It's a longshot

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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robfj
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It's a longshot

Post by robfj » Mon May 02, 2016 4:57 pm

While investigating the problem with FF#285 and SECWARSII#6 I ran across a couple of other clashes, this time around SECWARSII#5 and both to do with the Longshot limited series.

The 1st 1 also involves DS2#75.

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
....
DS2 74
VIS&SCRW2 4
DS2 75 **
SECWARSII 5
LSHOT 5 **
LSHOT 6 **
VIS&SCRW2 6
PPSSM 115
AF 36
M/FAN 41
VIS&SCRW2 11
PPSSM 117
VIS&SCRW2 12
M/FAN 31/2
M/GN:DS
DSSS@ 3/3
DS2 76
....

WONG II
....
DS2 74
LSHOT 5 **
LSHOT 6 **
DS2 75 **
M/FAN 41-BTS
PPSSM 115
VIS&SCRW2 12
DS2 76
....

WOLFE, SARA
....
DS2 74
LSHOT 6 **
DS2 75 **
DSSS@ 3/3
DS2 76
....

Sara Wolfe and Wong disagree with Dr Strange about the order of LSHOT#5-6 and DS2#75.

There are no particular clues in the Longshot issues to place them, apart from the presence of Sara Wolfe which locates them in a fairly long section of DS2. DrS is the main guy in his own mag so the obvious solution would be to change Sara and Wong's chronologies to match his.


However the only solid link is having the Secret Wars tie-in DS2#74 before SECWARSII#5. Strictly speaking it's before DrS's appearance there in the final pages fighting the Beyonder alongside the Avengers and the FF. More significantly it's in the Beyonder's period of depression *after* most of SECWARSII#5:-

BEYONDER
....
SECWARSII 5 (1 - 22)
TG 30
DS2 74
SECWARSII 5 (23)
....

There are few other links that position the LSHOT series this closely.

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
....
SECWARSII 5
LSHOT 4
....

puts an earlier issue after the last bit of SECWARSII#5.

The combination of

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT
....
SECWARSII 5
UX 199
....

and

SPIRAL/RITA WAYWORD
....
{UX 199}
LSHOT 3
LSHOT 4
LSHOT 5
LSHOT 6
....

at least has the LSHOT issues after the earlier bulk of SECWARSII#5, but that doesn't discriminate between Doc and his companion's positions.


I have another suggestion. DS2#75 isn't strongly linked to #74. It continues a domestic subplot, but I would contend #75 has *more* of a direct connection to #76 where DrS investigates the mystery of Topaz who he rescued in #75. So I propose moving DS2#75 slightly. I could argue moving it very close to #76, but I'll content myself with moving it far enough to solve the current problem:-

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
....
DS2 74
VIS&SCRW2 4
SECWARSII 5
LSHOT 5
LSHOT 6
DS2 75 moved from before SECWARSII 5
VIS&SCRW2 6
PPSSM 115
AF 36
M/FAN 41
VIS&SCRW2 11
PPSSM 117
VIS&SCRW2 12
M/FAN 31/2
M/GN:DS
DSSS@ 3/3
DS2 76
....

As I mentioned the Longshot issues aren't particular where they fit with DS2#75. And DS2#74 is the only issue that connects to SECWARSII#5. (VIS&SCRW2#4 is just a cameo where DrS gives pregnant Wanda a medical exam before referring her to a more conventional colleague.)




Eagle-eyed readers may have noticed another clash in the chronologies:-

DOCTOR STRANGE II/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
....
LSHOT 6
VIS&SCRW2 6
PPSSM 115 **
AF 36
M/FAN 41 **
VIS&SCRW2 11
PPSSM 117
VIS&SCRW2 12
....

WONG II
....
LSHOT 6
DS2 75
M/FAN 41-BTS **
PPSSM 115 **
VIS&SCRW2 12
....

There's a disagreement about the order of M/FAN#41 and PPSSM#115.

M/FAN#41 *only* has DrS and Wong (who is BTS because he's asleep). DrS falls foul of a nameless dreaming god. This is 1 of those Fanfare tales with no particular chronological clues, which has been inserted a couple of years before it was published. 1 panel of sleeping Wong certainly can be placed anywhen. So I'd just change his listing to fit:-

WONG II
....
LSHOT 6
DS2 75
PPSSM 115
M/FAN 41-BTS moved from before PPSSM 115
VIS&SCRW2 12
....




That wasn't the 2nd problem with the Longshot series. But I'll save that for another thread because it's quite separate.

robfj
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Re: It's a longshot

Post by robfj » Wed May 04, 2016 6:29 am

I've decided to add the 2nd Longshot problem to the same thread.

This 1 involves Cloak & Dagger, but indirectly.

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
....
SECWARSII 5
LSHOT 4
FF 285
....

and

BEYONDER
....
SECWARSII 5 (23)
SECWARSII 6
FF 285
CAD2 4
....

establishes that LSHOT#4 precedes CAD2#4.
Note that my proposed reversing the order of SECWARSII#6 and FF#285 for Beyonder in Secret Wars II #6 and Fantastic Four #285 doesn't change this conclusion.

Also

ENERGIZER/KATIE POWER (and the rest of Power Pack)
....
SECWARSII 6
M/GN:CAD/PP
....

CLOAK/TYRONE JOHNSON (and Dagger)
....
M/GN:CAD/PP
CAD2 1
CAD2 2
CAD2 3
CAD2 4
....

show that CAD2#3 is also after SECWARSII#6.


Now for the problem:-

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
....
PPSSM@ 5
ASM@ 19
CAD2 3
WOSM 8
WOSM 9
LSHOT 3
LSHOT 4
WOSM@ 1
ASM 271
....

has CAD2#3 *before* LSHOT#4.

Note that my reversal mentioned above actually makes this problem airtight. Putting FF#285 before SECWARSII#6 gives a combined sequence:-
LSHOT 4
FF 285
SECWARSII 6
M/GN:CAD/PP
CAD2 1
CAD2 2
CAD2 3
CAD2 4
with LSHOT#4 absolutely before CAD2#3, and a complete clash with Spider-Man.

But note that in the existing chronologies She-Hulk/(original)Beyonder only insist that LSHOT#4 is before CAD2#4 while Spider-Man only wants LSHOT#4 after *CAD2#3*.

So if instead we leave FF#285 after SECWARSII#6 then
SECWARSII 6
M/GN:CAD/PP
CAD2 1
CAD2 2
CAD2 3
LSHOT 4
FF 285
CAD2 4
can also fit the bill, satisfying the existing chronologies above of She-Hulk, Beyonder, Power Pack and Cloak & Dagger.

Now we have CAD2#3 before LSHOT#4 so we can interpolate Spider-Man apps:-
SECWARSII 6
M/GN:CAD/PP
CAD2 1
CAD2 2
CAD2 3
WOSM 8 **
WOSM 9 **
LSHOT 3 **
LSHOT 4
FF 285
CAD2 4
and everybody's happy!

I repeat that this clashes with my proposal in Secret Wars II #6 and Fantastic Four #285 and with the chronologies that were affected by that, but I'm open-minded and want to see if there's any other reason to reject this option.

The main reason is that CAD2#4 follows directly from #3. The duo are trying to stop a drug shipment and in #3 they find a church is involved. In #4 they take that information to a priest they are staying with, and Beyonder gets involved in their mission.

I can't find anybody else that cares that much about exactly where Longshot and Cloak&Dagger issues go. Spiral brings in UX#199, but the nearest relevant connections that evokes is for Wolverine who needs that (and other things) to happen between the 1st (main) part of SECWARSII#5 and Power Pack #19, both of which involve Beyonder.


However there is a way of having the cake and eating it. There's nothing in She-Hulk's app in LSHOT#4 to place it. (It doesn't even say she's a member of the FF.) So I could retain my change from the other thread to put FF#285 between SECWARSII#5 and SECWARSII#6 for Beyonder, and just move LSHOT#4 to after FF#285 for She-Hulk. This allows the Spidey sequence to happen without splitting CAD2 up.

Ie

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
....
SECWARSII 5
FF 285 ** moved from after LSHOT 4
LSHOT 4
....

combined with either version of Beyonder's chronology

BEYONDER (existing)
....
SECWARSII 5 (23)
SECWARSII 6
FF 285
CAD2 4
....

or

BEYONDER (after my change in the other thread)
....
SECWARSII 5 (23)
FF 285
SECWARSII 6
CAD2 4
....

allows a combined chronology
SECWARSII 6
M/GN:CAD/PP
CAD2 1
CAD2 2
CAD2 3
CAD2 4
WOSM 8
WOSM 9
LSHOT 3
LSHOT 4
without violating anybody's chronological rights.



So that's my proposal - a simple change to She-Hulk.

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