PPSSM#97 and its environs

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robfj
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PPSSM#97 and its environs

Post by robfj » Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:22 pm

I was exploring Secret Wars II for the Iron Man Library when I fell into the quagmire that is the Emperor Doom GN. However I also noted several minor chronology problems in the issues within SW II, and between it and SW I. This is the 1st of several notes about them.



There is a disagreement about the order of PPSSM#97 and PNSUB#3 (marked with **) in the chronologies of Spider-Man and Mr Fantastic.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
....
ASM 258 (11 - 23)
ASM 259
PNSUB 3 **
PPSSM 96
PPSSM 97 **
M/TU 147
M/TU 148
....

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
....
ASM 258
ASM 259
A 249
T 350-BTS
T 351
T 352
T 353-BTS
PPSSM 97 **
M/TU@ 7/2-BTS
FF 271
FF 272
FF 273
PNSUB 3 **
FF 274
....

The guest appearances in PNSUB3 all occur together and can't be separated. But they are generic cameos and could be placed anywhere reasonably nearby in the relevant timelines. So PNSUB3 *could* be moved to before PPSSM#97 for MrF. However ...

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM
....
ASM 258
A 249
T 350-BTS
T 351
T 352
COH 4
T 353
PPSSM 97 **
M/TU@ 7/2
FF 271
FF 272
FF 273
PNSUB 3
PPSSM 97 **
M/TU 147
M/TU 148
QP 3
FF 274
....

If we turn to Human Torch we find that he also has both issues. But he has PPSSM#97 both before *and* after PNSUB#3, each app compatible with either MrF or Spidey. HT does appear twice in PPSSM#97, but MrF and the Venom symbiote are with him both times and they don't have double occurrences. The 1st app is only a flashback to events in ASM#258 so I believe it doesn't count (and anyway the early position of PPSSM#97 for HT and MrF *isn't* inside ASM#258). So there should only be 1 app of HT to go with the single apps of MrF and Venom. (This app has the Venom symbiote trying to trick HT and MrF into letting him escape from his containment tube. There is no app of Venom in between the 2 possible positions for PPSSM#97 so it doesn't make any difference to that chronology.)

There are no other characters in both PPSSM#97 and PNSUB#3 to offer direct opinions. But Invisible Girl and She-Hulk agree with MrF and HT that PNSUB#3 follows FF#271-273, so moving PNSUB#3 to before MrF's PPSSM#97 would require changing all 4 of the FF (as they then were).

I suggest instead that we correct PPSSM#97. Delete the 1st entry for Torch, leaving the other 1 agreeing with Spidey. Move MrF's entry to line up with both, putting it just after PNSUB#3. This minimises the changes, and I can't find any references in the issues that are contradicted by this. (By the way M/TU Annual #7/2 doesn't actually involve Spider-Man.) No other chars in PPSSM#97 are affected by the choice of position.

The changes are:-

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
....
ASM 258
ASM 259
A 249
T 350-BTS
T 351
T 352
T 353-BTS
M/TU@ 7/2-BTS
FF 271
FF 272
FF 273
PNSUB 3
PPSSM 97 moved from after T 353-BTS
FF 274
....

HUMAN TORCH II/JOHNNY STORM
....
ASM 258
A 249
T 350-BTS
T 351
T 352
COH 4
T 353
(PPSSM 97 delete this)
M/TU@ 7/2
FF 271
FF 272
FF 273
PNSUB 3
PPSSM 97
M/TU 147
M/TU 148
QP 3
FF 274
....

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER isn't changed
....
ASM 258 (11 - 23)
ASM 259
PNSUB 3
PPSSM 96
PPSSM 97
M/TU 147
M/TU 148
....



There's a separate clash around PPSSM#97 over the positioning of ASM Annual #18 between Spidey and Betty Brant/Joe Robertson.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
....
ASM 256 (15 - 22)
ASM 257
ASM 258 (1 - 10)
SM/HT 4
M/TU 146
PPSSM@ 4
PPSSM@ 4/2
ASM 258 (11 - 23)
ASM 259
PNSUB 3
PPSSM 96
PPSSM 97 **
M/TU 147
M/TU 148
ASM@ 18 **
QP 2
SMF2 5-FB
SMF2 5
SMF2 5/2
ASM 260
....

BRANT, BETTY
....
ASM 256
PPSSM 96
ASM@ 18 **
PPSSM 97 **
ASM 260
....

ROBERTSON, JOE
....
ASM 256
ASM@ 18 **
PPSSM 97 **
ASM 260
....

None of the other characters in ASM@#18 (J Jonah Jameson's wedding to Marla Madison) occur in PPSSM#97 or MTU#147-148 and so don't care which position it's in. The action in ASM@#18 is continuous so I don't think it can be split into 2 parts. And Spidey is in all of it so he would have to be listed in both places. I can't find any references which fix the order this absolutely. The only specific back-comment in ASM@#18 is to getting rid of the Venom symbiote in ASM#258, before this set of issues. BB and JR may outnumber SM but it's *his* comic so I guess *they* should be moved to join *him*.

Changes:-

BRANT, BETTY
....
ASM 256
PPSSM 96
PPSSM 97
ASM@ 18 moved from before PPSSM 97
ASM 260
....

ROBERTSON, JOE
....
ASM 256
PPSSM 97
ASM@ 18 moved from before PPSSM 97
ASM 260
....

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER again remains unchanged
....
ASM 256 (15 - 22)
ASM 257
ASM 258 (1 - 10)
SM/HT 4
M/TU 146
PPSSM@ 4
PPSSM@ 4/2
ASM 258 (11 - 23)
ASM 259
PNSUB 3
PPSSM 96
PPSSM 97
M/TU 147
M/TU 148
ASM@ 18
QP 2
SMF2 5-FB
SMF2 5
SMF2 5/2
ASM 260
....



I'll throw in 1 last Spidey-related bit. There's a separate little slip in his chronology where ASM#270(22) is referred to as ASM#279(22).

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
....
ASM 269
M/CP 160/4
ASM 270 (1 - 21)
ASM 279 (22) ~ A 258 (10 - 11:1) **
A 258 (11:2 - 22)
PPSSM@ 5
....

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Re: PPSSM#97 and its environs

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:56 am

I *THINK* the double PPSSM 97 placement in the Human Torch's chronology was an accidental result of moving it or PNSUB 3.

I remember PNSUB 3 being moved as a result of moving SOMETHING at some point. M/GN 17, maybe? And something to do with the alien symbiote costume? (I think the symbiote was originally listed as appearing in PNSUB 3 (and maybe in M/GN 17, too), even though it (they?) took place after Spider-Man got rid of it)

That discussion may still be on the posting board somewhere, or maybe in the archives. If we can track that down, it'll (hopefully) inform where PNSUB 3 goes in relation to PPSSM 97. If not, at least we tried! :)
-Daron Jensen

Michael
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Re: PPSSM#97 and its environs

Post by Michael » Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:34 am

We had a discussion regarding PNSUB 3 here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4704
and also here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5006

robfj
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Re: PPSSM#97 and its environs

Post by robfj » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:34 pm

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5006 says that PNSUB#3 was originally scattered across 4 different places:-
Defenders: prior to Secret Wars
Spider-Man and Venom: after Secret Wars but before the Surtwar
Fantastic Four: after the Surtwar but before FF 274
Dr. Strange: after FF 274

This seems to have all been sorted out. (Possibly by including bits of sleight of hand like declaring the app of Spider-Man (and many others) in UX#190-191 as an alternative universe version and so not having to place it in Spidey's chronology.) Anyway all the PNSUB#3 apps are now after the Surtwar and before FF#274. (Or at least none of the individual chronologies of characters from either issue directly contradict this. The same applies to chars that appear in other issues between Human Torch's 2 possible places for PPSSM#97. There might still be chronology-chains involving other chars that mess things up, but I haven't stumbled across any.)

Whatever their order PPSSM#97 and PNSUB#3 both lie in that gap so the discrepancy here is of a lower order than the original problem. But I agree that it was probably an accidental consequence of the juggling that was involved in solving the bigger problem.

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