Warlock: Rebirth
Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:45 pm
Ron Marz' 2nd retro mini-series Warlock: Rebirth causes a problem for the chronology I've created for his Silver Surfer: Rebirth mini (SSR) which I've placed between SS3@7 and IH2#417-418. That problem is the presence of Dr Strange. I'm going to have to deal with that before I can add WLR (as I shall call the 2nd series) itself.
These are the amended chronologies for SS and Thanos from my Silver Surfer Rebirth thread. I've extended them backwards a bit for reasons that will become clear.
THANOS
----
SECDEF 11-13
CP 1-6
SSR 1-5
SS3 98
----
SILVER SURFER
----
SECDEF 14 (an epilogue to Thanos' #11-13)
IH2 414-416
SS@ 7
M/CP 172/3
M/CP 173
M/CP 174/3
M/CP 175/2
CLAN 1-3
SSR 1-5
IH2 417-418
SS3 93
----
WLR is specifically set after SSR. In SSR Silver Surfer suggests to Legacy that if he wants to know more about his father Captain Marvel he should visit his adopted home Earth. In WLR#1 he arrives on Monster Island looking for Adam Warlock and repeating the Surfer's advice (with an editorial caption referencing SSR#5).
Dr Strange gets involved in WLR#2-5 in non-astral form with his classic appearance. Ron has presumably forgotten that during much of this period Doc was confined to a pocket dimension and could only appear on Earth in astral form. Moreover he now sported close-shaven hair and a stubbly beard plus was without his Cloak Of Levitation, and his astral form mirrored that. He appears that way in IH2#414, and Surfer has IH2#414-416 before SS3@7. This suggests that WLR can't be *before* Strange gets in that situation in DSSS#61. Legacy and some of the Infinity Watch also visit Strange in his Sanctum Sanctorum, but that has been destroyed in the same event which banished Doc to the other dimension.
But could WLR happen after Strange inevitably resolves his problem (in DSSS#75)? Unfortunately after that he spends some time with long hair and a different costume under the returned Cloak. Then (DSSS#80) he resumes his normal physical look but with the Cloak turned into a coat over a brocade waistcoat/shirt. He'll wear this until SENSM#22-23 when he regains powers that he lost by initially refusing to join in the War Of The 7 Spheres, and simultaneously returns to his classic costume. (But note that his chronology has him later sometimes still in the fancy costume, eg HR:R#2. Maybe a subject for a later investigation?)
WLR also involves Warlock and the Infinity Watch with the Infinity Gems, which they lose and then disband at the end of their series. But SENSM#22-23 are well after DCV.M/ (in which DrS has the fancy costume), which in turn is after RUNE/SS which coincides with the end of the Infinity Watch. So Doc in his classic outfit can't fit with the Watch after as well as during the pocket dimension period.
However if we allow Dr Strange's costume to be a mistake for his post-DSSS#80 fancier version then it might be possible to fit WLR's Infinity Watch apps somewhere between WLOCK&TIW#36 (which is connected to DrS's pocket dimension era) and the end in #42.
(There's also a problem that DSSS#80 says he buys a new brownstone to replace the destroyed Sanctum, yet in WLR#2 Pip teleports himself and others to DrS's place which he can only do if he's been there before. But then Marvel soon seems to forget that it's a new house so maybe we can too.)
But before taking that route it behooves me to explore the other option which is to find a way to move SSR and WLR to before DSSS#61. The immediate obstacle to this in Silver Surfer's current chronology is Strange's astral visit in IH2#414. I stand by my reasoning that SSR happens after SS3@7, but I believe that for Surfer SS3@7 and IH2#414-416 can be swapped round leaving the possibility of putting SSR and WLR before IH2#414 as well. IH2#414-416 provide *no* evidence for positioning themselves in SS's chronology. SS3@7 has a limited cast which only places it after the Cosmic Powers series and for Surfer's own chronology it is agnostic.
But there is a more difficult problem. In SS3@7 Legacy refers to getting revenge on Nitro for his father's death in SECDEF#14 (alongside Surfer in his app previous to IH2#414-416/SS@7). But in SECDEF#11 Dr Strange makes an astral app in the ruins of his Sanctum. And #11 starts the Thanos storyline which runs through #11-14 and which definitely precedes Cosmic Powers, which in turn is stated to precede SS3@7.
However there is a possible way round this because the scene in SECDEF#11(18-22) with Thanos (and Geatar) is totally disconnected from the rest of the issue. The main 1-issue plot concerns some heroes dealing with an an alien robot left on Earth during the Starblast event. So that main part could theoretically occur later than the Thanos story in #11-14. And SECDEF#11 is currently listed as Dr Strange's 1st app after DSSS#61 so with that dealt with we'd be home free.
By logically moving only SECDEF#11(18-22)-14, Q#59, CP#1-6, SS3@7(with /2-FB and /2), M/CP#172-175, CLAN#1-3 and SSR#1-5 to before SECDEF#11(1-17) and IH2#414-416 we only potentially change the chronologies of the limited set of chars in those issues.
The only actual effect (before adding WLR containing Dr Strange) is for Silver Surfer moving IH2#414-416. The chars in SECEDEF#11 have been split into 2 groups each in different parts of the issue, but we don't reflect such a thing and list them all as occupying the whole issue. And the split doesn't move either part of the issue out of range of their current before and afters.
However there are 2 more problems with this approach. 1 minor and solvable. The other more nebulous.
The 1st concerns Q#59 which only features Quasar, Eros, Thanos and ISAAC the computer. For Quasar this stand-alone fill-in issue is set after #60, the end of his series, when he's left Earth 'permanently' for space. Q#57-58,60 tidied up stuff after the Starblast event. Nova appeared in #60 after his Starblast app in SECDEF#11(1-17), which included the astral app of DrS. Thus Q#59 is set in or after Strange's pocket dimension period. But Thanos has it between SECDEF#14 and CP#1-6 which I have just forced to be before that period. So I'd have to move Q#59 for Thanos later, after SSR and WLR. I believe I can do that without affecting the other chars.
My other concern is with the Starblast event itself. STARBLAST#1 and Q#54 coincide with WLOCKC#6 at the start of the Blood And Thunder event where DrS is in his classic costume. SECDEF#11(1-17) is in DrS's pocket dimension period. But that (main part of the) issue is part 3 of Starblast. Frank and michel's chronology (1993-1994: INFINITY CRUSADE to STARBLAST (Frank)) for this era has a long gap between STARBLAST#1/Q#54 and the rest of Starblast wherein to fit Blood & Thunder and the Midnight Suns lead up to DSSS#61, amongst other things. So I guess I'm just loading more stuff in that gap, from SECDEF#11(18-22) to CLAN#1-3 plus the new SSR and WLR.
In fact they leave DSSS#61 into the next post-Starblast chronology section (1994: STARBLAST to FUTURE IMPERFECT (Frank/Michel)), along with Q#57-60. Which means they also put SECDEF#11-14 there, thus taking SECDEF#11(1-17) out of the middle of Starblast. More evidence of the tangled minefield that is the Marvel 1990's! Still Nova does say in that issue that he's dealing with a robot the Starblast aliens left behind, so it could be read as happening after Starblast rather than just after Q#54 when a bunch of heroes (not including Nova) followed those aliens into space.
There also remains the question of how happy we are about moving SECDEF#11(18-22)-14 to before SECDEF#11(1-17). I might point out that SECDEF#11(18-22)-14 is anomalous in that it features a team of villains organised by Thanos whereas the previous issues up to and including SECDEF#11(1-17) have heroes organised by Dr Strange, and the succeeding issues will have heroes organised and led by DrS's appointee Dr Druid.
The other factor to be considered is how WLR fits into the Infinity Watch chronology. From the Watch it mainly only involves Adam Warlock, Gamora and Pip. Drax and Moondragon pop in at then end of #5 having missed it all. In #1 Gamora says those 2 are just "off somewhere". She also says that she herself has just returned from a solo mission in space, which doesn't match with anything in her chronology. Maxam isn't mentioned even though he's present all through to the end in #42.
But Gamora quits the Watch in #41. And Moondragon is severely injured in #39 and after that she's bed-ridden and can only act by taking over Drax's body. As mentioned before #36 is set within the DrS pocket dimension era. That just leaves somewhere between #36 and #39 to insert WLR in that later era. #37-39 are 1 story that ends with Moondragon's injury. But #36 is a stand-alone tale so we could insert WLR between #36 and #37.
At the other end of the scale WLR could go neatly between #25 in Blood & Thunder and #26-33 the Avengers/Count Abyss saga.
So in the end it comes down to a choice between simply assuming the Ron's Marz & Lim got Dr Strange's costume wrong or doing some fairly minor changes to the chronologies of Silver Surfer and Thanos but which have a large effect on the Frank and michel's global chronologies and do some unusual juggling with SECDEF.
I'm currently undecided which way to jump. I'll take a while to think about it. If anyone has any opinions please chip in.
These are the amended chronologies for SS and Thanos from my Silver Surfer Rebirth thread. I've extended them backwards a bit for reasons that will become clear.
THANOS
----
SECDEF 11-13
CP 1-6
SSR 1-5
SS3 98
----
SILVER SURFER
----
SECDEF 14 (an epilogue to Thanos' #11-13)
IH2 414-416
SS@ 7
M/CP 172/3
M/CP 173
M/CP 174/3
M/CP 175/2
CLAN 1-3
SSR 1-5
IH2 417-418
SS3 93
----
WLR is specifically set after SSR. In SSR Silver Surfer suggests to Legacy that if he wants to know more about his father Captain Marvel he should visit his adopted home Earth. In WLR#1 he arrives on Monster Island looking for Adam Warlock and repeating the Surfer's advice (with an editorial caption referencing SSR#5).
Dr Strange gets involved in WLR#2-5 in non-astral form with his classic appearance. Ron has presumably forgotten that during much of this period Doc was confined to a pocket dimension and could only appear on Earth in astral form. Moreover he now sported close-shaven hair and a stubbly beard plus was without his Cloak Of Levitation, and his astral form mirrored that. He appears that way in IH2#414, and Surfer has IH2#414-416 before SS3@7. This suggests that WLR can't be *before* Strange gets in that situation in DSSS#61. Legacy and some of the Infinity Watch also visit Strange in his Sanctum Sanctorum, but that has been destroyed in the same event which banished Doc to the other dimension.
But could WLR happen after Strange inevitably resolves his problem (in DSSS#75)? Unfortunately after that he spends some time with long hair and a different costume under the returned Cloak. Then (DSSS#80) he resumes his normal physical look but with the Cloak turned into a coat over a brocade waistcoat/shirt. He'll wear this until SENSM#22-23 when he regains powers that he lost by initially refusing to join in the War Of The 7 Spheres, and simultaneously returns to his classic costume. (But note that his chronology has him later sometimes still in the fancy costume, eg HR:R#2. Maybe a subject for a later investigation?)
WLR also involves Warlock and the Infinity Watch with the Infinity Gems, which they lose and then disband at the end of their series. But SENSM#22-23 are well after DCV.M/ (in which DrS has the fancy costume), which in turn is after RUNE/SS which coincides with the end of the Infinity Watch. So Doc in his classic outfit can't fit with the Watch after as well as during the pocket dimension period.
However if we allow Dr Strange's costume to be a mistake for his post-DSSS#80 fancier version then it might be possible to fit WLR's Infinity Watch apps somewhere between WLOCK&TIW#36 (which is connected to DrS's pocket dimension era) and the end in #42.
(There's also a problem that DSSS#80 says he buys a new brownstone to replace the destroyed Sanctum, yet in WLR#2 Pip teleports himself and others to DrS's place which he can only do if he's been there before. But then Marvel soon seems to forget that it's a new house so maybe we can too.)
But before taking that route it behooves me to explore the other option which is to find a way to move SSR and WLR to before DSSS#61. The immediate obstacle to this in Silver Surfer's current chronology is Strange's astral visit in IH2#414. I stand by my reasoning that SSR happens after SS3@7, but I believe that for Surfer SS3@7 and IH2#414-416 can be swapped round leaving the possibility of putting SSR and WLR before IH2#414 as well. IH2#414-416 provide *no* evidence for positioning themselves in SS's chronology. SS3@7 has a limited cast which only places it after the Cosmic Powers series and for Surfer's own chronology it is agnostic.
But there is a more difficult problem. In SS3@7 Legacy refers to getting revenge on Nitro for his father's death in SECDEF#14 (alongside Surfer in his app previous to IH2#414-416/SS@7). But in SECDEF#11 Dr Strange makes an astral app in the ruins of his Sanctum. And #11 starts the Thanos storyline which runs through #11-14 and which definitely precedes Cosmic Powers, which in turn is stated to precede SS3@7.
However there is a possible way round this because the scene in SECDEF#11(18-22) with Thanos (and Geatar) is totally disconnected from the rest of the issue. The main 1-issue plot concerns some heroes dealing with an an alien robot left on Earth during the Starblast event. So that main part could theoretically occur later than the Thanos story in #11-14. And SECDEF#11 is currently listed as Dr Strange's 1st app after DSSS#61 so with that dealt with we'd be home free.
By logically moving only SECDEF#11(18-22)-14, Q#59, CP#1-6, SS3@7(with /2-FB and /2), M/CP#172-175, CLAN#1-3 and SSR#1-5 to before SECDEF#11(1-17) and IH2#414-416 we only potentially change the chronologies of the limited set of chars in those issues.
The only actual effect (before adding WLR containing Dr Strange) is for Silver Surfer moving IH2#414-416. The chars in SECEDEF#11 have been split into 2 groups each in different parts of the issue, but we don't reflect such a thing and list them all as occupying the whole issue. And the split doesn't move either part of the issue out of range of their current before and afters.
However there are 2 more problems with this approach. 1 minor and solvable. The other more nebulous.
The 1st concerns Q#59 which only features Quasar, Eros, Thanos and ISAAC the computer. For Quasar this stand-alone fill-in issue is set after #60, the end of his series, when he's left Earth 'permanently' for space. Q#57-58,60 tidied up stuff after the Starblast event. Nova appeared in #60 after his Starblast app in SECDEF#11(1-17), which included the astral app of DrS. Thus Q#59 is set in or after Strange's pocket dimension period. But Thanos has it between SECDEF#14 and CP#1-6 which I have just forced to be before that period. So I'd have to move Q#59 for Thanos later, after SSR and WLR. I believe I can do that without affecting the other chars.
My other concern is with the Starblast event itself. STARBLAST#1 and Q#54 coincide with WLOCKC#6 at the start of the Blood And Thunder event where DrS is in his classic costume. SECDEF#11(1-17) is in DrS's pocket dimension period. But that (main part of the) issue is part 3 of Starblast. Frank and michel's chronology (1993-1994: INFINITY CRUSADE to STARBLAST (Frank)) for this era has a long gap between STARBLAST#1/Q#54 and the rest of Starblast wherein to fit Blood & Thunder and the Midnight Suns lead up to DSSS#61, amongst other things. So I guess I'm just loading more stuff in that gap, from SECDEF#11(18-22) to CLAN#1-3 plus the new SSR and WLR.
In fact they leave DSSS#61 into the next post-Starblast chronology section (1994: STARBLAST to FUTURE IMPERFECT (Frank/Michel)), along with Q#57-60. Which means they also put SECDEF#11-14 there, thus taking SECDEF#11(1-17) out of the middle of Starblast. More evidence of the tangled minefield that is the Marvel 1990's! Still Nova does say in that issue that he's dealing with a robot the Starblast aliens left behind, so it could be read as happening after Starblast rather than just after Q#54 when a bunch of heroes (not including Nova) followed those aliens into space.
There also remains the question of how happy we are about moving SECDEF#11(18-22)-14 to before SECDEF#11(1-17). I might point out that SECDEF#11(18-22)-14 is anomalous in that it features a team of villains organised by Thanos whereas the previous issues up to and including SECDEF#11(1-17) have heroes organised by Dr Strange, and the succeeding issues will have heroes organised and led by DrS's appointee Dr Druid.
The other factor to be considered is how WLR fits into the Infinity Watch chronology. From the Watch it mainly only involves Adam Warlock, Gamora and Pip. Drax and Moondragon pop in at then end of #5 having missed it all. In #1 Gamora says those 2 are just "off somewhere". She also says that she herself has just returned from a solo mission in space, which doesn't match with anything in her chronology. Maxam isn't mentioned even though he's present all through to the end in #42.
But Gamora quits the Watch in #41. And Moondragon is severely injured in #39 and after that she's bed-ridden and can only act by taking over Drax's body. As mentioned before #36 is set within the DrS pocket dimension era. That just leaves somewhere between #36 and #39 to insert WLR in that later era. #37-39 are 1 story that ends with Moondragon's injury. But #36 is a stand-alone tale so we could insert WLR between #36 and #37.
At the other end of the scale WLR could go neatly between #25 in Blood & Thunder and #26-33 the Avengers/Count Abyss saga.
So in the end it comes down to a choice between simply assuming the Ron's Marz & Lim got Dr Strange's costume wrong or doing some fairly minor changes to the chronologies of Silver Surfer and Thanos but which have a large effect on the Frank and michel's global chronologies and do some unusual juggling with SECDEF.
I'm currently undecided which way to jump. I'll take a while to think about it. If anyone has any opinions please chip in.