Marvel Chronology Project

Somebody wrote:Leaving the specifics aside for the moment (since I can't be bothered to pull out all these issues AGAIN in short order - I'll just say that, yeah, I saw the end of UX 244, but I'm prepared to say that Maddie made a habit of knocking herself out...), and just going for the thing Russ just brought up (which I knew about, but...)

Russ Chappell wrote:

Michael wrote:Is there any reason the issues can't take place shortly after Logan's appearances in X-Men 243 and X-Factor 39?

Um, yes, there is a reason. Marvel (via the most recent Official Index) says that they take place somewhere else.

You have to show that the Index MUST be wrong.

Thing is though, that's both a very, very high standard of proof and ever so-slightly arbitrary - I can go beat-by-beat through W2 7 and show there's no significant gap there (and ESPECIALLY not between pages 14 and 15, where the gap in the Wolverine scenes is apparently, implicitly, taken).

It seems quite simple to me. I still don't understand why it is problematic. Page 14 is the last time in the issue that we see the Psylocke armor. Page 15 is, as I recall, the first time in the issue wherein *anyone* in the Wolverine scenes mentions that Mr. Fixit is on his way. Where else would the gap go?

Somebody, can you show where someone says that the scene in Karma's hotel room takes place immediately after the scene set in the Prince's palace? Not a single temporal reference contradicts the notion that a time-gap can be placed there. And, in fact, the one relevant temporal reference -- that the events of issue 5 occurred "last month" in relation to issue 8 -- actually SUPPORTS the notion of a time-gap.

What supports the lack of a gap?

1.) The Hulk scenes. Hence, re-order the pages so that the Hulk scenes all take place on the latter part of the gap. Done.

2.) On page 15, Coy is bitching about the Prince's decision made in the first half of the issue. To me, not strange at all. I don't see it as ridiculous that Coy would STILL be angry about the Prince's decision a week or a month later.

3.) And Karma is reflecting on the events, saying, "It's fortunate that Uncle was too upset to question my presence at the palace, or why I was dressed so scandalously." So my solution is basically asking us to believe that Karma would still be going over the events of a month ago in her head. Is this really that strange? For a CLAREMONT character? How many times in her life has Storm reminded herself that she's a claustrophobe?

Despite all of this, Somebody, you actually were doing a good job of making me feel silly until you suggested YOUR alternrate idea. Punching a hole in issue 232, on the basis that "Madelyne must just have a habit of falling unconscious"? I know you're being tongue-in-cheek a bit, but ... REALLY? And as if that weren't enough, your solution also requires reading Uncanny X-Men Annual #12 as if Psylocke is not wearing the armor that she is drawn wearing. This despite that Uncanny X-Men #12 sees Psylocke being used as a baseball by a giant robot!

(BTW, just for laughs, I did a quick check of W2 #7 to see if there is even a "Meanwhile" caption connecting any of the Wolverine scenes with any of the Hulk ones. There is not. Personally, I think the word "meanwhile" is easier to ignore than the armor in X-Men Annual #12, but as it turns out, it's a non-issue. NOT EVEN THE TEXT OF WOLVERINE #7 STATES EXPLICITLY THAT THE HULK SCENES ARE HAPPENING SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE WOLVERINE SCENES.)

So one side we have:

The Doot Solution: Read Karma's word balloon as if she is thinking about the events of weeks ago, rather than earlier that same day.

On the other side:

The Somebody Solution: Ignore Psylocke's armor in Uncanny X-Men Annual #12, and come up with a justification for her surviving being hint with a giant steel rod by a giant robot and flying miles on the air and landing on solid ground. (Presumably Rogue -- hit at the same time -- absorbed the impact? Both of Terminus' giant stick AND of hitting the ground?) ALSO -- instead of Madelyne smashing a computer panel and falling unconscious all in one unbroken sequence, we must read X-Men 232 as if Madelyne fell unconscious once before the events of X-Men Annual #12, then she fell unconscious AGAIN at some later date, for a reason that we were not shown. Oh, and she happened to be wearing the same dress both times. And since we see the smashed computer panel in those later sequences of Madelyne unconscious, this means that the second time she fell unconscious, it was also right by that same broken computer panel (that the X-Men never fixed, apparently -- or she smashed a second terminal, I guess?)

How elegant. It is clearly only because of the Marvel Index that your solution is meeting with resistance.

Somebody, do you genuinely believe your solution is less complicated, or do you just like it better because it is yours ?

Or we could just assume that this was a replacement for the armor damaged in X-Men 243, which doesn't involve splitting either of the issues up. Is there any reason, aside from the Index, that this doesn't work?

Michael wrote:Or we could just assume that this was a replacement for the armor damaged in X-Men 243, which doesn't involve splitting either of the issues up. Is there any reason, aside from the Index, that this doesn't work?

Well, it would mean that Wolverine #10 takes place post-"Inferno." That creates another question related to a knot that kind of bugs me.

In Wolverine #10, it is Logan's birthday. Logan is all wound up and paranoid because he knows that Sabretooth always stalks him on this day. At one point, he goes to the Madripoor chief of police, who says, "I have looked through both official channels and back-channels. Everything I could find tells me that the man you asked me about is dead." This "man" is never identified explicitly, but the story intends for it to be Sabretooth. So, then, finally, at the end, Wolverine is attacked by these two guys, a guy named Daryl, and another guy named Daryl. Sabretooth saves him, kills the Daryls, and leaves the bodies in the Princess Bar for Logan to find. There is a note from Sabretooth saying, "Nobody kills you, but me. Especially today." Wolverine can tell by the nature of the Daryls' wounds that it is Sabretooth's handiwork.

So, at the beginning of the story, Sabretooth's official status is "dead." Logan seems a bit unsure whether to believe that. But by the end, he *knows* Sabretooth is alive. And even though this is still during the "X-Men are believed to be dead" era, Sabretooth obviously knows that Logan is alive.

Now:

In "Inferno," the X-Men attack the Marauders and take them down. The Marauders are surprised, asking, "Aren't the X-Men supposed to be dead?" (Sabretooth in specific never seems confused, mind you, but the other Marauders do.) Simultaneously, Maddie shows up at Mr. Sinister's base, and Sinister is surprised to see that Madelyne is alive. So clearly at this point, both Sinister and the Marauders still believed the X-Men to be dead. This suggests a placement before Wolverine #10. Then at the end of "Inferno," Wolverine kills Sabretooth, seemingly. Dazzler says that he must be dead, and Wolverine says, "I'm not sure ..." This all jives with placing "Inferno" before Wolverine #10.

BUT in X-Men #251, Wolverine has a hallucinated conversation with Sabretooth, and during this conversation, we get the sense that Logan still believes that Sabretooth is dead, but again, isn't sure. But, if Wolverine #10 takes place before this issue, that makes no sense. Logan KNOWS Sabre is alive, because of the Daryls' bodies.

Can Wolverine #10 be placed AFTER Uncanny #251? If so, this would put Wolverine #10 way out of sequence with the rest of W2. (I don't think it can be done ...)

The other option is to place Wolverine #10 BEFORE "Inferno," in which case it means that Sabretooth figured out that Wolverine was still alive before Sinister or the Marauders did, and just didn't tell any of them. (This is the explanation I prefer. Sabretooth always seemed adversarial toward the other Marauders, and he was humiliated by Sinister in UX 221. I like the idea that he withholds the information that the X-Men are alive as a tit-for-tat for Sinister's dressing him down earlier.)

Does the above make any sense at all? (I get the impression sometimes, based on replies to some of my posts, that I am not as clear with this stuff as I think I am being.)

Yeah, but Wolverine's appearances in issues 7-8 HAVE to take place after Inferno. Here's why:

The Hulk's appearance in Avengers Annual 17 takes place before the spell that prevents him from reverting to Banner wears off. The problem is this: in X-Factor 34, Jean and Scott are ready to go from New York to Nebraska to rescue Nathan from Sinister. Hank can't join them since he's off helping the Avengers against the Evolutionary in Avengers Annual 17. In X-Factor 35, the Marauders aren't around to stop Scott and Jean from getting to Nathan because N'astirh lured them into a fight with the X-Men in X-Men 240. But since the Hulk's appearances in Wolverine 7-8 take place after the spell wore off, Wolverine 7-8 would have to take place after Avengers Annual 17. So according to Somebody's chronology, X-Men 232-239 take place during Scott and Jean's trip to Nebraska. According to your chronology, X-Men 235-239 take place during Scott and Jean's trip to Nebraska. According to Somebody, the X-Men fought the Brood while Maddie was turned into the Goblin Queen, Maddie went to do some charity work, she gets kidnapped by the Genoshans during it, the X-Men try to stop the Genoshans from kidnapping a baby during which Rogue and Logan are captured, Rogue and Logan escape and are recaptured, the X-Men rescue Rogue,Logan and Maddie and Maddie seduces Alex all while Scott and Jean are going to rescue Nathan. According to you, Maddie went to do some charity work, she gets kidnapped by the Genoshans during it, the X-Men try to stop the Genoshans from kidnapping a baby during which Rogue and Logan are captured, Rogue and Logan escape and are recaptured, the X-Men rescue Rogue,Logan and Maddie and Maddie seduces Alex all while Scott and Jean are going to rescue Nathan. Scott and Jean must have really taken their time going to rescue Nathan. I guess they decided to do some sightseeing, and have a romantic dinner and a passionate night of lovemaking before saving Nathan.

Seriously, Simonson obviously intended X-Men 240 to take place less than twelve hours after the Evolutionary War. And Wolverine's thinking Sabretooth dead in Wolverine 10 makes no sense unless it takes place after Inferno because their previous encounter before Inferno ended inconclusively. (Yes,Creed was stabbed but he gets stabbed or shot in 90% of his appearances.) As for the hallucination, Wolverine clearly wasn't thinking straight at this point, having been tortured for hours. I wouldn't take anything the hallucination says too seriously.

I just thought of another reason why Logan might think Sabretooth is dead in X-Men 251. In the Assassin Nation plot in Amazing Spider-Man, Sabretooth gets into a fight with Captain America and Silver Sable and is believed to be dead at the end of that fight. It's possible Logan heard about that fight before X-Men 251.

Michael, I didn't really follow that wall of text two posts up.

That said, Wolverine #7-10 were published *after* Inferno ended in Uncanny #243. It seems really odd to me that they'd have this "armor" subplot going, placing them back before #232 -- A FULL YEAR out of sequence! And yet there it is, and both books were written by Claremont.

I wonder if Claremont WAS going for the "it's a replacement armor" theory?

-Jeph!

Ocean Doot wrote:Somebody, do you genuinely believe your solution is less complicated, or do you just like it better because it is yours ?

Short version? I'm looking for any solution that doesn't involve reordering pages within an issue - doubly so since W2 7 is so clearly intended to take place over a single night-into-early-morning (So, Coy makes a habit of THROWING FURNITURE AROUND, huh? That whole scene, including the Karma stuff, only works if it's within half an hour of Coy leaving the palace.). That's why I've thrown out three or four suggestions thus far, and rejected several others before I got to the stage of posting them.

And yes - especially after Jeph pointed out that it's basically in-line with publication order - I'm at least provisionally inclined to follow Michael's suggestion - albeit with the significant caveats that I haven't found my copy of Inferno yet, and don't have the ASM issue.

Somebody wrote:

Ocean Doot wrote:Somebody, do you genuinely believe your solution is less complicated, or do you just like it better because it is yours ?

Short version? I'm looking for any solution that doesn't involve reordering pages within an issue - doubly so since W2 7 is so clearly intended to take place over a single night-into-early-morning (So, Coy makes a habit of THROWING FURNITURE AROUND, huh?

A "habit"? Nope. Not saying that at all. One time does not a habit make. I am saying that that time he threw the furniture happened a month after the events in the first half of the issue.

Your sarcasm would be more effective if your alternate theory didn't suggest that Madelyne makes a habit of smashing computer terminals and thereafter falling to the floor, unconscious and bleeding.

Perhaps it should be discussed exactly what Coy is angry about. He wanted to be the crimelord of Madripoor, and took great pains to oust Jessan Hoan from that position. He thought the Prince had his back. Instead, the Prince decides he's going to split their duties, and make Coy and Jessan co-crimelords of Madripoor. Cut to: Coy throwing furniture, saying, "How DARE he?"

Now in my mind, if we put a month-long gap in between the Prince's decision and Coy's reaction, we might say, Hmm, well, maybe a month down the line, Coy had his eye on some lucrative deal to be made, but then Jessan got to it first. This reminds Coy of how limited his position is because of the Prince's choice, and he gets angry all over again. And throws furniture. (As if it would be so ridiculous if it WERE a habit. At least he's not braining himself and falling unconscious each time.)

Anyhoo. This has been a most enjoyable debate, Somebody. As far as yours and my argument goes, it obviously comes down to which is less of a concern -- to me, re-ordering pages that don't change any individual character's chronology is no big deal. Nor is the idea that Coy could get angry on a regular basis. (Villains getting angry about the same thing over and over? Absurd! Remember that ONE AND ONLY TIME that Dr. Doom got riled up thinking about Reed Richards?)

That all seems less problematic than your wanting to split Madelyne's experience into two separate incidents, and I also hate the idea of ignoring Psylocke's armor in X-Men Annual #12. (I keep bringing up the question of how she survived two massively devastating impacts and I do not believe you've addressed it yet. Every time you ignore it, I get so mad that I throw a chair! )

But, I guess it's really down to differing priorities. There's probably no point in arguing it too much more -- especially if people are leaning toward the "replacement armor" theory anyway.

(Hey, what about this? What if X-Men Annual #12 takes place AFTER the end of the Evolutionary War? Obviously that was not the intent, but does it hurt anything? Is that too crazy???)

The main reason I jumped in was because I felt like my point of view was being unfairly dismissed as the dilettantish work of someone who didn't bother to read all the way to the end of Wolverine #8! Now I feel like I've made my case and made it well. I will continue to follow the thread with interest, but as far as continuing to argue my side goes, I'm all out.

Thanks for the debate, Somebody. As always, it was a pleasure!

(Now I gotta go check and see where we're at in that "X-Men Forever" discussion ...)

Ocean Doot wrote: (Hey, what about this? What if X-Men Annual #12 takes place AFTER the end of the Evolutionary War? Obviously that was not the intent, but does it hurt anything? Is that too crazy???)

Are you being sarcastic? No, it doesn't work. The restored Savage Land next appears in West Coast Avengers Annual 3, which is also part of the Evolutionary Wars. Also, the High Evolutionary is trapped in the Black Galaxy after the Evolutionary Wars until Thor 408,which is after Inferno. Maddie appears in X-Men Annual 12- she'd be dead if it took place after Inferno.

jephyork wrote:Michael, I didn't really follow that wall of text two posts up.

That said, Wolverine #7-10 were published *after* Inferno ended in Uncanny #243. It seems really odd to me that they'd have this "armor" subplot going, placing them back before #232 -- A FULL YEAR out of sequence! And yet there it is, and both books were written by Claremont.

I wonder if Claremont WAS going for the "it's a replacement armor" theory?

-Jeph!

The very nature of the Wolverine series, having to weave his appearances there between his appearances in Uncanny X-Men, you're going to get storylines that take longer than to finish which push issues back and forward from their publication dates in relation to each other. I'm sure there are many instances in of this in Spider-Man's chrono for example when he had 4 books ongoing at the same time.

If you think this is bad, I'm still trying to figure out how to fit Storm's appearance in the conclusion of Atlantis Attacks before she is turned into a preteen by Nanny while maintaining the New Mutants appearance there after the Asgard storyline and X-Factor after their Judgment War storyline. I thought I'd figured it out but I recently spotted a reference by Freedom Force to Destiny's death when Rusty & Skids are captured before the rest of the New Mutants return from Asgard may throw a wrench in the works. Anyway, off topic. Separating the Hulk bits and moving them forward may be the only solution.

The very nature of the Wolverine series, having to weave his appearances there between his appearances in Uncanny X-Men, you're going to get storylines that take longer than to finish which push issues back and forward from their publication dates in relation to each other.

Right -- I know -- but the Wolverine series was LAUNCHED the same month that Uncanny #237 came out. Psylocke had already had the armor for six issues by this point. Why Claremont thought he would START writing the story of the armor's origin at that point baffles me -- and makes me wonder if we're misreading it.

Then again: the reason we've come up with for Psylocke to need "replacement armor" was because her suit got "demonized" in Inferno, right? Along with the rest of the X-Men's costumes, hair, Wolvie's face and claws, the "black star" around Longshot's eye, etc.? It was pointed out in-book that none of the changes went away once N'astirh's spell was broken in Uncanny #242 ... and that's why we've been thinking that maybe she needed a new set of armor.

However ... in #244-245, it looks like everything's back to normal. Rogue and Storm's hair, Wolvie's claws, everyone's costumes, Longshot's luck powers ... all normal. So, looking at the bigger picture, it appears that although the Inferno changes didn't *immediately* vanish -- it looks like they faded away shortly afterwards. Which would invalidate the need for Psylocke to get new armor.

So, approaching this from the other angle: let's say Claremont DID intend for his Wolvie story to be set in the past relative to Uncanny, and tell the story of the armor. It can't go where we currently have it, because the Hulk's under a spell of some sort, and we're having trouble placing it after the Hulk's spell wears off -- but what about BEFORE?

When did the Hulk get this spell put on him? And, can Wolvie #7 fit beforehand?

-Jeph!

jephyork wrote:When did the Hulk get this spell put on him? And, can Wolvie #7 fit beforehand?

No. The story's told in FB over H2 351-352, and explains how the Hulk didn't die in H2 345 when the Leader set off a gamma bomb (he was teleported to Jarella's World, and did some stuff in return for them "permanently" suppressing Banner).

346 didn't feature the Hulk, and he showed up in 347 (quite some time after 345) working as an enforcer in Las Vegas called "Joe Fixit", in which the spell suppressing Banner abruptly weakens and sunlight starts giving him trouble as a result. In 352, the spell finally gives out, and he turns back to Banner in his (daytime) sleep.

353 then has Banner waking up to deal with having been "bottled up" for three whole months, and that the g-bomb had actually gone off. 354 then resolves some loose ends from 353.

I'm actually slightly curious as to why a bunch of issues (including W2 7) are piled between 355 and 356, rather than 354 and 355, come to think of it (at first glance, the earlier point seems more logical - 355 starts the Glorian-wrecking-his-life plot in earnest, and his actions in 356 are explicitly a reaction to Glorian's actions in 355. Nothing continues from 354 into 355), but it's not getting pulled back earlier than that, because you need Hulk-as-Fixit, and Banner-day/Hulk-night.

Okay, so Fixit *started out* with the no-Banner spell. Thanks.

I think the whole "put UXM Annual #12 before/during UXM #232" idea has been pretty well debunked, which tends to leave us with two options: punch a hole in Wolvie #7, or assume replacement armor.

Arguments for replacement armor: why was Claremont telling the armor origin story eight full months after it was too late anyway?

Arguments against replacement armor: all the other Inferno changes went away by #244-245 ... right?

-Jeph!

Yeah, but while the armor was transformed, it was damaged by Sabretooth. It's possible that the armor went back to normal but the damage Sabretooth did remained.

Another possibility- do we know that the X-Men's costumes went back to normal? It's possible the X-Men just burned them and made new costumes.

Yes, we can assume that the X-Men were all forced to get new costumes (and comb their hair) -- but we don't have any in-book evidence that they did that (do we)?

I'm starting to think that it was Claremont's intent to tell the armor's origin story in the Wolverine arc -- and therefore have the Wolvie issues set in the past -- even though he screwed up and used the Fixit/Banner status quo from the time the book was published. And "author intent" carries a lot of weight with me...

-Jeph!