Marvel Chronology Project

Rise of the Black Panther doesn't look like it can be E-616 canon. It heavily references Captain America/Black Panther: Flags of Our Fathers, which in itself can't be canon.. or can it?

Is it possible that the events of Captain America/Black Panther: Flags of Our Fathers could be placed between Captain America Comics #1 and #2 without creating too many mind-bending anomolies? Steve could return from Wakanda with the lump of Vibranium alloy, which finds its way into the hands of Myron MacLain, who experiments with it. When presented with the new shield by FDR, Steve could have chosen not to mention his part in the retrieval of the Vibranium, in his usual modest manner of the time, and so as not to embarrass FDR, who may not have known of his involvement.

Captain America Comics #1 takes place in March 1941.

The Howling Commandos were formed as a result of/reaction to the attack on Pearl Harbor (December 1941), and weren't active until a little later in early 1942.

Sgt. Fury & his Howling Commandos appear in Flags of Our Fathers, so at the earliest it has to happen at some point in 1942, a year after Cap gets his new shield (made from a vibranium alloy compound, from Wakanda, as detailed in BP3 30-FB) between Captain America Comics #1-2. And no, Cap Comics #1-whatever can't be moved a year later into 1942; too many other comics refer to and reinforce the ***1941 pre-American war involvement setting***.

So no, Flags of Our Fathers can't be Earth-616 canon.

I haven't read Rise of the Black Panther yet, but could it be referring to BP3 30 instead of Flags of Our Fathers?

Flags of Our Father is basically an expansion on/fleshing out of BP3 30-FB anyway, just with added Howling Commandos.

Flags of Our Father is basically an expansion on/fleshing out of BP3 30-FB anyway, just with added Howling Commandos.

Plus Baron Von Strucker, Red Skull, Warrior Woman, and others. Also in Flags, T'Chaka's father is named Azzuri, and is the Black Panther whom Cap deals with. In BP3 30 flashback, Cap is dealing with T'Chaka himself.

In Rise of the Black Panther #1, although Fury and the Howlers are not specifically mentioned, scenes show Von Strucker and Warrior Woman, Cap is dealing with Azzuri, and T'Chaka is a child, as in Flags, which is cited in a footnote reference. Azzuri is also mentioned in several issues of the current Black Panther series, making me wonder if this series is even canon, although Azzuri could be an alternate name for Chanda. To add to the confusion, marvel.wikia.com has separate listings for both Azzuri and Chanda, listing them both as E-616, and both as father of T'Chaka and husband of Nanali, while listing both Azzuri and Chanda as among the ancestors shown in issue 14 of the current Black Panther series. Not that they are mentioned by name in the text, however. I'm assuming people with better eyes than mine can differentiate between them on the page.

I'm personally leaning towards none of this being cannon..

Thanks!

Yeah, if Warrior Woman is in Rise of the Black Panther #1 it can't be canon. Like the Howlers, she wasn't active until after Pearl Harbor. Heck, she gained her powers and became Warrior Woman in an issue of the Invaders (#17) which takes place in early 1942. Obviously, Cap already had his new shield for a long time by this point.

That's unfortunate.

It gets worse- in Rise of the Black Panther 2, Namor is wearing his blue and yellow costume but this issue takes place before T'Challa met the FF.
Re: Azarri and Chanda- blame Roy Thomas. In Kirby's Black Panther series, the Panther's paternal grandfather was named Azarri but in Fantastic Four Unlimited 1, Roy called him Chanda.

Unless they specifically say it's his anti-toxin suit I'm not too concerned with Namor's clothes, personally. There have been other flashback/implants that have him wearing it before he was supposed to, and we waved it away by saying the anti-pollution suit was designed to look like some Atlantean clothes Namor already had (or something like that).

I never realized there was a discrepancy in T'Challa's grandfather's name. Huh. Maybe one's a nickname like StrayLamb suggests? Or maybe this is another case of inserting another generation between WWII and the current-day characters (by using an existing discrepancy). Azzari (or Chanda) would still be T'Challa's grandfather, just a great one.

Or, maybe "Chanda" is a title or honorific or something.

Also, this has nothing to do with anything, but I remember stumbling across a letters page (in Jungle Action, I think) that says the T in T'Challa is silent (pronounced "Chal-La"). But in the movies, they say the T (pronounced "Tuh-Chal-La"). I'll have to see if I can find that again...

It's in a panel of Jungle Action #19! https://allofthemarvels.tumblr.com/post ... challa-two

Best birthday surprise ever. You're the man, Clive!

Clive_Reston wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:14 am It's in a panel of Jungle Action #19! https://allofthemarvels.tumblr.com/post ... challa-two

But...if the T is silent, and Kevin literally only just heard T'Challa say his name (and didn't know how it was spelled to begin with?) then how come he thought there was a T there to be pronounced in the first place?

Because earlier that issue, Kevin had heard Monica Lynne use T'Challa's name, and i guess she must have pronounced the T'..

StrayLamb wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:25 am Because earlier that issue, Kevin had heard Monica Lynne use T'Challa's name, and i guess she must have pronounced the T'..

Okay, even with that:
1) T'Challa literally just said the name to him.
2) If anyone outside of Wakanda would pronounce it correctly, Monica would.

My take would be that the T isn't silent, but that the way it is pronounced with a Wakandan accent means most non-Wakandans pronounce it incorrectly, and it's easier to ask them to just not pronounce it than get them to try and say it correctly. I've seen plenty of examples of this in real life, where the majority of people not experienced in a given language not only mispronounce some words, but can't seem to hear the difference between their mispronounciation and the native speaker saying the word correctly.

So it's possible the Wakandans themselves are heavy on the CH sound and pronounce it TCH without realizing it, and to a western ear, that sounds like the T is pronounced. So even when T'Challa is saying "Challa, no T, Kevin", Kevin is still hearing it as TCHalla. Hence his asking, "Ta-Challa?"

StrayLamb wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:37 pm So it's possible the Wakandans themselves are heavy on the CH sound and pronounce it TCH without realizing it, and to a western ear, that sounds like the T is pronounced. So even when T'Challa is saying "Challa, no T, Kevin", Kevin is still hearing it as TCHalla. Hence his asking, "Ta-Challa?"

That's my thinking. Per a BBC documentary I saw many years ago, which followed a study about human brains develop to process sensory information, as early as within the first year of life our brains start tuning into the sounds we hear around us regularly, at the cost of losing some of the ability to hear frequencies that aren't commonly encountered. What this means in terms of language is that many individuals literally can't hear the subtle inflections and tones present in foreign and rarely heard tongues. It can be relearned, and people who are linguists tend to be better at hearing the distinctions.

The other thought that just occured - presumably T'Challa is an anglicised spelling of his name. I doubt isolationist Wakanda would be using the same alphabet as Western Europeans. They'd have developed their own.

loki wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:56 am My take would be that the T isn't silent, but that the way it is pronounced with a Wakandan accent means most non-Wakandans pronounce it incorrectly, and it's easier to ask them to just not pronounce it than get them to try and say it correctly. I've seen plenty of examples of this in real life, where the majority of people not experienced in a given language not only mispronounce some words, but can't seem to hear the difference between their mispronounciation and the native speaker saying the word correctly.

Col_Fury wrote:But in the movies, they say the T (pronounced "Tuh-Chal-La").

So, perhaps the T is silent in the movies, and we only THINK we're hearing it. Audiences in Wakanda are probably watching the movies, and not hearing the T.

Russ Chappell wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:08 am

loki wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:56 am My take would be that the T isn't silent, but that the way it is pronounced with a Wakandan accent means most non-Wakandans pronounce it incorrectly, and it's easier to ask them to just not pronounce it than get them to try and say it correctly. I've seen plenty of examples of this in real life, where the majority of people not experienced in a given language not only mispronounce some words, but can't seem to hear the difference between their mispronounciation and the native speaker saying the word correctly.

Col_Fury wrote:But in the movies, they say the T (pronounced "Tuh-Chal-La").

So, perhaps the T is silent in the movies, and we only THINK we're hearing it. Audiences in Wakanda are probably watching the movies, and not hearing the T.