FEAR ITSELF to AVX

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Siabod
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Siabod » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:19 pm

HI

You say that Wonder Man "learns" of Wanda being back in ACC 3. I don't quite read it that way. The Avengers ask him to find Wanda, he doesn't seem that surprised and is angry at them for their failings.

Also reading the Annuals, he doesn't say that she's back, just that he blames the Avengers for her. This could be back went things went bad ages ago

so..

Annuals happen: Simon as angry at Avengers generally and Wanda specifically (from House of M). They imprison him.

ACC: Wanda's back and they need his help to find her before she destroys the world. Neither happy to be working with the other. One problem is that he doesn't seem surprised that she's back, but we drop in the conversation part way through. It starts with him saying :"Why me?"

Can't answer the "when we last met" issue

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Aragorn45 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:25 pm

While we are on the subject of A:CC, I have another question. You have placed the flashback where Wanda goes to see Doom and is possessed by the Life Force in between Avengers 63 and Uncanny X-Men 425. She went to see Doom after the poolside conversation with Wasp in the flashback in Avengers 503, which you have placed between Witches 1 and Daredevil 61. Shouldn't the Avengers 503 flashback precede the A:CC 7 flashback?

XX 11
M/DS 2/2
A3 63
[A:CC 7-FB]
UX 425
UX 426
A3 65
A3 66
A3 67
A3 68
A3 69
A3 70
ALIAS 28
A3 72
A3 73
A3 74
A3 75
A3 76
IM3 75
SH 1
SH 2
UX 442
UX 443
A/TB 1
A/TB 2
A/TB 3
A/TB 4
A/TB 5
A/TB 6
XSTATIX 21
XSTATIX 22
XSTATIX 25
XSTATIX 26-FB
GLA 1-FB
A3 77
A3 79
A3 80
A3 81
A3 82
A3 83
WITCHES 1
A 503-FB
DD2 61
M/KSM 2
RUN 18-FB
CA&FAL 1-FB
CA&FAL 2
CA&FAL 3
CA&FAL 4
CA&FAL 5
CA&FAL 6
CA&FAL 7
YA SPEC-FB
A 500
A 502-BTS
A 503

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:47 pm

Yeah, I'm falling into a shorthand in describing A:CC.

Before A:CC, no one knows (except Hawkeye) that Wanda is alive. Wiccan thinks she might be alive, maybe (see also Young Avengers Presents, this mini and other series), and other people (like the Avengers, and Magneto, and the rest of the Young Avengers, and...) wonder if she might be alive. Magneto and the Young Avengers find her in A:CC 3, and at roughly the same time the Avengers decide to look for her since people seem convinced that she might be alive. They recruit Wonder Man, and then the Avengers (with Wonder Man) find her through the rest of A:CC, and that she's being held by Doom, etc. etc.

The point is, no one knows for sure that she's alive (yes, except Hawkeye) before A:CC, and they discover that she is alive during A:CC.

Ah! (says someone) Maybe Hawkeye told the Avengers she was alive, and that's how Wonder Man knew? That way the Annuals could happen before A:CC. Well, in NA 26 Hawkeye decided he wouldn't tell anyone that she's alive (technically it was a robot he found, but he didn't know that), and makes it clear in A:CC 6 that he didn't tell anyone (by the time everyone knows she's alive, he says he already knew, and people are shocked). So that's out.

So anyway, it's not a matter of her being back, it's a matter of people knowing she's alive. Wonder Man definitively states that's she's alive in the Annuals. He (and the Avengers) didn't KNOW that before A:CC.

And then of course, there's the "when we last met" thing.

Thanks Siabod!

-edit-

The recent Avengers Index placed A 503-FB, but not A:CC 7-FB (it's not in the recent Uncanny X-Men Index, either). I'll have to poke around to see where that came from (probably a suggestion from the posting board), but yeah, all thing being equal, in theory I agree A:CC 7-FB should happen after A 503-FB.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:54 pm

Turns out it's Doctor Doom's fault:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6054

Doctor Doom was in hell at the time of A 500-503, so A:CC 7-FB has to occur some time before Doom goes to hell. That's the short version; follow the link for the long version.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:21 am

Could Wonder Man know she's alive because of some sort of "bond" because she mystically resurrected him? More of a feeling, then of actually knowing. Plus during the time time he seems mentally unhinged because he was leaking ionic energy. Something the Avengers may have fixed BTS, while he was imprisoned.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Aragorn45 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:19 pm

I think everyone knows that Wanda is alive but missing after House of M. No one thinks that she is dead. At the beginning of Avengers Volume 4 Wonder Man opposes the existence of the Avengers. He then forms the Revengers to destroy the Avengers in the annuals. I read this story as taking place before Fear Itself. While he was in jail afterwards the Avengers may have fixed his leaking energy problem. The Avengers then let him out of jail after Fear Itself to help them look for Wanda. He isn't angry at Wanda. He has feelings for Wanda. He is mad at the Avengers for what happened to Wanda. After he finds Wanda he tells her that the Avengers are now more of an army than a family. After Wanda rejoins the team in AVX, then Simon wants to be on the team again to be with her. I think that Cap's comment to Simon is just another continuity error by Bendis.

Annuals
Fear Itself
Avengers 18
Children's Crusade
Avengers Academy 22
Avengers 24.1
Avengers 19
The Norman Osborn/Dark Avengers story
AVX 0
AVX
Avengers End Times

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Aragorn45 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:25 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Turns out it's Doctor Doom's fault:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6054

Doctor Doom was in hell at the time of A 500-503, so A:CC 7-FB has to occur some time before Doom goes to hell. That's the short version; follow the link for the long version.

Thanks!
Doom has a time machine, and could have travelled back in time to be at that place while he was in Hell.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by wolverine7230 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:24 am

Aragorn45 wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:Turns out it's Doctor Doom's fault:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6054

Doctor Doom was in hell at the time of A 500-503, so A:CC 7-FB has to occur some time before Doom goes to hell. That's the short version; follow the link for the long version.

Thanks!
Doom has a time machine, and could have travelled back in time to be at that place while he was in Hell.
Sounds really tenuous. You could use the same ideology to rectify any issues with Doctor Doom's chronology. Or any other characters, who COULD have broken into Doom's castle and borrowed it.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:22 pm

Did anyone try this suggestion by Michael?
Is it possible to move A3 79 back before FF 500?

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:09 pm

No, because as Paul B. pointed out in that thread, A3 79 was published almost a year after FF 500, and A 500 was published a full year after FF 500. Also, A 500 was referenced as recent in FF 517, so the books can't be taken out of sync.

Also pointed out in that thread, even if the Avengers books could be moved, there's still CA&FAL2 1-8 to take into account. A:CC 7-FB can't happen right before A 500 because at least CA&FAL2 1-8 have to be in the middle.

The apparently intended spot for A:CC 7-FB (right before A 500) is an impossible placement, basically. Therefore, it has to go somewhere else. Since there HAS to be a delay between A:CC 7-FB and A 500, and since A:CC 7-FB has to happen at a time when Doctor Doom is available (for a while, given the "all that time we spent in Latveria" line), we're looking at a spot roughly around A3 63.
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Siabod » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:28 am

I've got a couple of questions that might lead to some placement changes

1) did Sabra die in Spider-Man Ends of Days One-Shot. She's shot by Crossbones
2) how much stock do we put in the "headlines" of the daily Bugle at the start of some comics? A few times the adventures of the Punisher are mentioned but then appear later down the list!
3) Also the Punisher is eye patch free in Hulk #10, but has his eye patch before and after that in the current order. Is this just a mistake on the artist's part?

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:41 am

Siabod wrote:1) did Sabra die in Spider-Man Ends of Days One-Shot. She's shot by Crossbones
Maybe? But they made such a big deal out of Silver Sable dying and not her, so probably not. Besides, she continued to appear in X-Men for a year or two following this, so my guess is "no."
Siabod wrote:2) how much stock do we put in the "headlines" of the daily Bugle at the start of some comics? A few times the adventures of the Punisher are mentioned but then appear later down the list!
None. They're fancy recap pages that also promote other books, basically.
Siabod wrote:3) Also the Punisher is eye patch free in Hulk #10, but has his eye patch before and after that in the current order. Is this just a mistake on the artist's part?
I don't know if I'd call it a mistake...

IH4 8 was published the same month as P9 11 (it's currently between P9 10-11). Punisher kept the eyepatch until the end of the volume, but then, we're only talking six months. Hmn...
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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Siabod » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:13 am

Thanks on one and two

With point 3, Punisher still has the patch at the start of Punisher War Zone, but has lost it by #2

Also Exiled One Shot missing from NM3 42-43 / JiM 637-638, the Exiled story line

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:11 am

Ah, ha! Yeah, War Zone was the final nail in the coffin.

Punisher v9 #4-16 (from 2012) has the patch
IH4 8 (from 2012) doesn't have the patch
Punisher: Nightmare (from 2013) doesn't have the patch
PWZ3 1 (from 2013) has the patch again, but this mini ends with Punisher in prison, which is where he still is when the next Thunderbolts volume starts.

IH4 8 & Nightmare can't go during or after PWZ3, and IH4 8 couldn't go before he got the patch for various reasons. So, they ended up in publication order, patch be damned, basically.

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Re: FEAR ITSELF to AVX

Post by Russ Chappell » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:04 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Venom 2-5
Iron Man 510-527
(red) Hulk 42-46
ASM 665 & -FBs
X-Men v2 7-10
ASM 666-673 & Spider-Island tie-ins (inc BP6 524, Venom 6-8 & HERC 7-8)
Venom 9
X-Men v2 11
Herc 9-10
Secret Avengers 16-21
Wolverine: the Best there Is 1-12
War Machine's chronology says that Secret Avengers 17 is before Hulk 42, which contradicts this.

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