Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

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Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by vanhornluke » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:58 pm

MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS #21 (Jul 1941)

Text Story:
By Stan Lee

APPEARANCES:
Toro, Human Torch, A. Dymopolis, British convoy, Nazis

SYNOPSIS:
The Torch receives a message from a Greek Minister, A Dymopolis, who asks him to help save democracy in Greece. The Torch and Toro fly to Greece and meet with him. They’re told the Nazis have some sort of superweapon in the Mediterranean that is sinking all the British shipping that is intended to help the Greeks resist the Nazis and Italians. The Torch and Toro fly over the Mediterranean and discover a buoy attached by a cable to something underwater. When a British convoy appears over the horizon, a Nazi weapons platform surfaces (triggered by sensors on the buoy) and targets it. The Torch and Toro start melting guns and torpedo launchers, but there are too many. Toro wants to melt through the hull and sink the platform, but he gets caught in a giant air suction pump. The Torch is able to melt through the hull, though, rescuing Toro and sinking the platform. A week later, they’re back in New York and decide to go to the circus.

NOTE:
There’s a gap of a week between their sinking of the Nazi weapons platform and their return to New York, so if it’s necessary a European adventure or two could be slipped into that gap.

MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS #22 (Aug 1941)

Text Story:
By Stan Lee

APPEARANCES:
Human Torch, Toro, British Army, German Army, Namor, British Navy, Luftwaffe

FLASHBACK:
The Human Torch, Toro, and Namor meet up at Dunkirk to drive off Nazi tanks and planes long enough for the British Navy to rescue their army off the beach.
SYNOPSIS:
The Torch reads a magazine article about Dunkirk and chuckles to Toro, since they both know that their involvement in that battle hasn’t become public knowledge.

NOTE:
I’m not sure where to place either the flashback or the main part of this story. Dunkirk happened “a year ago” relative to when the Torch is reading about it, placing this story around May 1941 (but I would allow for a few months of rounding in either direction). However, in the Dunkirk flashback, Namor says to the Torch, “So, Torchy, we’re going to fight side by side again, eh?” That would mean that the Torch and Namor have worked together at least once prior to Dunkirk in May 1940. However, their first team-up (rather than fight against one another) was in M/MC 17, which was published in March 1941. Can that story be moved to prior to Dunkirk? If not, does this mean in 616 there was another major incident at Dunkirk sometime after the M/MC 17 story? And if so, when, since the main part of this story would have to be placed around a year after? I’m hoping someone can figure this out. Until then, I’m not going to hazard a guess as to where to place this story in the chronologies for Torch, Toro, and Namor.

MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS #23 (Sep 1941)

Text Story:
By Stan Lee

APPEARANCES:
Vision, Law-Giver, Markham Ericsohn, murderer, Stan Lee

FLASHBACK:
The Vision is a law enforcer in his smoke world. One day a murder takes place, which is exceedingly rare. The murderer is caught and is sentenced to be exiled. At the same time, the human scientist Markham Ericsohn discovers how to travel between Earth and the smoke world. He visits with the Vision’s people and convinces them to send the Vision to Earth to check it out and perhaps do good. The first attempt to visit Earth goes wrong and the Vision ends up in Jupiter. He decides to dump the exile there and then attempt to go to Earth again. He does so and realizes he can do great good, planning to visit Earth each month.
SYNOPSIS:
In response to requests from readers, the Vision meets with Stan Lee and explains where he is from and why he visits Earth.

NOTE:
Apparently, Marvels Comics (the 616 in-universe version of Marvel) was publishing Vision stories, and somehow forwarded fan mail to the Vision.

MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS #24 (Oct 1941)

Text Story:
By Stan Lee

APPEARANCES:
Cops, Hi Smithers, Lemuel Carter, Charlie Biswell, Police Commissioner Henderson, Lt. Jackson, Deadline Dawson, Jake Walters (bts), Terry Vance

FLASHBACK 1:
Charlie Biswell, secretary to bank president Lemuel Carter, asks for a $500 dollar loan. Carter turns him down, saying that he’s short of funds.
FLASHBACK 2:
Police Commissioner Henderson tells Lt. Jackson that he’s fed up with criminals and thinks they should chase all of them out of town, even those they can’t pin anything on, like Jake Walters, who everybody knows is a bank robber even though it’s never been proven.
SYNOPSIS:
Terry Vance investigates a bank robbery. After interviewing witnesses, like the guard Hi Smithers, and getting some info from his friend, Deadline Dawson, he concludes that the bank president, Lemuel Carter, robbed the bank.


Chronologies:

BISWELL, CHARLIE
M/MC 24/TEXT-FB

CARTER, LEMUEL
M/MC 24/TEXT-FB

DAWSON, RAYMOND “DEADLINE”
……
M/MC 20/4
M/MC 21/3
M/MC 22/4
M/MC 23/6
*M/MC 24/TEXT (add)
M/MC 24/3

DYMOPOLIS, A.
M/MC 21/TEXT

ERICSOHN, MARKHAM
M/MC 23/TEXT-FB

HENDERSON, POLICE COMMISSIONER
M/MC 24/TEXT-FB

HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND
……
M/MC 20
M/MC 21
*M/MC 21/TEXT (add)
ALLWC 1
M/MC 22

JACKSON, LT.
M/MC 24/TEXT-FB

LAW-GIVER
M/MC 23/TEXT-FB

LEE, STAN/STANLEY LIEBER
*M/MC 23/TEXT (add)
MYSC 10/8
SGTF 22
SS3 -1-FB
SS3 -1
{FF 10}
……

SMITHERS, HI
M/MC 24/TEXT

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
? (see note for M/MC 22 above)

TORO/TOM RAYMOND
……
M/MC 20
M/MC 21
*M/MC 21/TEXT (add)
ALLWC 1
M/MC 22

VANCE, TERRY
……
M/MC 20/4
M/MC 21/3
M/MC 22/4
M/MC 23/6
*M/MC 24/TEXT (add)
M/MC 24/3

VISION/AARKUS
*M/MC 23/TEXT-FB (add)
M/MC 13/3
M/MC 14/4
M/MC 15/4
M/MC 16/4
……
M/MC 20/3
M/MC 21/6
M/MC 22/6
M/MC 23/4
*M/MC 23/TEXT (add)
M/MC 24/6

WALTERS, JAKE
M/MC 24/TEXT-BTS

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:36 pm

Re: #23
There is at least two or three other stories from around this time featuring the in-universe comics staff producing stories involving the heroes. There's the Carl Burgos "goodbye" issue of M/MC, and then an issue of Mystic Comics with Stanley Dee/Stan Lee. Also, of course, there are plenty of other stories where characters are reading Captain America comics. So, I wouldn't be surprised that they're also publishing Vision stories. I do wonder how they're getting mail to the guy, though...

Re: #22
Marvel Mystery Comics #7 is dated May 1940. Toro didn't start hanging out with Jim until at best between M/MC 17-18. And no, there's no way to take M/MC 17 out of order and place it earlier (Sub-Mariner had pretty tight continuity back then, as stories often continued into each other, and referenced older stories for character development), and no, there's no way to compress M/MC 7-17 to all fit in 1940 (most of the stories were referencing real world events).

Yeah, that's a head scratcher.
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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by vanhornluke » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:00 pm

So maybe the way to go is to posit that in 616 there was a second major battle at Dunkirk sometime later in 1941 that never happened here on our Earth?

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by loki » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:37 am

Col_Fury wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:36 pm
Re: #22
Marvel Mystery Comics #7 is dated May 1940. Toro didn't start hanging out with Jim until at best between M/MC 17-18. And no, there's no way to take M/MC 17 out of order and place it earlier (Sub-Mariner had pretty tight continuity back then, as stories often continued into each other, and referenced older stories for character development), and no, there's no way to compress M/MC 7-17 to all fit in 1940 (most of the stories were referencing real world events).

Yeah, that's a head scratcher.
Not fond of creating a second Dunkirk operation/battle, as vanhornluke has suggested, although that might end up being the least painful option. What specifically precludes Toro hanging out with Torch before MMC17? The dialogue about them "teaming up again" might be Toro misrecalling - or could there have been another, unseen case of them working together, prior to the first depicted example? Any reason Toro's origin story can't be set several months before his next appearance, with a Dunkirk tale in between - e.g. Torch finds Toro, but has him training for several months before being comfortable letting him accompany Torch on adventures, except in the dire need that arose with the Dunkirk situation.

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by vanhornluke » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:47 am

The problem isn't so much Torch and Toro working together, but Namor and the Torch. It's Namor who comments about working with the Torch "again," seemingly requiring this to take place after M/MC 17.

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by loki » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:03 pm

vanhornluke wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:47 am
The problem isn't so much Torch and Toro working together, but Namor and the Torch. It's Namor who comments about working with the Torch "again," seemingly requiring this to take place after M/MC 17.
Yes, sorry, I actually got that, and when I said
loki wrote: The dialogue about them "teaming up again" might be Toro misrecalling
I meant
loki wrote:The dialogue about Torch and Namor "teaming up again" might be Toro misrecalling
I think it'd be easier to ignore a line of dialogue and have this text tale being their first team up, than to create a new, second and later, Dunkirk evacuation.

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by vanhornluke » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:52 pm

I don't recall: does the story in M/MC 17 explicitly say that it's the first time Torch and Namor team up? If so, that would be ignoring lines of dialogue in multiple stories, not just one.

Edit: Oh, and another problem is that the Torch first meets Toro in Human Torch #2, but that was published Fall 1940, months after Dunkirk. Toro apparently wasn't around to have participated in the actual Dunkirk events of May 1940.

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by loki » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:49 pm

vanhornluke wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:52 pm
I don't recall: does the story in M/MC 17 explicitly say that it's the first time Torch and Namor team up? If so, that would be ignoring lines of dialogue in multiple stories, not just one.
a) I'd rather ignore a few lines of dialogue, even if it is in more than one story, than create a second Dunkirk evacuation.
b) You can get round the mention in M/MC 17 (assuming it does state that is the first team-up) by assuming they don't count Dunkirk - they may have been on the same side there, for the first time, and effectively worked alongside one another, but they didn't actively choose to do so until M/MC 17. OSLT.
vanhornluke wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:52 pm
Edit: Oh, and another problem is that the Torch first meets Toro in Human Torch #2, but that was published Fall 1940, months after Dunkirk. Toro apparently wasn't around to have participated in the actual Dunkirk events of May 1940.
See my first post again - is there any reason why that one story, the first meeting of Toro and the Torch, could not be moved earlier? I don't recall any reference to real world events that would tie it to a specific point. We'd just be saying that Torch and Toro met and had an adventure together, but that Toro then didn't get to adventure with Torch until Torch felt he was properly trained and ready, with Dunkirk being the first time Toro properly went out into the field.

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by vanhornluke » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:38 pm

Hmm. What do you think, Col_Fury?

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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:38 am

Invaders (INV) #22-FB shows the initial meeting between Jim Hammond and the Raymond family, and Saga of the Original Human Torch (SAGAHT) #2-FB pretty concretely places that meeting during Marvel Mystery Comics (M/MC) #7. Also, Toro is explicitly left with the Raymonds at this point, as his flame power was uncontrollable around Jim. Then, SAGAHT 2 says M/MC 9-10 happens after that, and soon after M/MC 10 is when the Raymond family died in a train wreck (also, it's pointed out that Jim lost track of the Raymonds and didn't have any contact with them after their initial meeting. "I was sloppy" or something to that effect, says/thinks/narrates Jim). Jim thought Toro was dead at this point until he found him in the circus (again, shown in INV 22-FB, which leads directly into Human Torch Comics #2, Toro's first appearance).

So, Jim first meets Toro during M/MC 7, which is dated May 1940. No later contact between the two until HTC 2.
The Raymonds die "soon" after M/MC 10, which is dated August 1940.
At some later point, Jim finds Toro in a circus in HTC 2, which is dated Fall 1940. It hit the stands the same month as M/MC 13, which is dated November 1940.

Between M/MC 10 and M/MC 17, the Human Torch had fairly routine stories (meaning, he stayed in the states) but the Sub-Mariner was world-hopping. Picking fights with Nazis in occupied France, stuff like that. Dunkirk isn't name-dropped in these issues, but Bill Everett was paying attention to the news and reflecting it in his Sub-Mariner stories (I mean, he has Namor going to OCCUPIED FRANCE). M/MC 13/2 specifically takes place in Nazi-controlled France, which wasn't exactly the case until after Dunkirk.

Having said all of that, M/MC 10 continues through at least M/MC 12/2 for Namor, then there's a break between M/MC 12/2-13/2, then M/MC 13/2 continues through M/MC 17 for Namor. In theory, Namor could have been at Dunkirk. If he was, it would have to be between M/MC 12/2-13/2.

So, HTC 2 and M/MC 13 hit the stands a week apart from each other (M/MC 13 a week before HTC 2). It took Jim a while to train Toro in controlling his powers around him, so I wouldn't imagine he'd be taking the kid into an active battlefield when Toro couldn't control his powers. HTC would have to be moved back to at least around M/MC 11-12, because the Raymonds die at some point AFTER M/MC 10. Then, however long it took to train Toro in using his powers. Then, Dunkirk could happen.

And of course, that's assuming M/MC 7-10 (for both Torch and Namor) can be moved/compressed enough to be before France is occupied to allow enough time for M/MC 11 (and maybe 12), then HTC 2 and the training involved, and then Dunkirk could happen. And then for some reason, Jim just doesn't take Toro with him anywhere for M/MC 12 (or 13) through M/MC 17.

While possible I suppose, that's an odd fit. However, it would also mean HTC 3 would have to be moved back as well (HTC 3 opens with Jim proclaiming that Toro has finally mastered his flame, so in theory Jim has been spending most of his time training Toro between HTC 2-3). I guess Dunkirk could theoretically happen between HTC 2-3, and that's what shows Jim that Toro's training is complete... but we'd still have several issue of M/MC where Toro's nowhere around while he can handle his powers (after participating in an active warzone). That also means HTC 3 would be placed almost (but not quite) a year out of publication order. I'd have to re-read HTC 3 to make sure that works, because Hitler, Goering and Mussolini appear there.

:thinking:
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Re: Text Stories in Marvel Mystery Comics #21-24

Post by loki » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:23 am

Col_Fury wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:38 am
then HTC 2 and the training involved, and then Dunkirk could happen. And then for some reason, Jim just doesn't take Toro with him anywhere for M/MC 12 (or 13) through M/MC 17.
Hypothesis to explain why this might be fine: Toro is training, but Torch feels he isn't ready for going out into the field. Torch and Toro head to England, because there's some anticipation of things going badly wrong for the British forces in France - Torch wants to be nearby to help, but just wants Toro close to continue the training. Dunkirk occurs, and Torch races in to help. Toro either disobeys orders by following (something the text story glosses over, because it's Toro's recollection of events) OR Torch relents and lets Toro come along because the situation at Dunkirk is so desperate - keep in mind that in the real world the rescue boats were manned by anyone and everyone, including pensioners and young boys. Either way, Toro makes his first foray on to the battlefield, something Torch accepts but isn't comfortable with. Perhaps he has a few close calls because he's not sufficiently trained yet, or perhaps he proves himself ready in terms of powers but his disobeying instructions to stay behind makes Torch feel the youth can't be trusted in a fight until he learns to do as he is told. Hence the long gap thereafter before Toro is seen with Torch again in M/MC 17.
Col_Fury wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:38 am
While possible I suppose, that's an odd fit. However, it would also mean HTC 3 would have to be moved back as well (HTC 3 opens with Jim proclaiming that Toro has finally mastered his flame, so in theory Jim has been spending most of his time training Toro between HTC 2-3).
While it might make more in-story sense for HTC 3 to happen before Dunkirk, if that is chronologically problematic, then it wouldn't need to. HTC 2 happens, and Torch takes Toro under his wing. Torch trains the boy, but the demands of his heroics means he can't devote most of his time to that - instead, it is piecemeal, with Torch giving Toro exercises to practice in his absence. Toro feels he is ready for Dunkirk, but Torch doesn't - however, Toro goes anyway. And Torch is proven right - Toro goes back to training, and eventually (HTC 3) Torch proclaims him ready.

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