FEAR ITSELF to AVX

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:34 am

Siabod wrote:I noticed that Hawkeye is wearing his old costume for FF 600. I don't know if this is a mistake or reflects that it should placed further back, before Frost hurts her arm and Hawkeye changes costume? Which first appears in Avengers Academy 22. However, in a comic (I forget which), he wears his old costume because the new is being laundered. This could be another time.
Some issue of Avenging Spider-Man, if I remember right.
Siabod wrote:Is there reason UX2 1-8 has to come before the others. From memory, I don't think so
UX2 1 establishes Cyclops' "extinction" team, and has to happen fairly early on. There is a break in UX2 1, but I still have to check to see how much time passes. I also still need to look into A4 24.1 to see how it fits into all of this.
Siabod wrote:Otherwise potential for

W&X 4 (1:1 - 1:2)
Uncanny X-Force 10-19 (1 - 15) (before UX2 5-8)
W&X 4 (1:3 - 1:5)
UXFOR 19 (16 - 20) - 23

to cut out and placed before UX2 5-8? Possible even before. "X-Men: Regensis" the reason I suggest this that Psylocke makes a point about not being in the X-Force again to Cyclops within X-Men: Regensis

Both the W&X 4 sections can be seen as flash backs and W&X #2 proper starting on page 2 when they finally decided to come out about X-Force and bring Warren and genesis to the school. Bobby does mention at this time he hasn't spoken to Warren in Weeks and the school has been open for a week
It's not just that chunk, it's all of this:

W4 20
W2 300-303
Daken: Dark Wolverine 21-23
W&X 4 (1:1 - 1:2)
Uncanny X-Force 10-19 (1 - 15)
W&X 4 (1:3 - 1:5)
UXFOR 19 (16 - 20) - 23
W&X 4 (2 - 18)
W2 304
DPOOL4 50-54
Uncanny X-Force 24-35

This can't go before Regenesis for various reasons (Wolverine opens the school in Regenesis, and it's already open in this batch). This is pretty much locked in where it is. Stuff can be moved around it, though.

I'm clearing things off my to-do list, and hope to get to this early this week.

Good thinking, Siabod, keep it up! :thumbsup:
-Daron Jensen

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Siabod » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:58 pm

Just another spanner in the works

I see that Deadpool looks like he still has his healing factor in Uncanny XForce 24 (he's ugly and survives and fall from massive heights) and then the healing factors looks gone in 25 (handsome DeadpooL)

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Siabod » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:47 am

Ok

So this my first real attempt to help out

Uncanny X-Force 10-18 (or 19 p15)
  • Wolverine, Deadpool, Fantomex, Angel, Psylocke
    11 - Warrens goes crazy and is caught by Wolverine and Pyslocke, free Evil Beast
    12-13 - alternate reality
    14 - Warren freed by Evil Beast, creates Tabula Rasa
    15-16 fight losing battle against Warren
    17 - Nightcrawler and co to save the day
    18 - Warren is reborn with no memory
    Occurs over 1-2 days?
Uncanny X-men 5-8
  • Occurs day after UXF 14
    Psylocke is with Extinction Team exploring Tabula Rasa
    Occurs over one day
Wolverine
  • W4 20
    W2 300-303
    Daken: Dark Wolverine 21-23
    Is there enough time for wolverine to come back from “killing” Warren/Angel, then get caught up with Japan, and then Daken on return from Japan before X-Force 19
    W&X 4 (1:1 - 1:2) could well be a flash back from first day of school or any other day
Uncanny X-Force 19 (or 19 p16) - 23
  • Gap enough between 18 and 19 or at end of 19 (pages 15-16) to fit in some story line
    W&X 4 (1:3 - 1:5) obviously occurs within 19 after page 15
    Warren and Genesis could well have been in care of Fantomex and/or Deathlock during the above wolverine storylines. Once back from Japan decided to have Warren and Genesis go to his School
    Mostly occurs in Otherworld
W&X 4 (2 - 18) Genesis and Angel at School

W2 304 Wolverine crashes Sabretooth, Mystique, and Daken’s party in Madripor

Uncanny X-Force 24
  • A bit confusing
    There are two storylines alternating within the book
    One has Deadpool, Nightcrawler and Wolverine killing Ice Man from different reality, which occurs in Madripor
    The other has Fantomex and Pyslocke, and starts 3 days after Uncanny X-Force 23
    Second story runs straight into #25
    Even though these stories read as if happening at the same time, they don’t have to be. One half could happen days before
    So…
Uncanny X-Force 24: wolverine/deadpool/nightcrawler parts
  • Deadpool still ugly and survives great fall
DPOOL4 50-54

Uncanny X-Force 24: Fantomex and Pyslocke parts

Uncanny X-Force 25-35
  • Deadpool lost his healing factor
    Editors notes says 25 occurs after Deadpool #54
    Genesis is at school

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:23 pm

A4 24.1 happens pretty much on it's own. The Vision returned in the previous arc (A4 19-24), and here the Vision goes to check in on various characters to see how things have been doing since he "died." He visits the X-Men to yell at Magneto; no mention of "Extinction Team" that I see, Cyclops, Emma Frost and Colossus (with Juggernaut powers, that makes sense for the time) are training Hope on Utopia. A pretty standard cameo appearance for the X-Men, really. Published the same month as UX2 8-9 & FF 604 (in an era of extended multi-issue storylines publication order doesn't always matter, but still). In theory shortly after A4 24, but I guess not necessarily.

UX2 1 pages 1-10 establishes Cyclops' Extinction Team. Page 10 says it's "week one" (pages 1-9 being day one and page 10 spanning the rest of the week, with no missions of note happening in that week), then pages 11-28 is "week two" with the adventure where Frost loses an arm (continued directly into issues 2-3). Only a week passes between pages 10-11 (pages 11-28 could be at the end of the second week, say, on a Friday instead of a Monday, but we're talking a matter of days here).

NOTE: this page count doesn't include the symbolic splash page at the start of the book. If you wanted to include that, then we're talking about pages 1-11 & 12-29.

UX2 1 pretty obviously wants to happen very shortly after SCHISM. In theory, it should be happening roughly at the same time as W&X 1-3, but really, as long as we don't have any appearances of Cyclops' Extinction Team (or references to the team) before UX2 1 (1-10) we should be good.

UX2 5-8 happens at a time where Frost is still out of commission, so she can't make any appearances elsewhere with two arms between UX2 3 & 5 (she gets her arm back somewhere off-panel between UX2 8-9).

How does all of this fit in with Frost's other appearances with two arms? Can the "week one" "week two" time references hold up? I'm going to poke around some more and find out!

-edit-

UX2 5 should probably happen fairly soon after UX2 3. Cyclops promotes Psylocke in UX2 5 because Frost is out of commission (they're both psychics; Psylocke replaces Frost). I suppose the Extinction Team could limp along for a while without a psychic, but why would Cyclops wait to make the replacement? That was the thinking when this chronology was put together at least. Hmn.
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:04 pm

Leaving Deadpool in UXFOR 24 aside (I’m not too concerned with him falling off a building, and besides, an editor’s note in the next issue makes it clear where the story goes), here’s where I’m at.

A4 24.1 fits nicely right after A4 24.

We’re going to have to ignore/reinterpret the “week one” “week two” thing in UX2 1. UXFOR 10-35 can’t get moved back that far for various reasons, and UX2 5-8 has to happen after that. So, UX2 2-3 do as well. Just by moving those UX2 issues to later, we avoid Emma Frost appearing in other books when she shouldn’t be.

UX2 1 (1-10) (Extinction Team established, as well as the direction of all Utopia-based teams)
ASTONX3 44-47 (Extinction Team)
New Mutants v3 33-36 (must follow at least UX2 1 (1-10))
X-Men v3 20-29 (Storm leads subgroup of Extinction Team) (before DPOOL4 50 & UXFOR 10-19)
Incredible Hulk 1-7.1
CA6 6-10
Villains for Hire 0.1-4
New Avengers v2 16.1
Avenging Spider-Man 4-5
(red) Hulk 49
Avengers: X-Sanction 1-4
New Avengers v2 17-23
Avengers v4 19, 20 (1-8) (Storm joins Avengers) (Vision returns)
Quake: S.H.I.E.L.D. 50th Anniversary 1
Avengers v4 20 (9-20), 21-24 & 24.1 (Frost just fine)
F.F. 3-11
Fantastic Four 600-604 / F.F. 12-16 (Frost just fine)
New Mutants v3 37-41
W4 20 (start of block)
W2 300-303
Daken: Dark Wolverine 21-23
W&X 4 (1:1 - 1:2)
Uncanny X-Force 10-19 (1 - 15) (before UX2 5-8)
W&X 4 (1:3 - 1:5)
UXFOR 19 (16 - 20) - 23
W&X 4 (2 - 18)
W2 304
DPOOL4 50-54
Uncanny X-Force 24-35 (end of block)
UX2 1 (11-28)-3 & 4-FB (Frost loses an arm, “a week” after UX2 1 (1-10))
Vengeance 1-6
UX2 5-8 & 4 (Frost out of commission) (after UXFOR 14)
ASM 676
X-Men: Legacy 261-265
DD3 7
ASM 677
DD3 8-10
ASM 678-679
GENH 13-17 (Namor feels need to check on Frost to see how she's doing; because of arm?)
ASM 679.1
Secret Avengers 22-25
(red) Hulk 50-52
Uncanny X-Men v2 9-10 (Frost’s arm already back)

How’s it look?
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:37 am

Currently, Avengers: Children’s Crusade is placed shortly before the Fear Itself crossover. However, Steve Rogers appears as Captain America in A:CC; that’s not the case before Fear Itself, but it is the case after Fear Itself. Also currently, The Avengers / New Avengers Annuals (featuring Wonder Man going crazy) of the time are placed after A:CC and right before Fear Itself. The A:CC placements is because of editorial comments on a blog that no longer exist; the Annuals’ placement is from an editorial note. There’s in-story evidence to place A:CC after Fear Itself (Steve Rogers as Captain America), so let’s explore that.

For Wonder Man, the order should stay the same. He’s sane in A:CC, and then goes crazy (and destroys Avengers Tower!) in the Annuals. The next time he’s seen (A4 31-34) picks up on this new, crazy status quo (side note: Avengers Tower was also destroyed in Fear Itself, but it being destroyed twice so close together was always a problem). We’d have to ignore the note in this case, but I don’t see how it makes any sense for Wonder Man otherwise.

So, Fear Itself -> A:CC -> Avengers / New Avengers Annuals

As for Magneto, we had interpreted UX 526/2 more as a lead-in to A:CC than as a post-script to second Coming. With A:CC moving (in theory) to after Fear Itself, the clues to place UX 526/2 so far after Second Coming will no longer work. So (in theory), UX 526/2 would be moved back to shortly after Second Coming. I guess Magneto went looking for his grandkids and had no luck, so he gave up (or something).

Rictor gets his powers back in A:CC, so X-Factor #225-228 would have to move to after Fear Itself as well.

So…

FEAR ITSELF
DPOOL4 37-FB
A4 13-18 / NA2 14-16 (the current day interview parts)
TB 163.1
ASOLO 1-5 (& back-ups)
FI:FEARLESS 1-12
Defenders 1-12 (just the book-end 616 bits)
Journey into Mystery 631-636
Mighty Thor 8-17
Iron Man 2.0 8-12
Avengers: Children’s Crusade 1-9 (1 - 15)
X-Factor 225-228
CA& 620-624
X-23 v3 13-16
NA@2 1 / A@2 1
Iron Man 510-527

Thoughts?
-Daron Jensen

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Siabod » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:31 am

One thing:

Emma Frost has two arms throughout Generation Hope 13-17, and Namor is only seen in 13 training against the Lights and 17 when controlled by Kenji/Zero. Neither time does he talk to Emma

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:58 pm

You're right!

The scene that's supposed to be referring to is in UX2 9, and it's definitely Namor checking on her arm (it still itches).

UX2 9 opens with Emma Frost already having two arms again. We don't ever see her arm get reattached on-panel anywhere. Also, since Namor feels the need to check on Frost in UX2 9 (and that she points out it *STILL* itches) we can surmise that the arm didn't *JUST* get reattached. In theory, that means it could have been reattached before GENH 13-17 (it gets fixed off-panel somewhere, GENH 13-17 happens, then UX2 9-10 happens). That would also means it's itching in GENH 13-17, which might be how that clue got attached to GENH 13-17, but that's my fault. Thanks for spotting that!

If we ever get a flashback showing her arm get reattached (unlikely at this point) it would have to go before GENH 13-17.

But why not put GENH 13-17 after UX2 10? GENH 13-17 was published the same months as UX2 1-8; taking publication order into account, GENH 13-17 should either go before UX2 1, during UX2 1 or between UX2 8-9. Before UX2 1 is out, and I'd like to keep publication order somewhat intact so after UX2 10 is out (unless there's some plot element that forces a placement). During UX2 1 used to be out because we were sticking to that one week reference, but now that we're ignoring it I suppose it's an option again.

Anyway, that's the thought process. :)
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Aragorn45 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:32 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Currently, Avengers: Children’s Crusade is placed shortly before the Fear Itself crossover. However, Steve Rogers appears as Captain America in A:CC; that’s not the case before Fear Itself, but it is the case after Fear Itself. Also currently, The Avengers / New Avengers Annuals (featuring Wonder Man going crazy) of the time are placed after A:CC and right before Fear Itself. The A:CC placements is because of editorial comments on a blog that no longer exist; the Annuals’ placement is from an editorial note. There’s in-story evidence to place A:CC after Fear Itself (Steve Rogers as Captain America), so let’s explore that.

For Wonder Man, the order should stay the same. He’s sane in A:CC, and then goes crazy (and destroys Avengers Tower!) in the Annuals. The next time he’s seen (A4 31-34) picks up on this new, crazy status quo (side note: Avengers Tower was also destroyed in Fear Itself, but it being destroyed twice so close together was always a problem). We’d have to ignore the note in this case, but I don’t see how it makes any sense for Wonder Man otherwise.

So, Fear Itself -> A:CC -> Avengers / New Avengers Annuals

As for Magneto, we had interpreted UX 526/2 more as a lead-in to A:CC than as a post-script to second Coming. With A:CC moving (in theory) to after Fear Itself, the clues to place UX 526/2 so far after Second Coming will no longer work. So (in theory), UX 526/2 would be moved back to shortly after Second Coming. I guess Magneto went looking for his grandkids and had no luck, so he gave up (or something).

Rictor gets his powers back in A:CC, so X-Factor #225-228 would have to move to after Fear Itself as well.

So…

FEAR ITSELF
DPOOL4 37-FB
A4 13-18 / NA2 14-16 (the current day interview parts)
TB 163.1
ASOLO 1-5 (& back-ups)
FI:FEARLESS 1-12
Defenders 1-12 (just the book-end 616 bits)
Journey into Mystery 631-636
Mighty Thor 8-17
Iron Man 2.0 8-12
Avengers: Children’s Crusade 1-9 (1 - 15)
X-Factor 225-228
CA& 620-624
X-23 v3 13-16
NA@2 1 / A@2 1
Iron Man 510-527

Thoughts?
The annuals with evil Wonder Man come before Fear Itself, and before Children's Crusade. The Avengers let Simon out of prison to help them look for Wanda in Children's Crusade. It is never explained otherwise how he got out of jail. He returns to the Avengers after AVX and wants to help because Scarlet Witch has returned to the team.
Avengers: The Children's Crusade takes place between Avengers 18 and Avengers 19. At the end Iron Lad destroys the Young Avengers Vision. Tony Stark responds to this by getting the real Vision out of the warehouse and fixes him. Avengers 24.1 should come just before Avengers 19, where Vision rejoins the team. Avengers Academy 22 marks the first time Magneto and Quicksilver have seen each other since Children's Crusade

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Michael » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:40 pm

Previously, placement of Children's Crusade was discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6260

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:22 am

Aragorn45 wrote:The annuals with evil Wonder Man come before Fear Itself, and before Children's Crusade.
Yes, there's an editor's note in the Annuals saying they happen before Fear Itself, but Children's Crusade hadn't yet finished by that point (the Annuals were published between A:CC 8-9, and after Fear Itself finished). I'm arguing we should ignore that editor's note and put the Annuals after Fear Itself.

Of course, Avengers Tower was destroyed in the Annuals, and Avengers Tower was also destroyed in Fear Itself. I'm assuming that in editorial's mind Avengers Tower remained "gone" from Fear Itself to AvX, meaning the most recent time Avengers Tower was destroyed was in Fear Itself; therefore, the Annuals have to happen before Fear Itself (and again, I'm assuming the thought process here, I really have no idea why that editor's note says the Annuals are before Fear Itself, but that's the only thing I can think of). I'm saying it doesn't really matter when Avengers Tower was destroyed most recently given other clues:

Wonder Man knows the Scarlet Witch is alive in the Annuals, but he doesn't learn that until A:CC. He can't know something until he learns something, so A:CC (he learns the Scarlet Witch is alive) has to happen before the Annuals (he knows the Scarlet Witch is alive), right?
Aragorn45 wrote:The Avengers let Simon out of prison to help them look for Wanda in Children's Crusade.
I'm not seeing that in A:CC. Actually, I'm not seeing any mention of prison anywhere in A:CC (I don't know why that would be in there; he was imprisoned in the Annuals which were published between A:CC 8-9; Wonder Man showed up several issues earlier than that in A:CC. How would they know Wonder Man would be imprisoned a year or two (publication-wise) before it happened?). I do see the Avengers calling Wonder Man for help in A:CC, though, but I don't really see any animosity between Wonder Man and the Avengers in A:CC (as I would expect if A:CC happened after the Annuals, but of course the absence of evidence isn't evidence. Having said that, there is animosity in their NEXT meeting in A4 31). In my mind, I don't see the Avengers calling Wonder Man for help after the Annuals, but hey, mileage may vary.
Aragorn45 wrote:It is never explained otherwise how he got out of jail.
Yeah, when he shows up later after AvX it's kind of glossed over. Maybe he got a psyche evaluation and was released or something? Who knows? But when Wonder Man shows up in A4 31, Cap recaps the events of the Annuals as the most recent time they saw each other. Meaning, the Annuals should happen after A:CC (to be fair, there's a bit of revisionist history going on in A4 31. Cap says Wonder Man almost knocked over Avengers Mansion but doesn't mention Avengers Tower being destroyed).
Aragorn45 wrote:He returns to the Avengers after AVX and wants to help because Scarlet Witch has returned to the team.
True.
Aragorn45 wrote:Avengers: The Children's Crusade takes place between Avengers 18 and Avengers 19. At the end Iron Lad destroys the Young Avengers Vision. Tony Stark responds to this by getting the real Vision out of the warehouse and fixes him. Avengers 24.1 should come just before Avengers 19, where Vision rejoins the team. Avengers Academy 22 marks the first time Magneto and Quicksilver have seen each other since Children's Crusade.
That's pretty much where my most recent suggestion has A:CC. It sounds like we just disagree on where to put the Annuals.

Thanks, Aragorn45! You suggested moving A:CC to after Fear Itself back in August, which is what got this ball rolling. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Frans » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:29 pm

Not to rain on the parade, but isn't Fear Itself referenced in the last issue of ACC? That was the problem all along, I also remember that we discussed this a long time ago on this board.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Yep, this has been a tricky series to place. :lol:

The last five pages of A:CC 9 happen "months" after the main story, and occurs over a period of time. Spider-Island (ASM 666-673), Schism and the Human Torch's return (FF 600) are referenced as happening during that span. As long as A:CC 1-8 & most of 9 happen before those stories, we're good. Then, the fifth-to-last page of A:CC 9 happens over those "months," and the last four pages happens at some point after FF 600-604.

Fear Itself isn't referenced, that I can see.

Thanks Frans!
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Aragorn45 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:56 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Wonder Man knows the Scarlet Witch is alive in the Annuals, but he doesn't learn that until A:CC. He can't know something until he learns something, so A:CC (he learns the Scarlet Witch is alive) has to happen before the Annuals (he knows the Scarlet Witch is alive), right?
Wonder Man says that Wanda is alive, but says that Wanda hasn't gotten the help that she needs. She gets that help in A:CC. Therefore, the annuals happen before Fear Itself.
Last edited by Col_Fury on Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: marking a quote

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:58 am

He also says that she’s never paid for her crimes against humanity. He also blames the Avengers for Norman Osborn being in charge of things for a while. Also, he’s crazy in the Annuals. Who knows what he means? I mean, he’s talking and acting like a crazy person. :lol:

Anyway, let’s take Fear Itself out of the equation for a moment.

* * *

In A:CC 3 when Simon shows up, he’s on fairly decent terms with the Avengers. He learns Wanda is alive, he doesn’t want to be on the team, and he doesn’t agree with Wolverine’s suggestion to kill Wanda. When they find her and discover she’d been manipulated by Doctor Doom, he suggests that she doesn’t join the Avengers. Everyone parts on fairly good terms.

In the Annuals, Simon is now crazy. He knows Wanda is alive, attacks Avengers Mansion and blows up Avengers Tower, and is then imprisoned by the Avengers. They’re not on good terms.

After AvX, Simon is out of prison and Captain America says the last time they saw each other was when he attacked Avengers Mansion and Avengers Tower. They’re not on good terms.

* * *

If we switch the order:

* * *

In the Annuals, Simon is now crazy. He knows Wanda is alive, attacks Avengers Mansion and blows up Avengers Tower, and is then imprisoned by the Avengers. They’re not on good terms.

In A:CC 3 when Simon shows up, he’s on fairly decent terms with the Avengers. He learns Wanda is alive, he doesn’t want to be on the team, and he doesn’t agree with Wolverine’s suggestion to kill Wanda. When they find her and discover she’d been manipulated by Doctor Doom, he suggests that she doesn’t join the Avengers. Everyone parts on fairly good terms.

After AvX, Simon is out of prison and Captain America says the last time they saw each other was when he attacked Avengers Mansion and Avengers Tower. They’re not on good terms.

* * *

With this chain of events, the reader has to come up with an explanation as to why Simon and the Avengers are on good terms when the last time they saw each other, Simon blew up their house and they threw him in prison. Also, the reader has to wonder how Simon knew something before he learned something. Also, the reader has to explain why in the third story they say the last time they saw each other was the Annuals, when A:CC would be the last time they saw each other. Also, why are they no longer on good terms when they were in A:CC, the last time they saw each other?

If we switch the order to the first option, all those questions go away. The reader doesn’t have to assume “oh, they put their differences aside to help Wanda.” Or “eh, they’re overlooking the Wanda thing… because.” They aren’t even questions anymore, because the orders itself explains things.

Am I making sense? What do others think?
-Daron Jensen

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