Flashback to France (in the winter of 1944)
American forces (wiped out)
Captain America (Steve Rogers) – briefly turns into a Hulk
Namor the Sub-Mariner
Human Torch (Jim Hammond)
Oberfuhrer Okkulte
army of animated statues
Arizona (decades later)
-----------
Namor the Sub-Mariner
Valkyrie (Brunnhilde)
Hulk (Robert Bruce Banner)
Doctor Stephen Strange
Silver Surfer (Norrin Radd)
Cyrus Black
Black’s army of possessed followers/victims
Avengers Mansion
------------------------
Iron Man (Tony Stark)
Captain America (Steve Rogers)
Thor Odinson
Scarlet Witch (Wanda Maximoff)
Vision (android)
Doctor Stephen Strange – falls under Diablo’s control
Hulk
Namor the Sub-Mariner
Silver Surfer
Valkyrie
Diablo - controlling Captain America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch and Thor
Note #1: The events in this miniseries take place sometime after the Defenders first met the Avengers during the Avengers/Defenders War from 1973 but I have no clue as to any more precise placement.
Note #2: Although Namor is certain that his "new" memory from 1944 is true, there is no record of Okkulte and Captain America doesn’t remember the incident.
Tarot #1
Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb
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DonCampbell
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Midnighter
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Re: Tarot #1
They said that the Avengers who fight against Vision are the only ones present at the mansion at that time. So we can think that other characters who were part of the formation at that time such as Mantis, Black Panther, Hawkeye or the Swordsman are simply absent. I think that, given the formation of Avengers and Defenders, is really shortly after Avengers/Defenders War.DonCampbell wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:08 pm
Note #1: The events in this miniseries take place sometime after the Defenders first met the Avengers during the Avengers/Defenders War from 1973 but I have no clue as to any more precise placement.
Re: Tarot #1
I've been bugged by the Sub-Mariner's costume and the FF in issue 2 with Johnny in his blue uniform and Sue also in her uniform. At the time Johnny had his red uniform, Sue wasn't a member and was replaced by Medusa. These aren't too big problems but add to the difficulty.
Okkulte appears again in issue 2 but the events are rewritten out of history by issue 4.
Okkulte appears again in issue 2 but the events are rewritten out of history by issue 4.
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DonCampbell
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Re: Tarot #1
Perhaps. The thing that caught my eye was when Strange referred to himself as the person who had foiled ALL of Black's previous ploys to gain power. The word "all" makes it sound like Strange had defeated him on multiple occasions but that's problematic since there were only three.Midnighter wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:35 pmThey said that the Avengers who fight against Vision are the only ones present at the mansion at that time. So we can think that other characters who were part of the formation at that time such as Mantis, Black Panther, Hawkeye or the Swordsman are simply absent. I think that, given the formation of Avengers and Defenders, is really shortly after Avengers/Defenders War.DonCampbell wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:08 pm
Note #1: The events in this miniseries take place sometime after the Defenders first met the Avengers during the Avengers/Defenders War from 1973 but I have no clue as to any more precise placement.
Their first published battle was in Defenders #6, and their next encounter was in Doctor Strange #34 but that story also included a flashback to a first meeting/clash that had occurred prior to the Defenders story. However, if this Tarot adventure did occur post-DS2 34, then it would also be after Defenders #60 but by that time the five original Defenders hardly ever appeared together.
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StrayLamb
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TAROT 1-4
More problems:
During this period, Daredevil is in San Francisco, has been for some time, and will be for some time longer. By the time he returns to New York, Sub-Mariner is in the costume designed by Reed Richards. We can't go earlier due to Valkyrie.
The whole 1944 thing is also completely bogus. Cap started using his round shield early in 1941, and he already had that by the time he first met the Sub-Mariner in CA 423.
I think we should relegate Tarot to the non-canon list.
Cyrus Black and Dr Strange do appear to have a past, however.
In DS2 34, Cyrus Black recounts a previous battle with Dr Strange prior to DEF 6, and prior to ASM@ 2. This flashback is listed in Watoomb’s chronology, but not in Dr Strange’s or Cyrus Black’s.
BLACK, CYRUS
DS2 34 (9)-FB * ADD
DEF 6
DS2 34 (10)-FB * ADD
DS2 34
TTA2 13/2
NA 53
Dr Strange appears in the first part of the flashback with Cyrus Black and Watoomb. This occurs prior to ASM@ 2, and is said to have taken place years ago, when they were both still apprentices, although that can’t be right, as Strange is shown in his red Cloak of Levitation, which he didn’t get until ST 127. This does indicate that Black and Strange had known each other for some time prior to DEF 6, and may have had unrecorded encounters in the meanwhile.
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
---
ST 125/2
ST 126/2
ST 127/2
MG:I 1-FB
DS2 34-FB * ADD
UTSM '97
ST 128/2
---
Nightmare appears in the second part of the flashback..
NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
---
DS2 13
DS2 34-FB * ADD
DS2 32
DS2 33
DS2 34
---
While i’m looking at DS2 34, i notice that it’s set on Midsummer’s Eve. DS2 53/2 is also set on Midsummer’s Eve, earlier in the evening, but it’s placed after DS2 37 for Strange and Clea.
CLEA
---
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
DS2 35
DS2 36
DS2 37
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 119-FB
DS2 38
---
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
---
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
M/TIO 49
DS2 35
DS2 36
DS2 37
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 119-FB
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
DS2 38
---
During this period, Daredevil is in San Francisco, has been for some time, and will be for some time longer. By the time he returns to New York, Sub-Mariner is in the costume designed by Reed Richards. We can't go earlier due to Valkyrie.
The whole 1944 thing is also completely bogus. Cap started using his round shield early in 1941, and he already had that by the time he first met the Sub-Mariner in CA 423.
I think we should relegate Tarot to the non-canon list.
Cyrus Black and Dr Strange do appear to have a past, however.
In DS2 34, Cyrus Black recounts a previous battle with Dr Strange prior to DEF 6, and prior to ASM@ 2. This flashback is listed in Watoomb’s chronology, but not in Dr Strange’s or Cyrus Black’s.
BLACK, CYRUS
DS2 34 (9)-FB * ADD
DEF 6
DS2 34 (10)-FB * ADD
DS2 34
TTA2 13/2
NA 53
Dr Strange appears in the first part of the flashback with Cyrus Black and Watoomb. This occurs prior to ASM@ 2, and is said to have taken place years ago, when they were both still apprentices, although that can’t be right, as Strange is shown in his red Cloak of Levitation, which he didn’t get until ST 127. This does indicate that Black and Strange had known each other for some time prior to DEF 6, and may have had unrecorded encounters in the meanwhile.
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
---
ST 125/2
ST 126/2
ST 127/2
MG:I 1-FB
DS2 34-FB * ADD
UTSM '97
ST 128/2
---
Nightmare appears in the second part of the flashback..
NIGHTMARE/"EDVARD HABERDASH"
---
DS2 13
DS2 34-FB * ADD
DS2 32
DS2 33
DS2 34
---
While i’m looking at DS2 34, i notice that it’s set on Midsummer’s Eve. DS2 53/2 is also set on Midsummer’s Eve, earlier in the evening, but it’s placed after DS2 37 for Strange and Clea.
CLEA
---
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
DS2 35
DS2 36
DS2 37
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 119-FB
DS2 38
---
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
---
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE TO HERE
DS2 34
M/TIO 49
DS2 35
DS2 36
DS2 37
DEF 53/2-BTS * MOVE FROM HERE
DEF 119-FB
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
DS2 38
---
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Re: Tarot #1
Some random remarks:
It's a bit early to relegate to the non-canon list. The Defenders and Avengers members are long-time members and the story could take place at several points until the mid-80s. The Defenders' status as a non-team means we can also look at any time when Nighthawk, Hellcat, etc. were members.
The five original Defenders are in Defenders 98-101 although that is a story without breaks. By the time they appear in Def 124, the Hulk has Banner's mind. Beyond that they do not appear until the 1990s due a supposed curse.
Cap and his triangular shield keep appearing, Invaders Annual 1, the recent Ravencroft Dracula issue, that is not too big an issue and we even have an in-story explanation anyway, see next paragraph.
Due to occult interference the heroes' appearances keep shifting to present, past and future versions from one panel to the next, particularly in issue 3. This gives us some leeway. This influence obviously reaches back in time since it affects 1944 Invaders with Cap turning into Major Gamma and sporting a triangular shield. It can explain any variation in costume we might want to disregard (Human Torch, Namor, Captain America, etc), which only leaves DD in NY and Sue in costume with the FF to account for. If we pick a time when Sue is not separated from Reed, we can have a spot where she was in the Baxter Building with civilian clothes and appeared in her past costume only due to the occult influence.
With these provisos, the series could possibly be placed shortly after the Avengers-Defenders conflict or after DS 34 or at another time.
PS: Does someone have a handy list of changes to teams and characters with dates? Such as when Crystal, Medusa, Luke Cage are in the FF, when Johnny has his red uniform, when DD is in San Francisco, when Namor has his blue costume, when Iron Man has his nose, etc.?
It's a bit early to relegate to the non-canon list. The Defenders and Avengers members are long-time members and the story could take place at several points until the mid-80s. The Defenders' status as a non-team means we can also look at any time when Nighthawk, Hellcat, etc. were members.
The five original Defenders are in Defenders 98-101 although that is a story without breaks. By the time they appear in Def 124, the Hulk has Banner's mind. Beyond that they do not appear until the 1990s due a supposed curse.
Cap and his triangular shield keep appearing, Invaders Annual 1, the recent Ravencroft Dracula issue, that is not too big an issue and we even have an in-story explanation anyway, see next paragraph.
Due to occult interference the heroes' appearances keep shifting to present, past and future versions from one panel to the next, particularly in issue 3. This gives us some leeway. This influence obviously reaches back in time since it affects 1944 Invaders with Cap turning into Major Gamma and sporting a triangular shield. It can explain any variation in costume we might want to disregard (Human Torch, Namor, Captain America, etc), which only leaves DD in NY and Sue in costume with the FF to account for. If we pick a time when Sue is not separated from Reed, we can have a spot where she was in the Baxter Building with civilian clothes and appeared in her past costume only due to the occult influence.
With these provisos, the series could possibly be placed shortly after the Avengers-Defenders conflict or after DS 34 or at another time.
PS: Does someone have a handy list of changes to teams and characters with dates? Such as when Crystal, Medusa, Luke Cage are in the FF, when Johnny has his red uniform, when DD is in San Francisco, when Namor has his blue costume, when Iron Man has his nose, etc.?
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Midnighter
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Re: Tarot #1
Daredevil is in New York in DD 108-109 and MTIO 3. This is around Giant Size Avengers 1 (wich is consistent with the lineup of Avengers in Tarot) but after Defenders 14, when Sub-Mariner leaves the Defenders and his place is taken by Nighthawk.
I know that the continuity of Hulk in this period is very complicated and move things around could be problematic. We can assume that Namor is back only for this emergency and Nighthawk was unavalaible...
EDIT: No, I see now that Invisible Girl's presence at Baxter Building is another problem... A short visit of Daredevil in New York is the better explanation maybe...
I know that the continuity of Hulk in this period is very complicated and move things around could be problematic. We can assume that Namor is back only for this emergency and Nighthawk was unavalaible...
EDIT: No, I see now that Invisible Girl's presence at Baxter Building is another problem... A short visit of Daredevil in New York is the better explanation maybe...
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StrayLamb
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Re: Tarot #1
Crystal was with the FF from FF 81 to 105.Leoparis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:49 amPS: Does someone have a handy list of changes to teams and characters with dates? Such as when Crystal, Medusa, Luke Cage are in the FF, when Johnny has his red uniform, when DD is in San Francisco, when Namor has his blue costume, when Iron Man has his nose, etc.?
Medusa from FF 133 to 159.
Luke Cage from FF 168 to 170.
Johnny Storm had his red costume from FF 132 to 159.
DD was in San Francisco from DD 87 to 138, but was in New York for DD 108-109 and MTIO 3.
Namor was in the blue costume from SUB 67 to SVTU 5.
Iron Man had a nose from IM 68 to 85.
I first thought about placing Tarot after A 146, and between DEF 29 & DS2 10. It fits nicely for the Avengers and each of the Defenders, except that Namor's in the wrong costume, and DD should be in San Francisco. Yes, he could be in NYC for a visit, but he seems very casual, like he's there all the time, and Spidey, who knows he's in SF, doesn't make any mention of him being in NYC. I actually made quite an argument for that placement, but then decided it didn't work and tossed it out.
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Re: Tarot #1
Tarot has to take place after Defenders 10 (November 1973) This is the same month Namor gets the blue costume until Apr 1976. But DD is in SF until Oct 1976.
Medusa from FF 133 (April 1973) to 159 (June 1975)
Luke Cage from FF 168 (March 1976) to 170 (May 1976)
Johnny Storm had his red costume from FF 132 (March 1973) to 159 (June 1975)
DD was in San Francisco from DD 87 (May 1972) to 138 (Oct 1976), but was in New York for DD 108-109 and MTIO 3 (March-May 1974)
Namor was in the blue costume from SUB 67 (November 1973) to SVTU 5 (April 1976)
Iron Man had a nose from IM 68 (June 1974) to 85 (April 1976)
Sue Richards separated from Reed, FF 143 (Feb 1974) to 147 (June 1974)
Valkyrie metallic costumes Def 40-41 (Oct-Nov 76), from 47 (May 77) to 68 (Feb 1979), from 69 (Mar 79) to 89 (Nov 1980)
Dr Strange not with Defenders from Def 46 (Apr 77) to Def 69 (Mar 1979)
Doctor Strange 34 (Apr 1979) Cyrus Black
Return of the 3 original from Defenders 78 (Dec 1979) to 85 (July 1980) but Val in metallic costume
Defenders 92-93 (Feb-Mar 1981) Namor with Defenders
So this is either very shortly after Avengers-Defenders, Johnny and Sue's costumes are discrepancies due to the occult reality-altering effect. And DD was in NY.
Or this is post Apr 76 (IM, Namor, Johnny, Sue are back in the usual costumes), preferably post Oct 76 (DD is back in NY) but before Def 46 (Apr 77) (Strange leaves Defenders and Valkyrie gets metallic costume in following issue) and before FF 176 (Nov 76, Richards losing his powers until FF 200, Nov 1978). (With the reality-altering effect he could shift to a past/future self)
Or between Def 68 (Val in classic costume) & Def 69 (Mar 1979) Strange returns to Defenders.
We have four of the original Defenders in Def 92-93 in the correct costumes. Since the Surfer does not change costume and is always available for stories, that is a very promising spot.
I don't have Avengers volumes (Essentials) available to check if it would line up for the Avengers.
Medusa from FF 133 (April 1973) to 159 (June 1975)
Luke Cage from FF 168 (March 1976) to 170 (May 1976)
Johnny Storm had his red costume from FF 132 (March 1973) to 159 (June 1975)
DD was in San Francisco from DD 87 (May 1972) to 138 (Oct 1976), but was in New York for DD 108-109 and MTIO 3 (March-May 1974)
Namor was in the blue costume from SUB 67 (November 1973) to SVTU 5 (April 1976)
Iron Man had a nose from IM 68 (June 1974) to 85 (April 1976)
Sue Richards separated from Reed, FF 143 (Feb 1974) to 147 (June 1974)
Valkyrie metallic costumes Def 40-41 (Oct-Nov 76), from 47 (May 77) to 68 (Feb 1979), from 69 (Mar 79) to 89 (Nov 1980)
Dr Strange not with Defenders from Def 46 (Apr 77) to Def 69 (Mar 1979)
Doctor Strange 34 (Apr 1979) Cyrus Black
Return of the 3 original from Defenders 78 (Dec 1979) to 85 (July 1980) but Val in metallic costume
Defenders 92-93 (Feb-Mar 1981) Namor with Defenders
So this is either very shortly after Avengers-Defenders, Johnny and Sue's costumes are discrepancies due to the occult reality-altering effect. And DD was in NY.
Or this is post Apr 76 (IM, Namor, Johnny, Sue are back in the usual costumes), preferably post Oct 76 (DD is back in NY) but before Def 46 (Apr 77) (Strange leaves Defenders and Valkyrie gets metallic costume in following issue) and before FF 176 (Nov 76, Richards losing his powers until FF 200, Nov 1978). (With the reality-altering effect he could shift to a past/future self)
Or between Def 68 (Val in classic costume) & Def 69 (Mar 1979) Strange returns to Defenders.
We have four of the original Defenders in Def 92-93 in the correct costumes. Since the Surfer does not change costume and is always available for stories, that is a very promising spot.
I don't have Avengers volumes (Essentials) available to check if it would line up for the Avengers.
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StrayLamb
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Re: Tarot #1
That would place between A 206 & IH@ 11 for the Avengers. The line-up at this time includes Beast, Captain America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Wasp and Wonder Man. Thor would be placed between FF 225 & IH@ 11, so this works for all of the Avengers. The FF would appear between FF 227 & IH@ 11. Daredevil looks like he would be between DD 168 & ASM 218. Spidey between ASM 212 & IH@ 11.Leoparis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:39 pmWe have four of the original Defenders in Def 92-93 in the correct costumes. Since the Surfer does not change costume and is always available for stories, that is a very promising spot.
I don't have Avengers volumes (Essentials) available to check if it would line up for the Avengers.
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Tarot #1-4
Thanks Nick!
Now, is anyone ready to look at all the cameos in issue 4: Black Panther, Alpha Flight, Crimson Dynamo, Sabra, Adam Warlock, Nova, Imperial Guard, Squadron Supreme, Spider-Ham, Captain Britain, New X-Men with Phoenix, Captain Mar-Vell.
Early 1981 is a bit too late for Phoenix, far too late for Adam Warlock.
Looking at StrayLamb's chrono, it could fit between X-Men 101 and Def 42:
X-Men 101 (1 - 6) Phoenix
**Tarot 1-4 insert here
**Avengers 160 move here
Amazing Spider-Man 167-170
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure 1-5
Skull the Slayer 1-8
War of the Realms: War Scrolls 1 (1-2) DD Thor early meeting (I would not place this here http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 837#p58837)
Marvel Two-in-One 26
Marvel Two-in-One 27 (1 - 5)
Champions 11-13
Ghost Rider 22-24
Defenders 47 (12:5-12:6)-FB ~ Defenders 51 (4:2-4:3)-FB
Marvel Two-in-One 27 (6 - 17) [Presidential inauguration, January 20]
Defenders 57 (1 - 4:3)-FB Valkyrie back in usual costume.
Defenders 42-43
I would suggest a break between Avengers 159 & 160 so that we retain Cap, IM and Thor in the membership (they depart at the beginning of 160).
This would be between the FF break in 176, after DD 144, after Nova 4, after Captain Marvel 44.
This would be Alpha Flight, Sabra, Spider-Ham, Imperial Guard earlier appearances.
Namor before MTIO 28. Adam Warlock before MTU 55 (after in my chronology which puts MTU 53-55 circa IH 206 http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 739#p57590).
Something like this, dunno if that works:
Note: by the way I call the combined team in Tarot "Defengers."
Thanks to StrayLamb, Midnighter, DonCampbell. I would not have confronted the task if you had not cleared the field and paved the way. I do not guarantee this is foolproof and I welcome any and all comments.
Now, is anyone ready to look at all the cameos in issue 4: Black Panther, Alpha Flight, Crimson Dynamo, Sabra, Adam Warlock, Nova, Imperial Guard, Squadron Supreme, Spider-Ham, Captain Britain, New X-Men with Phoenix, Captain Mar-Vell.
Early 1981 is a bit too late for Phoenix, far too late for Adam Warlock.
Looking at StrayLamb's chrono, it could fit between X-Men 101 and Def 42:
X-Men 101 (1 - 6) Phoenix
**Tarot 1-4 insert here
**Avengers 160 move here
Amazing Spider-Man 167-170
Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure 1-5
Skull the Slayer 1-8
War of the Realms: War Scrolls 1 (1-2) DD Thor early meeting (I would not place this here http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 837#p58837)
Marvel Two-in-One 26
Marvel Two-in-One 27 (1 - 5)
Champions 11-13
Ghost Rider 22-24
Defenders 47 (12:5-12:6)-FB ~ Defenders 51 (4:2-4:3)-FB
Marvel Two-in-One 27 (6 - 17) [Presidential inauguration, January 20]
Defenders 57 (1 - 4:3)-FB Valkyrie back in usual costume.
Defenders 42-43
I would suggest a break between Avengers 159 & 160 so that we retain Cap, IM and Thor in the membership (they depart at the beginning of 160).
This would be between the FF break in 176, after DD 144, after Nova 4, after Captain Marvel 44.
This would be Alpha Flight, Sabra, Spider-Ham, Imperial Guard earlier appearances.
Namor before MTIO 28. Adam Warlock before MTU 55 (after in my chronology which puts MTU 53-55 circa IH 206 http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 739#p57590).
Something like this, dunno if that works:
Spoiler:
Thanks to StrayLamb, Midnighter, DonCampbell. I would not have confronted the task if you had not cleared the field and paved the way. I do not guarantee this is foolproof and I welcome any and all comments.
Re: Tarot #1
Nighthawk started appearing with the Defenders in #12 (February, 1974). He has a new headquarters constructed for the team in #17 (November, 1974. He remains a member on-and-off until getting "killed" in #106 (April, 1982).Leoparis wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:49 am Some random remarks:
It's a bit early to relegate to the non-canon list. The Defenders and Avengers members are long-time members and the story could take place at several points until the mid-80s. The Defenders' status as a non-team means we can also look at any time when Nighthawk, Hellcat, etc. were members.
Hellcat started appearing with the Defenders in #44 (March, 1977). She remains a member on-and-off until her wedding in #125 (November, 1983).
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StrayLamb
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Re: Tarot #1-4
A 160 follows on directly from A 157-159, and the only place to split it is after Iron Man and Thor leave. I would suggest if you want to place TAROT 1-4 in this region, it should go before A 157, either before or after M/SSPEC 1 for Thor, and before X 98 for Jean Grey. Everyone else looks to be in the same place. Sorry, but i think your list here is a bit dodgy. It has characters out of place for their individual chronologies as listed in the MCP. I know you have your own chrono for Hulk, but unless that gets incorporated into the MCP at some point, we should stick to the established character chronologies wherever possible.Leoparis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:49 amI would suggest a break between Avengers 159 & 160 so that we retain Cap, IM and Thor in the membership (they depart at the beginning of 160).
This would be between the FF break in 176, after DD 144, after Nova 4, after Captain Marvel 44.
This would be Alpha Flight, Sabra, Spider-Ham, Imperial Guard earlier appearances.
Namor before MTIO 28. Adam Warlock before MTU 55 (after in my chronology which puts MTU 53-55 circa IH 206 http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 739#p57590).
Something like this, dunno if that works:Spoiler:
That's what we like to call teamwork! And thanks for your efforts in trying to place Tarot.
I was ready to throw it at the wall.
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Tarot #1-4
It's not that I wanted to place it around Av 157-160, it is that I wanted to have it at a time when Nova and Phoenix were around (so after X 101), before Adam Warlock's death, with Val and Namor in the correct costumes, and with a majority of the teams' line-ups matching, in particular Dr. Strange leading the Defenders.
There is a simpler solution, which is all these additional characters are from an alternate timeline and there is no need to find a spot which accomodates them even if their alternate-world presence points to the years 1976-80 rather than to 1973. So all versions that appear along with the Defengers in #3-4 are from an alternate universe. And in the case the FF, DD, Spider-Man in #2-3 did not fit, so could they. After all Namor is affected by impossible memories from the first panel in the present day.
Notes:
1. The characters who appear after the merging of the Avengers & Defenders are not included. They are from from a world that diverged in 1944.
2. Note that in issues #2 and #3 characters tend to shift into past and future appearances. Therefore Valkyrie being addressed as Brunnhilda does not mean this story has to occur after Defenders 68. The Brunnhilda identity is a past as well as a future identity for her.
3. Dr Strange travels back in time to meet Galactus at a time when the Silver Surfer is still his herald. Lacking any reference, I assume he traveled to 1944, the time when the divergence occurs. So I placed this appearance before SS3 129, the Galactus of 1947.
4. The 1944 flashback in #1 occurs on the divergent timeline. The 616 version is as shown in #4. Since we see US troops in France, "Winter 1944" refers to the 1944-1945 winter, so this can be pinpointed to December.
BLACK, CYRUS
DEF 6
TAROT 1
DS2 34
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
WSOL:WK-FB
TAROT 4
INVN 1-FB-FB
...
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
CM 50
DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK
M/TE 13
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
M/TU 56
DIABLO
FF 194-FB
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
FF 193
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 57-FB
FANDRAL
T 255
TAROT 3
T 256
GALACTUS
S&L 3/4
TAROT 3
SS3 129
HEIMDALL
T 248
TAROT 3
T 267
HOGUN
T 255
TAROT 3
T 256
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 57-FB
HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND
WSOL:WK-FB-BTS
TAROT 4
INVN 1-FB-FB
HUMAN TORCH/JOHNNY STORM
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TIO 27
RAMH2 4
INVISIBLE GIRL /SUSAN STORM RICHARDS
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TIO 27
RAMH2 4
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
A 160
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
M/TIO 28-BTS
KANG THE CONQUEROR
AFVR 9 (11:5)-FB
TAROT 2
IH2 286-BTS
MEPHISTO
M/SSPEC 1
TAROT 3
TOD 63-FB-BTS
MISTER FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TU@ 1-BTS
M/TIO 27
NAMELESS ONE
DEF 20
TAROT 1-BTS
TAROT 2-BTS
TAROT 3-BTS
TAROT 4
DSSS 41
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
M/TE 13
A 160
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
CM 50
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
TOD 50
SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
ASM 170
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
MTU@ 1
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
WSOL:WK-FB
TAROT 4
INVN 1-FB-FB
...
SVTU 12
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
M/TIO 28
THING/BEN GRIMM
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TIO 26
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"
A 160
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
T 256
UATU
M/TIO 20
TAROT 2
WI? 1
VALKYRIE/BRUNNHILDE/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS
IH2 207
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 57-FB
VOLSTAGG
T 255
TAROT 3
T 256
VISION II
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
MSMS 5
WONG
IH2 207
TAROT 3
DEF 44
New characters (unsure whether they are actual dimensional beings or fictional constructs, probably the former):
COMET CAPONE
TAROT 3
NINA NOVA
TAROT 3
VARMINT
TAROT 3
VIKTOR VILE
TAROT 3
DEVIL DAWG
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
MIGHTY MARTIAN
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
SHA WUJING
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
SUN WUKONG
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
VAMPIRE VIXEN
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
There is a simpler solution, which is all these additional characters are from an alternate timeline and there is no need to find a spot which accomodates them even if their alternate-world presence points to the years 1976-80 rather than to 1973. So all versions that appear along with the Defengers in #3-4 are from an alternate universe. And in the case the FF, DD, Spider-Man in #2-3 did not fit, so could they. After all Namor is affected by impossible memories from the first panel in the present day.
Notes:
1. The characters who appear after the merging of the Avengers & Defenders are not included. They are from from a world that diverged in 1944.
2. Note that in issues #2 and #3 characters tend to shift into past and future appearances. Therefore Valkyrie being addressed as Brunnhilda does not mean this story has to occur after Defenders 68. The Brunnhilda identity is a past as well as a future identity for her.
3. Dr Strange travels back in time to meet Galactus at a time when the Silver Surfer is still his herald. Lacking any reference, I assume he traveled to 1944, the time when the divergence occurs. So I placed this appearance before SS3 129, the Galactus of 1947.
4. The 1944 flashback in #1 occurs on the divergent timeline. The 616 version is as shown in #4. Since we see US troops in France, "Winter 1944" refers to the 1944-1945 winter, so this can be pinpointed to December.
BLACK, CYRUS
DEF 6
TAROT 1
DS2 34
CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
WSOL:WK-FB
TAROT 4
INVN 1-FB-FB
...
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
CM 50
DAREDEVIL/MATT MURDOCK
M/TE 13
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
M/TU 56
DIABLO
FF 194-FB
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
FF 193
DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 57-FB
FANDRAL
T 255
TAROT 3
T 256
GALACTUS
S&L 3/4
TAROT 3
SS3 129
HEIMDALL
T 248
TAROT 3
T 267
HOGUN
T 255
TAROT 3
T 256
HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 57-FB
HUMAN TORCH/JIM HAMMOND
WSOL:WK-FB-BTS
TAROT 4
INVN 1-FB-FB
HUMAN TORCH/JOHNNY STORM
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TIO 27
RAMH2 4
INVISIBLE GIRL /SUSAN STORM RICHARDS
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TIO 27
RAMH2 4
IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
A 160
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
M/TIO 28-BTS
KANG THE CONQUEROR
AFVR 9 (11:5)-FB
TAROT 2
IH2 286-BTS
MEPHISTO
M/SSPEC 1
TAROT 3
TOD 63-FB-BTS
MISTER FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TU@ 1-BTS
M/TIO 27
NAMELESS ONE
DEF 20
TAROT 1-BTS
TAROT 2-BTS
TAROT 3-BTS
TAROT 4
DSSS 41
SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
M/TE 13
A 160
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
CM 50
SILVER SURFER/NORRIN RADD
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
TOD 50
SPIDER-MAN/PETER PARKER
ASM 170
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
MTU@ 1
SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
WSOL:WK-FB
TAROT 4
INVN 1-FB-FB
...
SVTU 12
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
M/TIO 28
THING/BEN GRIMM
M/TE 13
TAROT 3
M/TIO 26
THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"
A 160
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
T 256
UATU
M/TIO 20
TAROT 2
WI? 1
VALKYRIE/BRUNNHILDE/SISTER BARBARA DENTON NORRISS
IH2 207
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 57-FB
VOLSTAGG
T 255
TAROT 3
T 256
VISION II
M/TE 13
TAROT 1
TAROT 2
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
DEF 44-FB
MSMS 5
WONG
IH2 207
TAROT 3
DEF 44
New characters (unsure whether they are actual dimensional beings or fictional constructs, probably the former):
COMET CAPONE
TAROT 3
NINA NOVA
TAROT 3
VARMINT
TAROT 3
VIKTOR VILE
TAROT 3
DEVIL DAWG
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
MIGHTY MARTIAN
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
SHA WUJING
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
SUN WUKONG
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
VAMPIRE VIXEN
TAROT 3
TAROT 4
Last edited by Leoparis on Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
StrayLamb
- Director
- Posts: 2359
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
- Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway
Re: Tarot #1
What if we place Tarot after A 160 & X 101 (1 - 6), ignore that Iron Man and Thor have taken off, assume they haven't gone that far away that they can't quickly be called back, and have them appear in Tarot before their next individual placements. Would that work? 
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.