Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

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Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by newtron » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:55 pm

Hi,
I'm reading / trying to read Spider-Man appearances in story order from the beginning. I've just recently got to ASM 85 and the next few issues following it. Currently the MCP lists the correct order as:

--

ASM 85
PUN:YO 2
CA 130
SS 14
A 82
ASM 86
ASM 87
ASM '96-FB
WTS 4
WTS 5
WTS 6
AA2 3/2
ASM 88

---

Based on my reading, I'm pretty sure this can't be right. For one thing, ASM 85-86-87 are a pretty tight story with not a lot of room to shove other stuff in. They also show a snow-covered NYC, which doesn't jive with PUN:YO, CA, or SS. Finally, the narration of A 82 says that it's September 21, 1970 and the Bugle in AA2 3/2 says that it's June 6, 1970. Placing June after September doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Here's my new proposed order based on what I've read (with my reasoning).

---

ASM 85
There's snow on the ground. Probably late winter / early spring - say late March or early April.

ASM 86
Immediately after ASM 85, as Spidey is thinking about his encounter with Kingpin from ASM 85 on the splash page.

The only weird continuity thing here is that he mentions being sore from his fight with Kingpin (and later we see bruises from this), but in ASM 85 he didn't actually fight Kingpin. He did, however, get trapped in some metal cables that squeezed tight around him. This, combined with the fact that he is starting to come down with the flu (which weakens/negates his powers), could have caused the bruising and pain Spidey describes.

There is still snow on the ground.

AA2 1/2
This has a flashback to ASM 86.

ASM 87
Continues directly from ASM 86. The snow on the ground has melted and there are leaves on the trees, so it's looking more like early spring.

AA2 3/2
A copy of the Bugle with the date June 6, 1970 is shown. This follows events in ASM 86, and the date goes well the seasonal stuff.

PUN:YO 2
This whole series seems to happen relatively quickly, and in the first issue the Castles are having a picnic, placing the timeline sometime in spring, summer, or early fall. The order of this could probably switch with either AA2 3/2 or CA 130.

CA 130
Has to occur before A 82 according to Captain America's chronology. The riots on a campus mean this probably occurs during the school year, so we can put it around early September.

A 82
Explicitly stated as September 21, 1970. The Daredevil and Human Torch chronologies show that this happens before SS 14 & 15 and Webspinners 4-6.

SS 14
After A 82 (see above), before Webspinners (see below).

SS 15
Flashback to SS 14.

WTS 4, 5, 6
Explicitly states that it's a couple weeks after the events in SS 14.

ASM 88
There's nothing really indicating where this goes, but I think it makes sense here.

---

I haven't read any further than that. Are the any reasons why this order doesn't work?
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Post by newtron » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:10 pm

Oops - looks like I put this in the wrong forum. Sorry about that.

Also, I just read up to ASM 90, in which Capt. Stacy mentions Pete's flu from the previous couple issues. It looks like 88-90 won't work where I have them, but I'm sure they can be fit in somewhere.

Dave
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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by JLH » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:19 am

newtron wrote:PUN:YO 2
This whole series seems to happen relatively quickly, and in the first issue the Castles are having a picnic, placing the timeline sometime in spring, summer, or early fall.
Yeah, the deaths of the Castle family are generally said to be in June, if I recall correctly.

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Post by newtron » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:14 am

OK, I probably should have waited until posting initially, but I've hit more snags.

- First, in Death & Destiny 1 (SM:D&D 1) there's a shot of the Bugle from sometime in the week following Capt. Stacy's death. It is dated June 7. This means that Stacy's death comes almost immediately before the events in AA2 3/2, but in that issue - in the same scene with the June 6th newspaper - Jameson says "Spider-who? I've forgotten all about him! He's stale news right now!". This, clearly, isn't true in the aftermath of Stacy's death.

- Second, Gwen and Capt. Stacy both appear in WTS 4, so that has to be before Capt. Stacy's death.

This can be solved if we assume that 1) the Human Torch and Daredevil chronologies are wrong, and the SS 14, SS 15, and WTS 4-6 happen before A 82, and 2) that the newspaper shown in AA2 3/2 is a flashforward. Lame? Maybe, but are there any compelling reasons we can't make those assumptions?

---

ASM 85
ASM 86
(AA2 1/2 - Flashback)
ASM 87
SS 14
(SS 15 - Flashback)
WTS 4
WTS 5
WTS 6

AA2 3/2 - everything except the splash page
The paper shown in Jameson's hands is plausibly different than the one on the splash. We can treat all of Jameson's dialogue and the majority of the issue as happening before Stacy's death, which is why Spidey is not big news. The splash page with the Bugle, then, is a flash forward.

ASM 88
ASM 89
ASM 90

PUN:YO 2
According to JLH this is in June. It could easily fit anywhere between here and the SM:D&D stuff, which all (or mostly) takes place in June (according to papers shown in the issues).

AA2 3/2 - splash page
The splash of this issue shows the Bugle and the date. It is the interior of the paper, not the front page. This makes sense if the Captain Stacy stories are on the front page, and the news about the Black Widow is delegated to later pages.

SM:D&D 1 - until the funeral
ASM 91 - until about page 9
SM:D&D 1 - after the funeral
ASM 91 - about page 10 onwards
ASM 92
SM:D&D 2
SM:D&D 3

...
CA 130
A 82

---

I've left out everything I haven't read. The issues that are missing are:
ASM '96-FB
ASM 365/3-FB
PPSM2 26-FB

Sound good? I'm not sure how much later CA 130 and A 82 have to come. Perhaps a whole bunch more Spidey issues will have to fit in before them.

Dave
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Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:17 pm

Tip: aside from Paul B. and his calendar, I don't think the MCP considers dates on a newspaper as a determining factor for chronological placement. Nine times out of ten the dates are just made up and tossed onto the page by the artist or letterer, and don't really work when compared to the made-up dates found in another comic.

If you start re-ordering chronologies based mainly on random, made-up dates found in tiny print at the top of the Bugle, you're in for a long and difficult road. That way lies madness. Even Paul B. will be the first to tell you that sometimes you've just gotta disregard those types of "clues" in the face of larger contextual evidence.

-Jeph!

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Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:41 pm

Jeph wrote:
Even Paul B. will be the first to tell you that sometimes you've just gotta disregard those types of "clues" in the face of larger contextual evidence.
Yup, that's right. All (or most) other things being equal, I'll consider dates as clues for placement, but I don't believe that in this sequence of events all things are equal. I admit I haven't reviewed your suggested changes in detail, neutron, but I can say that the basic calendar in this period of MU history has been set by various Marvel Indexes, and continuity implants set in this period end up getting placed according to how they relate to previously published stories more than to dates noted in the implant stories themselves. It's a well-known fact that writers of Marvel continuity implant stories never consult those Indexes for the kinds of temporal details we're discussing. :wink: A lot of these dates end up getting consigned to "topical" status.
Paul B.

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Post by newtron » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:54 pm

i see your points about the dates - i've already got a taste of what kind of nightmare it would be to try and use them - but i think the other contextual clues i was following make sense. things like the snow/weather, and simply the tight sequence of events in some of the issues, make me think the order in there's not right.

obviously i will defer to you guys, as i'm sure this ground has been tread before. :)

thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by JLH » Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:21 pm

Hey! ooOO?! I just realized, my Webspinner analyses are on the MCP now!

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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by Somebody » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:20 pm

JLH wrote:Hey! ooOO?! I just realized, my Webspinner analyses are on the MCP now!
Looks like that Dr Strange placement I objected to (with him in his house with the big window, when he'd abandoned it and boarded it up; wearing his original costume when he'd given up magic to the point he depowered himself) made it in though... :(

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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by Russ Chappell » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:05 pm

JLH wrote:Hey! ooOO?! I just realized, my Webspinner analyses are on the MCP now!
We add to/update the listings almost every day now, although several months can pass before we officially announce the updates. Over a hundred books have been added in the last couple of months (which STILL isn't enough to keep up with Marvel's output, but...)


watching: weather channel

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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by newtron » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:22 pm

Hi,

I have no idea if Paul (or anyone) has an interest in stretching the calendar back this far, but I just thought I'd mention another date discrepancy I came across. The captions in ASM 145 specify that the Scorpion's bank robbery happens in March, while a few issues later in Marvel Team-Up 34 the captions mention that it's late February. I don't really think there's any way to reconcile this, other than saying that it's an error.

Anyway, I totally see what you guys were saying before about how maddening this could be.
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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:29 pm

newtron wrote:
I have no idea if Paul (or anyone) has an interest in stretching the calendar back this far, but I just thought I'd mention another date discrepancy I came across. The captions in ASM 145 specify that the Scorpion's bank robbery happens in March, while a few issues later in Marvel Team-Up 34 the captions mention that it's late February. I don't really think there's any way to reconcile this, other than saying that it's an error.
In OMITASM 6, Olshevsky notes that ASM 145 "cannot be a 'March day,' as noted in panel 7, page 7. March is a topical reference to the month in which the issue was placed on sale." Olshevsky says "it is not yet New Year's Eve."
Paul B.

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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by newtron » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:36 pm

ah, thanks paul. i've been meaning to take a look at those indeces.
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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by Enda80 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:26 pm

One small clue about the placement of ASM I#85 comes from the Avengers Index:
George Olshevksy's Avengers Index#3. In that issue, he discusses Avengers I#61, and notes that some freak weather conditions, such as the abnormally premature snowstorms seen in Elektra: Assassin, were caused by the battle between Ymir and Surtur in Avengers I#61, as well as by the events of Incredible Hulk I#109-110 (in which a large machine that affected the Earth's rotation existed in the Savage Land — this machine was the Planet-Destroyer, which was a weapon of the Sagittarians, used in the service of the Galaxy Master. It is seen in the profile for Umbu the Unliving). Thus, some of the events of Elektra: Assassin took place around the time of other stories with premature snowstorms, such as Amazing Spider-Man I#85, Incredible Hulk I#115, and Daredevil I#52-53. These premature snowstorms came ever now and then during a period of two or three months following the events of Avengers I#61. Further, Avengers I#61 took place towards the end of the third week of September of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college. So, we can nail things down ever further.

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Re: Amazing Spider-Man 85-88 and others

Post by JephYork » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:30 pm

I feel like you've mentioned this factoid before...

-Jeph!

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