Punisher MAX 56-60

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Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Oct 08, 2008 4:34 pm

Punisher v7 #55
Punisher v7 #56
June, 2008

Appearances:
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg2pn2-FB: Vietnam, late summer of 1969
A young George Howe has been captured by the Viet Cong, he being held in a bamboo cage in Lao surrounded by the severed hands and feet of his platoon-mates.
Pg2pn3-pg2pn4(of 4): day after end of last issue
Col. Howe and Lt. Geller chat.
Pg3-pg5pn1(of 4)-FB: Vietnam, late summer of 1969
A Special Forces unit frees George Howe, Frank Castle is one of the men in the unit. This experience convinces Howe to join Special Forces himself, and will serve his next two tours with the Green Berets.
Pg5pn2-pg7: same day as (2:3-2:4)
Col. Howe introduces Lt. Geller to his Punisher Task Force.
Pg8-pg9
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg10: same day as (5:2-7)
The 8 Army & Air Force officials chat, the plan’s in place and everyone’s heading to New York.
Pg11-pg13: some days after (10)
Howe’s Task Force investigates a recent Punisher attack.
Pg14-pg15
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg16-pg22: some days after (11-13)
Howe’s Task Force are staking out areas of recent Punisher activity when the Punisher appears and asks them what they’re doing. After a quick skirmish the Punisher escapes, but not before a tracer is placed on him.

References:
Sometime between pg10 & pg11 the Punisher blows up a night club. This happened the night after the Task Force arrived in New York. By pg16-pg22, the Punisher mentions that he was staking the night club out to prepare his attack ‘last week’. I would think they would arrive in New York shortly after deciding to leave, maybe a day or two? Also for some reason, I would like to say the night club blew up on a Friday. So we have:

(10) Let’s go to New York!

-BTS- Punisher stakes out a night club

-BTS- Task Force arrives in New York; Thursday

-BTS- Next day, Punisher blows up a night club; Friday

(11-13) Next day? Investigate the scene. Saturday?

(16-22) A few days later? Punisher mentions he staked out the night club ‘last week’. Tuesday?

Essentially, there is a gap in time but not enough for the Punisher to appear anywhere else during this issue, or between this issue and last.

Punisher v7 #57
July, 2008

Appearances:
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg8: day after end of last issue
The Task Force follow the tracer and attack the Punisher, but he’s ready and waiting for them. He fights them off but doesn’t kill any of them.
Pg9-pg10
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg11-pg16: same day as (1-8)
Col. Howe is told by his Task Force about how thoroughly The Punisher handed them their asses. The 8 Army & Air Force officials arrive and yell at Col. Howe for not catching the Punisher, but they’re interrupted when the tracer on the Punisher is reactivated. Meanwhile, the Punisher watches the news in a bar while he plays with the tracer.
Pg17-pg18
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg19-pg22: same day as (11-16)
The Task Force follows the signal to a cemetery, where the Punisher is waiting with a mountain of explosives. He wants to talk to the man in charge.(Col. Howe)

Punisher v7 #58
August, 2008

Appearances:
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg6: same night as last issue
Col. Howe arrives and talks with the Punisher. After both sides make their intentions known, the Punisher sets off his explosives.
Pg7-pg12
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg13-pg22: same night as (1-6)
The explosives turn out to be flash and smoke, but the Punisher isn’t able to escape. He’s captured and retained by the Task Force. Col. Howe calls the General of the 8 Army & Air Force officials to tell him he has the Punisher, but is yelled at for not getting the tape the Punisher has. Col. Howe then goes in to talk to the Punisher about the tape.

References:
There are photographs in this excerpt from the book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”, one is of Frank Castle in 1971, cleaning his rifle.

Punisher v7 #59
September, 2008

Appearances:
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury-OP, William Rawlins-FB, Kathryn O’Brien-FB-VO, Punisher-FB-OP

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg4: same night as last issue
Col. Howe retrieves the tape from a locker, the Punisher told him where it was but Col. Howe is sure that it’s just a copy.
Pg5-pg6
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg7-pg10: same night as (1-4)
Col. Howe starts to watch the tape of Rawlins’ confession, which can ruin the 8 Army & Air Force officials.
Pg11-pg17: next day
The 8 Army & Air Force officials discuss Col. Howe and his possible reasons for not turning the Punisher and his tape over to them and decide to take matters into their own hands. Meanwhile, Col. Howe dismisses his Task Force and tells them to take Lt. Geller with them. Afterwards, he watches the tape again, this time taking notes.
Pg18-pg20
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg21-pg22: same day as (11-17)
After making a few calls, Col. Howe informs the Punisher that he won’t be acting on his tape; it would result in a national outrage and he can’t have that. The Punisher, not very happy, asks where that leaves them…

References:
Rawlins’ confession was videotaped by the Punisher between pages 16 & 17 of issue 23 of the current volume. Rawlins appears on the tape, O’Brien’s voice is heard, and the Punisher is working the camera. Also, Rawlins finally has a first name: William.

Col. Howe mentions that he and his Task Force usually meet on Mondays.

Punisher v7 #60
October, 2008

Appearances:
Punisher(Frank Castle), Col. George Howe, Lt. Geller, 8 Army & Air Force officials, Col. Nick Fury

Synopsis:
Pg1-pg3: same day as end of last issue
Col. Howe gives the Punisher a gun with eight bullets and thanks him for what he’s about to do.
Pg4-pg5
An excerpt from the new book “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”.
Pg6-pg22: same day as (1-3)
Col. Howe greets the 8 Army & Air Force officials as they approach, he tells them he’s washed his hands of their deal and leaves. Meanwhile, Lt. Geller tries to call to let them know something he’s figured out; Col. Howe was rescued by Frank Castle in Vietnam. Elsewhere, Nick Fury finishes reading “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher”. Afterwards, Frank Castle walks away from the bodies of the 8 Army & Air Force officials he’s just killed.

References:
There are some FlashBacks that repeat information from PUN7 56, no new information.(same dialogue, different ‘camera’ angles)

It’s revealed that Nick Fury has been reading “Valley Forge, Valley Forge: The Slaughter of a U.S. Marine Garrison and the Birth of the Punisher” during these six issues. He starts in issue 55 and finishes in issue 60. Because we see the pages he’s reading throughout these issues, I’ve opted to give him Off Panel designations for each of these issues.

Placements for the FlashBacks:

PUNISHER II/FRANK CASTIGLIONE/"FRANK CASTLE"

PBSS 3-FB
*PUN7 56-FB
PWJ 4-FB
PUN4 3-FB
*PUN7 58-FB(photograph)
BORN 1

PUN7 23 (1-16)
*PUN7 59-FB-OP(recording)
PUN7 23 (17-22)


RAWLINS, WILLIAM

PUN7 23 (1-16)
*PUN7 59-FB(recording)
PUN7 23 (17-22)


O’BRIEN, KATHRYN

PUN7 23 (1-16)
*PUN7 59-FB-VO(recording)
PUN7 23 (17-22)


And a breakdown of the current stuff:

PUN7 55 (1-7): one day, Saturday, not long after PUN7 54
PUN7 55 (8-22): next day, Sunday
PUN7 56 (2:3-2:4): next day, Monday
PUN7 56 (5:2-10): same day, Monday
PUN7 56 (11-13): Saturday
PUN7 56 (14-22): Tuesday
PUN7 57: Wednesday
PUN7 58: Wednesday
PUN7 59 (1-10): Wednesday
PUN7 59 (11-22): Thursday
PUN7 60: Thursday

First, apologies to Paul B...

I’ve been thinking about Somebody’s suggestion of putting all of the current Punisher War Journal issues after the end of Ennis’ run, because of the difference in tone of the two books… is that do-able? Because I kind of like that idea. We’re already ignoring a lot of the references to the passage of time in this volume, we would just have to tighten it up a bit more. That would mean this batch of issues would predate Civil War… would that work? We would end up with whatever through PUN7 60,(including the various one-shots in between those issues, like Bloody Valentine, Force of Nature, Silent Night, etc, and even the Punisher vs Bullseye mini could stay mixed up in there) then Civil War, more of PWJ2, World War Hulk, more PWJ2, then Secret Invasion, and then PUN7 61 through whatever, and eventually Punisher War Zone v2.

Thoughts?
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:48 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
*PUN7 59-FB(recording)
Colonel, do you have a page:panel citation for this recording?


Col_Fury wote:
I’ve been thinking about Somebody’s suggestion of putting all of the current Punisher War Journal issues after the end of Ennis’ run, because of the difference in tone of the two books… is that do-able? Because I kind of like that idea. We’re already ignoring a lot of the references to the passage of time in this volume, we would just have to tighten it up a bit more. That would mean this batch of issues would predate Civil War… would that work? We would end up with whatever through PUN7 60,(including the various one-shots in between those issues, like Bloody Valentine, Force of Nature, Silent Night, etc, and even the Punisher vs Bullseye mini could stay mixed up in there) then Civil War, more of PWJ2, World War Hulk, more PWJ2, then Secret Invasion, and then PUN7 61 through whatever, and eventually Punisher War Zone v2.
We have no plot-based clues to place this whole run of PUN7 before Civil War. Wouldn't this suggestion violate the "rule" that we consider publication order as a factor in determining chronology in the absence of such clues? I don't believe we've ever considered "tone" as a piece of evidence for organizing chronologies before.

I haven't read PWJ2 18-23, though, so maybe there are other clues there? Could someone supply an analysis of those books?
Paul B.

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Re: Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:08 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:*PUN7 59-FB(recording)
Colonel, do you have a page:panel citation for this recording?
(7-10)
Paul Bourcier wrote:We have no plot-based clues to place this whole run of PUN7 before Civil War.
It was your comment here(and Somebody's response to it, of course) that got me thinking about it:
Paul Bourcier wrote:The thing with PWJ2 is that Castle hangs with Stuart Clarke throughout this series(PWJ2) and there seems to be no mention of Clarke in PUN7.
You're half right in that there 'seems to be no mention of Clarke in PUN7', because there is NO mention of him at all in PUN7. Now of course, lack of evidence of Stuart Clarke in PUN7 can't be used as evidence that there is no Stuart Clarke during PUN7.
Paul Bourcier wrote:Wouldn't this suggestion violate the "rule" that we consider publication order as a factor in determining chronology in the absence of such clues?
As far as publication order goes, we're only looking at two story arcs. Sure, it's a year and a half worth of issues, but PUN7 43-49 & PUN7 50-60 are really two arcs. PUN7 43-49 lasts about a week, and PUN7 50-60 lasts about, what, about a month and a half? Besides, PUN7 43-49 & PUN7 50-60 ties up all of the plot threads from throughout the series. PWJ2 starts it's own series of events and subplots, including Clarke, which builds up from issue one and culminates with Secret Invasion. If it's workable, I'm suggesting putting these two PUN7 arcs before the start of PWJ2 so Ennis' run is finished before Fraction's run begins. Doing this would solve the wierdness of Clarke, and help to alleviate Fury appearing in PUN7 when he's supposed to be in hiding. I can almost see Fury going out for drinks with Frank(in PUN7 55-60) before Civil War, but after WWH? While he's training his recruits?

So while they may not be concrete evidence, I'm saying that Clarke & Fury suggest pre-Civil War placement for PUN7 43-60.
Paul Bourcier wrote:I haven't read PWJ2 18-23, though, so maybe there are other clues there? Could someone supply an analysis of those books?
I'll see if I can get this up tonight. Essentially though, the Punisher ends up in prison, which is where he is when the Skrulls attack in PWJ2 24.
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:42 am

Speaking in terms of the Calendar, this is what we roughly have currently:

December 21, year 22 – January 2, year 23
Punisher: Red X-Mas
May 9 – May 17, year 23
Punisher v7 13-18
July 5 - August 13, year 23
Punisher v7 19-30
August 15 – September 9, year 23
Daredevil vs Punisher 1-6
September 12 – September 26, year 23
Punisher vs Bullseye 1-5
November 3 – November 6, year 23
Punisher: Bloody Valentine
November 16 – November 19, year 23
Punisher v7 31-36
November 22-November 26, year 23
Daredevil v2 84-87
December 5 – December 18, year 23
Punisher v7 37-42
December 24 – December 25, year 23
Punisher: Silent Night
December 25 – December 26, year 23
Punisher: X-Mas Special
December, year 23 – March, year 24
PWJ2 1-3 & Civil War
March 25 – March 31, year 24
Punisher v7 43-49
April 1 – April 5, year 24
BARRACUDA 1-5
April 8, year 24
Punisher Annual
April 9-
PUN7 50-
Unplaced:
Force of Nature
Little Black Book


BUT, if we moved Punisher v7 13-18 earlier to January or February from May, that would give us 6 or 7 months to play with, like so:

December 21, year 22 – January 2, year 23
Punisher: Red X-Mas

Punisher v7 13-18 (9 days)
Punisher v7 19-30 (6 weeks)
Punisher v7 31-36 (4 days)
Punisher v7 37-42 (2 weeks)
Punisher v7 43-49 (1 week)

August 15 – September 9, year 23
Daredevil vs Punisher 1-6
September 12 – September 26, year 23
Punisher vs Bullseye 1-5

Barracuda 1-5 (4 days, possibly overlapped with PUNVBULL)

September 30 – November 15, give or take, maybe?
Punisher v7 50-60 (6 weeks, give or take)

November 22-November 26, year 23
Daredevil v2 84-87

Bloody Valentine (3 days)
Annual (1 night)
Force of Nature (about a week)
Little Black Book (1 night)

December 24 – December 25, year 23
Punisher: Silent Night
December 25 – December 26, year 23
Punisher: X-Mas Special
December, year 23 – March, year 24
PWJ2 1-3 & Civil War

This would push all the one-shot specials together, but I can live with that. They’re largely inconsequential, and can go practically anywhere. It would also leave the “nine months” that Susperia needs to learn to walk again intact AND give a few more weeks than she has at the moment.

Daredevil’s book doesn’t really leave a lot of wiggle room, so I’ll suggest leaving DDVPUN & PUNVBULL where they are.

This would also adjust for Fury’s chronology, so he can have drinks with Frank before the Registration Act passes and Civil War happens. If PUN7 55-60 ends up in mid-November, this is also around the time of that New Avengers giveaway issue, where Fury calls Avengers Tower even though he’s in hiding, keeping these ‘public’ appearances together.

Thoughts?
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:00 pm

Thanks for going to this trouble, Fury. I may not have a chance to look this over until this weekend, what with new comics coming and that whole Original Sin stuff to ponder. More later...
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Re: Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:21 pm

Fury's the tough part of this chronology (not you, Col_Fury, the "real" Nick :wink: ). If I move PUN7 13 earlier, then I also need to push SECRET WAR earlier, because PUN7 13 occurs after Fury loses his position as SHIELD director. And moving SECWAR has major implications for the rest of the MU.

Now SECWAR is bound up in all the major reorganization I need to consider as a result of recent revelations about chronology in SECRET INVASION flashbacks. I'll need to keep the relationship of PUN7 and SECWAR in mind as these reorganizations are planned. Who knows? Maybe the calendar placement of Punisher appearances might work out as a result...

For now, I have temporary placements for various Punisher stories on my working copy of the calendar so I don't forget them when I rearrange stuff -- a good post-SECWAR project for me that undouvtedly will postpone any update of the posted Calendar. :(

But if bunching nearly forty issues of PUN7 together in a character chronology is feasible, would folks go along with that approach, publication order be hanged?
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Re: Punisher MAX 56-60

Post by Somebody » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:28 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:But if bunching nearly forty issues of PUN7 together in a character chronology is feasible, would folks go along with that approach, publication order be hanged?
Certainly (although, since I'm the guy that proposed that in the first place, that may be slightly obvious :)). When it's feasible and the series aren't interlinked, I would always bundle series (especially ones as different as PUN7 & PUN:WJ2) as "A, B, C" rather than an "A1, B1, A2, C1, B2, C2"-typed arrangement. Always keep an eye on the best reading order for these things where there's more than one chronological option.

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