after Wanda in p15).

Actually it could be argued that NA 45 (10 - 12) occurs later after the Red Guard's 1st attempt to catch W in HOM 3 (18 - 23), because in NA 45 p12 Veranke says 'they sent us to hunt him'. I'm interpreting it here as 'they've sent us but we haven't started yet', but I'm not committed to the idea. It would be more difficult to put it after the Red Guard find Wolverine with the Avengers in HOM 5 (15 - 20) because the RG then get enlightened and the whole group plan their assault on Genosha. V would have less chance to slip away then, and I don't think her dialogue about Genosha in NA 45 p12 makes as much sense if she already knows she's part of a plan to go there.


I'll now turn to Criti Noll's point of view:-
HOM 1 (1 - 17)
NA 42 (19 - 22)
HOM 1 (18 - 23)
HOM 2
NA 45
PULSE:HOM /8-BTS
SECHOM /2-VO
IM:HOM 1
IM:HOM 2
IM:HOM 3
HOM 8-VO

CN's presence in HOM 2 is his chat with Beast in p15-17. This is duplicated in NA 45 p7-9, which as per standard you don't mention. What follows is p10-12 of NA 45, his meeting with Veranke. The fact that my timeline above separates these 2 things (which NA 45 makes seem continuous) is hidden in CN's simpler sequence. The separation is necessary unless we want to move HOM 2 (15 - 17) to after other bits of HOM 2.

But CN's NA 45 entry still needs splitting because he's also in the post-HOM Skrull meeting in p20-23. Following the example of V whose late-placed NA 45 with no page-range must refer to this meeting, I'd reserve CN's NA 45 for that meeting and give the current entry the page range NA 45 (10 - 12) (lining up with V's split entry).

I note with approval that CN's involvement in IM:HOM has been placed after his chat with Beast in HOM 2, because in HOM 2 he's worried about Tony Stark finding out about his illegal investigation of the mutant gene and in IM:HOM 1 Stark *has* found out. This was another reason I wanted to keep CN's meet with V as early as possible so it didn't interfere with IM:HOM. If you want to push the CN/V meeting later in time in might have to go within IM:HOM.


The placing of NA 45 p20-23 as the Skrulls on Earth react to HOM, Decimation and Annihilation was the main purpose of thread 'SI: Annihilation of the House of Macaroons [NAv #45 SPOILERS'. Paul's Calendar had Annihilation basically overlapping Civil War. NA 45 refers to Annihilation Day plus 15, which if it's to be believed corresponds to the end of Annihilation: Prologue. Paul promised to consider expanding Ann and moving the beginning back in time.

I think I detect signs of that happening.

Skrull Jarvis's just has an overall NA 45 entry here:-
HOM 8
NA 45
NA 11

His only appearance in NA 45 is the p20-23 Skrull gathering so this must be it. But it's before NA 11, well before the Calendar's placement of Annihilation Day plus 15.

Similarly Pagon/Elektra's
{NA 1}
NA 45
DD2 77
puts the meeting before DD2 77, again sometime before the Calendar's Annihilation Day plus 15.

The Contessa Skrull's timeline
NA 41-FB
NA 45
MA 14-FB
is at least consistent because the NA 41-FB is within NA 6. But Veranke and Criti Noll's FB entries for MA 14 (10-12)-FB, which is what Contessa's MA 14-FB corresponds to, are so far ahead that they would allow NA 45 at the Calendar position of Annihilation Day plus 15 as well.

I already mentioned that Criti Noll's NA 45 entry needs splitting, so his meeting line can be put immediately after HOM like the others.

Veranke's timeline is the only 1 that causes a problem. She doesn't actually have an NA 45 without page range in her sequence, and her quoted page ranges don't include p20-23. However in the NA 45 page she *is* listed in the main section but with [NA 45] indicating a provisional(?) entry, and p20-23 is the only V app left unclaimed within NA 45. It is placed between IM4 8 and IM4 10-FB, which in V's sequence are just before the start of Civil War. And the Calendar has IM4 #8 on Annihilation Day plus 15.

So this is the lone exponent of the unamended Annihilation dating. The 2 positions for the p20-23 Skrull meeting need to be merged. Majority rule (well, only 2-1 really) (and my preference) suggest Veranke's [NA 45] should be firmed up and put after HOM. (But V's the Empress so she may demand her subjects move to *her*.)


The changes to the Skrull sequences for all this are:-

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
current:-
....
M/KSM 18
NA:MWF-BTS
NA 42 (19 - 22)
HOM 1 delete this
W3 35 (1)-FB
NA 45 (1 - 12) reduce to p1-6 and add p10-12 after HOM 2
HOM 2
HOM 3
PULSE 10
HOM 5
HOM 6
HOM 7
NA 45 (15 - 19)
HOM 8 add NA 45 after this
RUN2 9
RUN2 10-BTS
....

changed to:-
....
M/KSM 18
NA:MWF-BTS
NA 42 (19 - 22) HOM 1 gone from after this
W3 35 (1)-FB
NA 45 (1 - 6) reduced from (1 - 12)
HOM 2
NA 45 (10 - 12) added
HOM 3
PULSE 10
HOM 5
HOM 6
HOM 7
NA 45 (15 - 19)
HOM 8
NA 45 added (instead of the unlisted [NA 45])
RUN2 9
RUN2 10-BTS
....

YELLOWJACKET IMPOSTER/CRITI NOLL
current:-
....
HOM 1 (1 - 17)
NA 42 (19 - 22)
HOM 1 (18 - 23)
HOM 2
NA 45 make this NA 45 (10 - 12)
PULSE:HOM /8-BTS
SECHOM /2-VO
IM:HOM 1
IM:HOM 2
IM:HOM 3
HOM 8-VO add NA 45 after this
M/HOL 2005/2
BEYOND 1
....

changed to:-
....
HOM 1 (1 - 17)
NA 42 (19 - 22)
HOM 1 (18 - 23)
HOM 2
NA 45 (10 - 12) page range added
PULSE:HOM /8-BTS
SECHOM /2-VO
IM:HOM 1
IM:HOM 2
IM:HOM 3
HOM 8-VO
NA 45 added
M/HOL 2005/2
BEYOND 1
....

Pagon/Elektra, Skrull Jarvis and the Contessas are unchanged.

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Russ Chappell
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Re: HOMSkrulls

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:19 pm

Where you are asking to add "NA 45" to the chronologies, do you mean "NA 45 (20 - 23)"?

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Re: HOMSkrulls

Post by robfj » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:46 pm

Yes I do mean p20-23, but I was following the line taken for Veranke where her NA 45 entry refers to those pages without specifying page numbers. Ie I believe that you are considering p20-23 as the current time from which all the other pages are flashbacks. I personally don't care whether the new entries are written NA 45 or NA 45 (20 - 23).

Actually I do care because I would find it easier to decipher the issue pages if any page that contains some specified page ranges had page ranges specified for *all* entries. Then the chars that appeared in each page range would be all grouped together. But I know this is contrary to your policy - page ranges are only added where necessary - where appearances of a character in an issue need to have appearances elsewhere inserted between them . And even then the non-flashback parts of an issue are considered separately from flashback parts - ie there are issues with 1 current part and 1 flashback part and neither are given page numbers. So I try to follow the rules.

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Re: HOMSkrulls

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:49 am

robfj wrote:Actually I do care because I would find it easier to decipher the issue pages if any page that contains some specified page ranges had page ranges specified for *all* entries. Then the chars that appeared in each page range would be all grouped together.
Keep in mind that the search page is just a handy feature for the chronologies. The chronologies themselves are what the site is all about, and that has to be our prime concern. Here's what would happen, if we did it the way you wanted.

Let's say we have an issue with only two characters, Captain America and Iron Man. Captain America's appearances are split into 6 different sections, due to appearances in another book:

CAPTAIN AMERICA
A:ATW 3
CA&IM 1 (1 - 2)
CAFTW (1 - 5)
CA&IM 1 (3 - 4)
CAFTW (6 - 10)
CA&IM 1 (5 - 6)
CAFTW (11 - 15)
CA&IM 1 (7 - 8)
CAFTW (16 - 20)
CA&IM 1 (9 - 10)
CAFTW (21 - 25)
CA&IM 1 (11 - 22)
A:ATW 4

Meanwhile, Iron Man doesn't appear in any other books during the course of CA&IM 1. In order to get Iron Man's appearances grouped together with Captain America's appearances on the search page, we would have to list Iron Man like so:

IRON MAN
A:ATW 3
CA&IM 1 (1 - 2)
CA&IM 1 (3 - 4)
CA&IM 1 (5 - 6)
CA&IM 1 (7 - 8)
CA&IM 1 (9 - 10)
CA&IM 1 (11 - 22)
A:ATW 4

which just looks...junky. Any benefits that would be gained on the search page are outweighed by the clunkiness of the main pages. I don't think it's worth it.

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Re: HOMSkrulls

Post by robfj » Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:00 am

You're absolutely right. I'm sorry I sounded off, I think I was a bit tired.

I also miswrote about NA 45. It's not a set of flashbacks to a current page 20-23, it's treated as a narrative of consecutive scenes. So the last entries for Veranke and Criti Noll should be NA 45 (20-23).

The only characters with pure NA 45 entries will then be those who only appear in 1 scene, or maybe who don't appear anywhere else in between their scenes.

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