Hulk Smash Avengers #2

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robfj
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Posts: 118
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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:36 pm

The next thing is to check the timelines of the other Avengers and Defenders, and any other characters that appear in the moved Cap and Hulk apps.

This post will cover the Avengers:-

BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY
current:-
....
DD 156
DD 157
CA 228 move to before HSMASHA 2
CA 229 move to after HSMASHA 2
M/TU 90
A 179 (1 - 13:6)
A 180-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
CA 237 move to before A 186
IM 114
IM 115
[CHAOS:DA 3 (21:3)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
HSMASHA 2
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
M/TIO 51
X 125
IM 125
X 134
X 135
X 136
X 137
BICM/W 1/2
X 138
FF 286-FB
A 186
A 187
....
changed to:-
....
DD 156
DD 157
M/TU 90
A 179 (1 - 13:6)
A 180-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
IM 114
IM 115
[CHAOS:DA 3 (21:3)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
CA 228 moved from after DD 157
HSMASHA 2
CA 229 moved from before M/TU 90
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
M/TIO 51
X 125
IM 125
X 134
X 135
X 136
X 137
BICM/W 1/2
X 138
FF 286-FB
CA 237 moved from after A 180
A 186
A 187
....


IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
current:-
....
T 271
M/PRM 47-FB
CA 218 move to after GZILL 24
IM 113 (1 - 8)
M/TU 72
MSM 22-BTS
A@ 8
SW 4-BTS
DEF 63
FF 202
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
CA 228 move to after BP 14
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
HC 1/3-FB
HC 1/3
DS2 35
IM 113 (9 - 17)
IM 114
IM 115
IM 116
IM@ 11/4
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB } before GSA2 1/2
A 183
M/CP 160/4-OP
A 184
....
changed to:-
....
T 271
M/PRM 47-FB
IM 113 (1 - 8)
M/TU 72
MSM 22-BTS
A@ 8
SW 4-BTS
DEF 63
FF 202
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
CA 218 moved from after M/PRM 47-FB
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
HC 1/3-FB
HC 1/3
DS2 35
IM 113 (9 - 17)
IM 114
IM 115
IM 116
IM@ 11/4
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB } before A 183
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
CA 228 moved from after GZILL 24
HSMASHA 2
A 183
M/CP 160/4-OP
A 184
....


MS. MARVEL/CAROL SUSAN JANE DANVERS
current:-
....
DEF 63
MSM2 35-FB
CA 237 move to before A 186
A 181
MSM 23 (1 - 7:5)
MSM 23-FB
MSM 23 (7:6 - 17:6)
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB } before A 181
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
M/TIO 51
M/S-H3 10/3
M/S-H3 11/3 (1 - 5:2)
FF@ 14
IM 125
A 186
A 187
....
changed to:-
....
DEF 63
MSM2 35-FB
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB } before A 183
A 181
MSM 23 (1 - 7:5)
MSM 23-FB
MSM 23 (7:6 - 17:6)
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
M/TIO 51
M/S-H3 10/3
M/S-H3 11/3 (1 - 5:2)
FF@ 14
IM 125
CA 237 moved from before A 181
A 186
A 187
....


SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
current:-
....
M/FAN 14
GZILL 23
CA 228 move to after BP 14
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
AFT 1
IM 114
IM 115
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB-BTS } before GSA2 1/2
A 183
A 185
....
changed to:-
....
M/FAN 14
GZILL 23
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
AFT 1
IM 114
IM 115
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB-BTS } before A 183
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
CA 228 moved from after GZILL 23
HSMASHA 2
A 183
A 185
....


VISION II/"VICTOR SHADE"
current:-
....
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
CA 228 move to after BP 15
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
CA 237 move to before A 186
IM 114
IM 115
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB } before GSA2 1/2
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
FF 215
FF@ 14
IM 125
A 186
A 188
....
changed to:-
....
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
IM 114
IM 115
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26 (2 - 4)-FB } before A 183
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
CA 228 moved from after GZILL 24
HSMASHA 2
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
FF 215
FF@ 14
IM 125
CA 237 moved from after A 180
A 186
A 188
....


WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
current:-
....
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
CA 237 move to before A 186
IM 115
BW 1-FB
A 181
A 182
HSMASHA 2
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
IM 125
A 186
A 187
....
changed to:-
....
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
IM 115
BW 1-FB
A 181
A 182
HSMASHA 2
A 183
M/CP 160/4
A 184
A 185
IM 125
CA 237 moved from after A 180
A 186
A 187
....


Then there's

JARVIS, EDWIN
current:-
....
A 176-BTS
A 280 (18:5 - 18:6)-FB
CA 218 } move to
CA 220 } after DD 156
CA 222 move to before FF 204
A@ 8
A 201/2
M/TIO@ 3
M/FAN 14
A 178
DD 156
CA 229 move to before A 184
M/TIO@ 4
A 179
A 180-BTS
FF 204
GSA2 1/2
A 181
HSMASHA 2
A 184
A 185
....
changed to:-
....
A 176-BTS
A 280 (18:5 - 18:6)-FB
A@ 8
A 201/2
M/TIO@ 3
M/FAN 14
A 178
DD 156
CA 218 } moved from
CA 220 } after A 280 (18:5 - 18:6)-FB
M/TIO@ 4
A 179
A 180-BTS
CA 222 moved from before A@ 8
FF 204
GSA2 1/2
A 181
HSMASHA 2
CA 229 moved from after DD 156
A 184
A 185
....


Plus there are heroes hanging around:-

HERCULES/HERACLES/ALCEAUS [OLYMPIAN]
current:-
....
DD 156
DD 157
CA 228
CA 229
A 181 move to before CA 228
M/TE 24/5
T 289
....
changed to:-
....
DD 156
DD 157
A 181 moved from after CA 229
CA 228
CA 229
M/TE 24/5
T 289


THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
current:-
....
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
CA 228 } move to
CA 229 } after A 182
A 179 (1 - 13:6)
A 180-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
T 280
T 281
T 282
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26-FB } before GSA2 1/2
T 283 (1 - 17:4)
T 284 (2:2 - 3:2)
....
changed to:-
....
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
A 179 (1 - 13:6)
A 180-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
T 280
T 281
T 282
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26-FB } after A 182
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:2)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
CA 228 } moved from
CA 229 } after GZILL 24
T 283 (1 - 17:4)
T 284 (2:2 - 3:2)
....


Hawkeye, Jocasta, Wonder Man and Yellowjacket are not in any of the moved issues.



The next post will cover the effect on other major heroes.

robfj
Big Bad
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Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:50 am
Location: England

Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:18 pm

Continuing with more heroes.



1st the Defenders. We've already dealt with Dr Strange and Hulk. The others (I include Clea, Hellcat, Nighthawk, Silver Surfer, Sub-Mariner and Valkyrie) have no changes to their timelines, mainly because the ALIAS FBs haven't been moved very far.



Next I considered the early career of Marvel Man/Quasar:-

current:-
MARVEL BOY IV/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
....
{CA 217}
MARVEL MAN/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
CA 218
Q 2 (2:6)-FB
DEF 62 }
DEF 63 } move to
DEF 64 } before CA 218
CA 228
CA 229
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2 (2:7)-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
Q 1 (23:3)
IH2 234
M/TIO 53
M/TIO 74
....
changed to:-
MARVEL BOY IV/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
....
{CA 217}
MARVEL MAN/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
DEF 62 }
DEF 63 } moved from
DEF 64 } before CA 228
CA 218
Q 2 (2:6)-FB
CA 228
CA 229
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2 (2:7)-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
QUASAR III/WENDELL ELVIS VAUGHAN
Q 1 (23:3)
IH2 234
M/TIO 53
....

The only actual change is moving DEF 62-64 (as also happened with Falcon).

The move of the CA/IH2 block doesn't affect this timeline because M/TIO 53 is far enough in the future. But the included move of Q 1 (23:3) *does* affect a couple of SHIELD Agents as we'll see next.

Note that Marvel Man becomes Quasar in Q 1 (23:3) and then IH2 234. This justifies the placement of DEF 62-64 (as Marvel Man) within his tenure as a Super-Agent of SHIELD because he's Marvel Man there from after CA 217 to the breakup of the team in the CA/IH2 block. This is true in the current chronology as well as my amended version.



Now to those Agents of SHIELD.

Nick Fury, Dum Dum Dugan and Clay Quartermain need changes:-

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
current:-
....
FF 197
CA 217
CA 218 move to before SW 7
SW 1-BTS
M/TU 71
CA 222 }
CA 223 }
CA 225 } move to
CA 226 } after M/TIO@ 4
CA 227-FB }
CA 227 }
M/TIO 42-BTS
CA 228-BTS }
CA 229-BTS } move to
Q 1 (23:3) } after MICRO 13
SW 7
HC 1/3
....
HC 19/3
M/TIO@ 4
CA 237 } move to
CA 238-FB } before IM 129
MICRO 12
MICRO 13
ALIAS 26 (6 - 12)-FB move to before MICRO 12
M/TIO 51
IM 117
IM 118
IM 119 (1 - 13:4)
IM 120-FB
IM 119 (13:5 - 17:7)
IM 129
CA 247
....
changed to:-
....
FF 197
CA 217
SW 1-BTS
M/TU 71
M/TIO 42-BTS
CA 218 moved from after CA 217
SW 7
HC 1/3
....
HC 19/3
M/TIO@ 4
CA 222 }
CA 223 }
CA 225 } moved from
CA 226 } after M/TU 71
CA 227-FB }
CA 227 }
ALIAS 26 (6 - 12)-FB moved from after MICRO 13
MICRO 12
MICRO 13
CA 228-BTS }
CA 229-BTS } moved from
Q 1 (23:3) } before SW 7
M/TIO 51
IM 117
IM 118
IM 119 (1 - 13:4)
IM 120-FB
IM 119 (13:5 - 17:7)
CA 237 } moved from
CA 238-FB } before MICRO 12
IM 129
CA 247
....


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"
current (ASM 187 already moved):-
....
CA 217
M/TU 71
CA 222 }
CA 225 } move to
CA 226 } after HC 17/3
CA 227-FB }
GZILL 17
....
GZILL 24
Q 1 (23:3) move to before FF 214
HC 1/3
....
HC 17/3
ASM 187
MICRO 12
FF 214
M/TIO 51
....
changed to:-
....
CA 217
M/TU 71
GZILL 17
....
GZILL 24
HC 1/3
....
HC 17/3
CA 222 }
CA 225 } moved from
CA 226 } after M/TU 71
CA 227-FB }
ASM 187
MICRO 12
Q 1 (23:3) moved from after GZILL 24
FF 214
M/TIO 51
....


QUARTERMAIN, CLAY
current:-
....
IH2 227
IH2 228
IH2 230
IH2 231
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 237
IH2 238
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 243
ALIAS 26-FB moved to before IH2 230
M/TU 83
M/TU 84
....
changed to:-
IH2 227
IH2 228
ALIAS 26-FB moved from after IH2 243
IH2 230
IH2 231
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 237
IH2 238
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 243
M/TU 83
M/TU 84
....


Jasper Sitwell was tampered with, but nothing that changed his sequence. Sharon Carter only appeared in CA issues and so her chronology remains the same.



Next up is Daredevil and his cast.

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
current:-
....
DD 156
DD 157 (1 - 6)
CA 234 }
CA 235 } move to
CA 236 } before A 190
PPSSM 26
PPSSM 27
PPSSM 28
DD 157 (7 - 17)
DD 158
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
A 190
A 191
....
changed to:-
....
DD 156
DD 157 (1 - 6)
PPSSM 26
PPSSM 27
PPSSM 28
DD 157 (7 - 17)
DD 158
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
CA 234 }
CA 235 } moved from
CA 236 } before PPSSM 26
A 190
A 191
....

DD 157 isn't split in 2 because of CA 234-236. It is split because the DD 157-158 story has to occur after IM 116, but the Avengery apps in the DD 155-157 arc are placed much earlier than that. CA 234-236 doesn't refer to DD 157 so it can be moved without harm.
The ALIAS FB of course moves, but not far enough to affect this chronology.


NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"
current:-
....
M/TIO 38
DD 155
CA 234 move to after DD 158
DD 157
DD 158
DD 159
DD 160
....
changed to:-
....
M/TIO 38
DD 155
DD 157
DD 158
CA 234 moved from before DD 157
DD 159
DD 160
....


BLAKE, BECKY
current:-
DD 155
DD 156
CA 234 move to after DD 158
DD 157
DD 158
DD 160
DD 165
....
changed to:-
DD 155
DD 156
DD 157
DD 158
CA 234 moved from before DD 157
DD 160
DD 165
....


DD's current girlfriend Heather Glenn isn't affected. Neither is Black Widow who is in most of these DD issues.



Spider-Man does get caught out:-

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
current
....
M/TU 88
M/TU 89
CA 237 move to after X 135
M/TU 91
PPSSM 25
....
ASM 200
FF@ 14
X 135
PPSSM 35
PPSSM 36
....
changed to:-
....
M/TU 88
M/TU 89
M/TU 91
PPSSM 25
....
ASM 200
FF@ 14
X 135
CA 237 moved from before M/TU 91
PPSSM 35
PPSSM 36
....

But his cast members like J Jonah Jameson get away without a scratch.



The Fantastic Four members are in lots of issues that cropped up in my spreadsheet, but none of their timelines are affected by my meddling. Except ...

IH2 235-237 includes Machine Man and his cast, and MM 10 follows on directly (and his preceding issues involved the Corporation that was bedevilling Hulk and Captain America at this time). But MM 15 guest stars the FF. This was OK until I moved the Hulk issues. Now MM 10 ff must occur later too.

MM 15 only contains a generic app by the FF, and contains no clues as to where it goes. I have chosen to put it after X 135. No other chronology links in MM issues are affected because they all refer to things far enough away.

THING II/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
current:-
....
M/TIO 50
M/TIO@ 4
MM 15 move to after X 135
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF@ 14
M/TIO 60
X 135
M/TIO 61
M/TIO 62 (1 - 16)
....
changed to:-
....
M/TIO 50
M/TIO@ 4
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF@ 14
M/TIO 60
X 135
MM 15 moved from before FF 204
M/TIO 61
M/TIO 62 (1 - 16)
....


MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
current:-
....
M/TIO 50
M/TU@ 2
MM 15 move to after X 135
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF@ 14
M/TIO 60
X 135
M/TIO 63-BTS
FF 215
....
changed to:-
....
M/TIO 50
M/TU@ 2
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF@ 14
M/TIO 60
X 135
MM 15 moved from before FF 204
M/TIO 63-BTS
FF 215
....


INVISIBLE WOMAN/SUE STORM RICHARDS
current:-
....
M/TU@ 2
M/TU 88
MM 15 move to after FF@ 14
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF 216
FF@ 14
NO4 35
M/TIO 69
....
changed to:-
....
M/TU@ 2
M/TU 88
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF 216
FF@ 14
MM 15 moved from before FF 204
NO4 35
M/TIO 69
....


HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM
current:-
....
M/TIO 46 (17)
M/TIO 47
MM 15 move to after FF@ 14
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF 216
FF@ 14
M/TIO 68
M/TIO 69
....
changed to:-
....
M/TIO 46 (17)
M/TIO 47
FF 204
FF 205
....
FF 216
FF@ 14
MM 15 moved from before FF 204
M/TIO 68
M/TIO 69
....



The next post is a surprise special about Moon Knight.

robfj
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Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:50 am
Location: England

Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:13 pm

This is a Moon Knight special.

While checking MK's chronology for problems in my new layout I discovered an existing discrepancy.

MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY"
....
PPSSM 22
PPSSM 23
M/TIO 52
HMAG 11/2
HMAG 12/2
HMAG 13/2
HMAG 14/2
HMAG 15/2 ~ HMAG 15/3
HMAG 17/2
HMAG 18/2
HMAG 20/2
CA 245
MSMK 49-FB
....

The positions of M/TIO 52 and HMAG 15/2~3 cause a clash.

Hulk has HMAG 15/2~3 before HSMASHA 2.
Cap, Beast, Iron Man, Jarvis, Scarlet Witch, Vision and Wasp have HSMASHA 2 before A 183-185.
Beast, Jarvis and Ms Marvel have A 183-185 before M/TIO 51.
Thing has M/TIO 51 before M/TIO 52.

To make the existing chronology sound something has to give. The link between HSMASHA 2 and A 183-185 has lots of supporters, and that between A 183-185 and M/TIO 51 is quite solid. We shouldn't destroy the natural sequence of a series, even M/TIO, without good reason. So the weak link is HMAG 15/2~3.

We could resolve the problem by moving HMAG 15/2~3 after M/TIO 52. Again we shouldn't mess with a series order unnecessarily, and the 'H2 243 and DEF 67-68' thread argued persuasively that HMAG 15-18 should be together. So we would move that whole set after M/TIO 52 (passing over some other Hulk apps).

Alternatively we could just move MK's app in M/TIO 52 to after his apps in HMAG 15/2~3. His HMAG stories naturally split apart into 11/2-14/2, 15/2~15/3 and 17/2-20/2(missing out 19/2).

This is the easiest solution and guaranteed not to cause any continuity problems (the only timelines affected are those for MK and Frenchie, and M/TIO 52 and the HMAGs don't refer to each other). The result is:-

MOON KNIGHT/MARC SPECTOR/"STEVEN GRANT"/"JAKE LOCKLEY"
changed to:-
....
PPSSM 22
PPSSM 23
HMAG 11/2
HMAG 12/2
HMAG 13/2
HMAG 14/2
HMAG 15/2 ~ HMAG 15/3
M/TIO 52 moved from after PPSSM 23
HMAG 17/2
HMAG 18/2
HMAG 20/2
CA 245
MSMK 49-FB
....

This is the solution if you don't accept my plan to move Cap and Hulk issues to HSMASHA 2.

It turns out that if you do implement my changes around HSMASHA 2 then you can leave MK's M/TIO 52 where it was. Moving the Hulk issues will drag HMAG 15/2 ~ HMAG 15/3 with them and put them in a place suitable for the original MK chronology to work!



Next post is for incidental characters.

robfj
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Posts: 118
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Location: England

Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:54 am

Side-characters come in 2 general flavours:- supporting chars and visiting villains.


The supporting chars usually stay in their home series and so the moves of CA and IH2 issues won't have troubled the ones from there. I've covered some others already like some from Daredevil. But I nearly forgot the change to Senator Hawk in Hulk.

HAWK, ANDREW JACKSON
current:-
IM 95
IM 96
IM 97
IM 99
IM 100
IH2 231 }
IH2 233 }
IH2 234 } move to
IH2 238 }
IH2 239 }
IH2 240 }
HSMASHA 2
changed to:-
IM 95
IM 96
IM 97
IM 99
IM 100
HSMASHA 2
IH2 231 }
IH2 233 }
IH2 234 } moved from
IH2 238 }
IH2 239 }
IH2 240 }

In the current chronology Hawk turns up in HSMASHA 2 some time after he's stopped actually annoying Gamma Base. By the end of his run he'd turned out to really be a good guy, and the only result of his committee seems to be bringing Glenn Talbot back to run the Base.

In my new version he appears in HSMASHA before he actually arrives on Gamma Base. But at least he's painted as a bad guy in both places. And his committee could have been investigating the Base's activities from Washington before coming to see it 1st-hand.



There are only 2 villains in issues that I've moved that I've found any problems with. The others only had long-range connections that were unaffected.


MORGAN
....
PM&IF 52
CA 232
CA 233
M/TU 88
P 2
....

In the current chronology CA 232-233 and M/TU 88 are very close together. (Spider-Man has M/TU 86-89 immediately before CA 237 [p1-4], and Cap only has DS2 35 between CA 232-236 and CA 237 (1 - 4).) My move takes CA 232-233 to beyond HSMASHA 2, and Spidey has a lot of stuff between M/TU 88 and that region, as do other people. So in my new layout M/TU 88 *has* to come before CA 232-233.

Is there a problem? In CA 232 Morgan says he's sick of being leant on by heroes, and an editorial comment refers us to PM&IF 52. But in M/TU 88 Invisible Woman doesn't lean on him, she steals his money. So even with M/TU 88 before CA 232 the last time Morgan was leant on was still PM&IF 52.

Another possible problem is that Morgan gets arrested at the end of M/TU 88, but in my scenario he's still free in CA 232. However in current continuity he's also still free in P 2. So he's probably just got a very good lawyer - or very big bribes.

So I have no hesitation in proposing:-

MORGAN
changed to:-
....
PM&IF 52
M/TU 88 moved from before P 2
CA 232
CA 233
P 2
....



TINKERER/PHINEAS MASON
....
ASM 182-BTS
ASM 183
IH2 238
A 179-BTS
PPSSM 53
FF 233-BTS
....

IH2 238 does successfully fit before A 179-BTS in the current chronology. (But not without squeezing a lot of Hulk apps, including the HCs, into 1 of those small spaces again - . However the Marvel U is full of issues which are supposed to follow on closely but which have to be separated to make room for everything else. So I should just get over it!)

But when I apply my big change for HSMASHA 2 they get reversed and widely separated. But does it matter?

Tinkerer in both issues is just going about his business making equipment for villains - Goldbug in IH2 238, Stinger bts in A 179. There isn't any reason they have to be in either order. (In fact the latest Avengers and Spider-Man Indexes have A 179 immediately after ASM 183, with the Av Index then saying IH2 238 follows. So they agree with what I'm going to suggest!) Which is of course:-

TINKERER/PHINEAS MASON
....
ASM 182-BTS
ASM 183
A 179-BTS
IH2 238 moved from after ASM 183
PPSSM 53
FF 233-BTS
....



That's the end! Summary to follow.

robfj
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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:55 am

So it's been a thread of 2 halves.

In the 1st half I listed some changes to remove existing clashes I discovered while researching the main topic.

The 2nd half was the original plan to merge Hulk Smash Avengers 2 into the existing crossover block of Captain America 228-230 and Hulk 232-233.



If my diagnoses were correct then the changes in the 1st half need to be applied even if you don't accept my grand design in the 2nd half.

These changes are mainly those in the 2nd post:-
A change to Dum Dum Dugan to line up ASM 187.
A change to Edwin Jarvis to line up M/TIO@ 4.
A change to Iron Man to line up M/SH3 10/3-11/3.
A change to Hulk moving M/TU@ 2.
This doesn't actually resolve a clash but relieves an unsightly bunching.
Within this I also slightly move IH@ 8 because of analysis of IH2 238.

Then in individual posts I added 3 more changes:-
Restoring an earlier direct connection in Hulk chronology between DEF 119-FB, ALIAS 25-26-FBs and DEF 69. (Which I will later disrupt again for a 'higher purpose'.)
Slightly moving M/TU@ 2 in Hulk again because my 1st move had messed something else up.
Updating Senator hawk's chronology to include the missing IH2 apps.

Then much later, after I'd posted most of the 2nd half, I added a correction to Moon Knight's existing chronology in a separate post.


As I say these changes are independent of my main change. But it did turn out that some of them are rendered redundant by it:-
Joining DEF 119-FB to ALIAS 25-26-FBs and DEF 69 will become moot when I take DEF 119-FB and ALIAS 25-26-FBs elsewhere.
Moving M/TU@ 2 within Hulk's chronology becomes irrelevant when I move all the Hulk stuff elsewhere. (But the little change to IH@ 8 remains true.)
The Moon Knight change isn't necessary after he's been dragged along by the Hulk move.



In the 2nd half I unveiled the massive changes I deemed necessary to surround HSMASHA 2 with CA 228-230 and IH2 232-233.


In 1 post I moved CA 228-230 to HSMASHA 2.

In doing so I also spread CA 218-227 between CA 217 and HSMASHA 2. This was not strictly necessary, but I believe I gave some justification for it. However I have to admit that aesthetics played a part - preferring not to leave a load of CA issues bunched after CA 217 followed by a long gap. It is possible that some of the minor adjustments in later posts might not have been necessary if I'd not done that. I can cite the apps of Nick Fury and Dugan within CA 222-227 as things that could have stayed where they were. But a quick scan suggests that most of the side-effects were due to the core moving of CA 228-230, and later issues having to be moved out of the way.

I did all that without moving issues of other titles, mainly the Avengers. This was because the 2 titles didn't reference each other very clearly. Apart from 1 instance in A 179 which I *had* to reinterpret.

I believe a gave a mostly reasonable account of the amended lives of Cap and Falcon.



In the next post I struggled with the Hulk's timeline. This was more complicated.

Hulk's own chronology was intimately tied up with the Defenders, and hence with Dr Strange. But luckily the group of Hulk apps (in 3 different titles he had then) I had to mess around with was within a basically Defenders-free period, and so the violence to Defenders and Dr Strange chronology was restricted to the shifting of DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS 25-26-FBs I mentioned earlier. Which also tweaked Captain America's timeline.



The next post covered the knock-on changes to the chronologies of other Avengers.

It may not always be obvious in individual timelines why I put CA issues where I do. I constructed a large spreadsheet of individual heroes' timelines and then matched up shared apps. In most cases this left little leeway in a total ordering of issues in an overall chronology, often none. So for any particular character's timeline there may be some CA issues that could be shifted slightly without doing violence to connections in the spreadsheet. But it would *only* be a slight shift, say swapping 2 apps around - 1 from CA and 1 from another title.

(It was while setting up this spreadsheet that I found the clashes I fixed earlier.)



I then moved on to other heroes who got caught up in the move.

Daredevil and his cast were affected by CA moves, as was Spider-Man.

The Hulk moves didn't change Machine Man's chronology directly, but via him affected the timelines of the Fantastic Four.

Hulk also altered Marvel Man/Quasar's timeline, with knock-on effects for Nick Fury and Dum Dum Dugan, who both also suffered from CA.

SHIELD Agent Clay Quartermain was attached to Gamma Base at this time and moved with the Hulk apps.



Finally, after the Moon Knight thing, I dealt with add-ons Senator Hawk, Morgan and Tinkerer.

JephYork
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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by JephYork » Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:35 am

This is a lot of words.

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