Hulk & Thing: Hard Knocks and Fantastic Four 12

[Leoparis]

The Hard Knocks mini-series retells FF 12 with added information. Currently FF 12 is chopped unnecessarily in 15 segments and Hard Knocks (HK) as well. But above all it cannot work as is, due to discrepancies between characters:

a. Per the MCP, the 20:1 flashback in HK 3 takes place after FF 12 for Reed and Johnny but between 23:6 and 23:7 for Ben and Sue and it has the wrong range of pages. This flashback extends over 4 pages and should be (17-20); it takes place after FF 12 for all four plus Hulk. Cf breakdown on ranges further.

b. The flashback in HK 4 is included for the Hulk but missing for the Thing.

c. Most of the BTS should be OP. Sometimes characters marked BTS are right there on the panel--Sue for HK 3 (16:4-16:5).

d. The (11-12) flashback in HK 2 is in the wrong place for Sue and Ross. (In the nearly correct place for Ben, missing for Reed & Johnny.)

The following correspondence chart I created shows a few things:
FF 12 (1-5)
FF 12 (6:1 - 7:1) = HK 2 (11:1)
FF 12 (7:2) = HK 2 (11:2)
FF 12 (7:3)
HK 2 (11:3 - 12) Thing losing it FF Ross
FF 12 (7:4 - 9:5)
FF 12 (9:5) = HK 2 (16:5 - 16:6)
FF 12 (9:6) = HK 2 (16:6 - 17:1)
HK 2 (17:2) Richards / Banner OP
FF 12 (10:1) = HK 2 (17:3)
FF 12 (10:2) = HK 2 (17:4)
FF 12 (17:5) = HK 2 (18:2)
FF 12 (17:6) = HK 2 (18:3)
FF 12 (17:7) = HK 2 (18:4) = HK 3 (5:2)
FF 12 (18:1) = HK 2 (19:1-2) = HK 3 (5:3)
FF 12 (18:2) = HK 2 (19:3) = HK 3 (5:4)
FF 12 (18:3) = HK 2 (20:1)
FF 12 (18:3) = HK 3 (6)
FF 12 (18:4) = HK 3 (7:1)
FF 12 (18:5) = HK 3 (7:2)
FF 12 (18:6) = HK 3 (7:3)
FF 12 (18:7) = HK 3 (7:4)
FF 12 (19:1)
FF 12 (19:2) = HK 3 (8:2)
FF 12 (19:3)
FF 12 (19:4) = HK 3 (7:4)
FF 12 (19:5) = HK 3 (8:1)
FF 12 (19:6) = HK 2 (20:1)
FF 12 (20:1)
FF 12 (20:2) = HK 2 (20:1)
FF 12 (20:3)
FF 12 (20:4) = HK 3 (8:3)
FF 12 (20:5-6) = HK 3 (8:4)
FF 12 (20:6) = HK 3 (9)
FF 12 (20:7) = HK 3 (11:1 - 11:2)
FF 12 (21:1) = HK 3 (11:3)
FF 12 (21:2)
FF 12 (21:3) = HK 3 (12:3)
FF 12 (21:4) = HK 3 (12:4)
FF 12 (21:5 - 22:5)
FF 12 (22:6) = HK 3 (13:4)
FF 12 (22:7) = HK 3 (13:5)
FF 12 (22:7 - 23:1)
FF 12 (23:2) = HK 3 (16:3)
HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5) Thing drifting away
FF 12 (23:3 - 23:7)
HK 3 (17 - 20) FF vacation in South Seas
HK 3 (21 - 22) finds Hulk
HK 4 (1-4) fights Hulk
HK 4 (5:1) = photo HK 2 (22) Hulk Thing
HK 4 (6-8) Hulk Thing

1. The writer is extremely faithful, a few times condensing information from two or three panels into one but mostly using the same panels (drawn from various angles and viewpoints by the penciler).

2. He adds three scenes to FF 12, the first two forecasting the third, which is a follow-up story taking place AFTER the end of FF 12:
a) The scene in HK 2 (11:3 - 12) shows the Thing going off his rocker during the Ross briefing (manic episode).
b) The scene HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5) shows the Thing drifting away after the saboteur has been delivered to the army (depressive episode).
c) HK 3 (17-20)-FB shows the Thing having a mental breakdown when in vacation with the FF. HK 3 (21-22)-FB and HK 4 (1-8)-FB are the Thing's rematch with the Hulk. These are said to take place weeks after the FF left the base, and not before their departure in the last panel of FF 12 as currently indexed.

3. There is added dialog in HK 2 (17:2) between Richards & Banner.

4. Beyond that, all added panels are merely descriptions of an already shown event.

This gives us the following ranges for FF 12 and HK:
FF 12 (1-7:3) Alicia Johnny Reed Sue Ben Ross
HK 2 (11:3 - 12)-FB Johnny Reed Sue Ben Ross
FF 12 (7:4 - 9) Johnny Reed Sue Ben Ross Bruce Rick Kort
HK 2 (17:2)-FB Richards / Banner-OP
FF 12 (10 - 23:2) Johnny Reed Sue Ben Ross Bruce Rick Kort
HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB Ross Reed Ben Sue
FF 12 (23:3 - 23:7) Johnny Reed Sue Ben Ross Bruce Rick Kort
HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB Johnny Reed Sue Ben Hulk
HK 4-FB Ben Hulk

Only four segments are necessary for FF 12 and no more than three for any individual issue of HK.

We know precisely where each inserted flashback goes thanks to the writer using the very dialog from FF 12.
HK 2 (11:1 - 11:2) is using condensed dialog from FF 12 (6:1 - 7:2). So the Thing's scene goes between 7:3 and 7:4 just before the Torch's intervention.

HK 2 (16:6 - 17:1) has dialog from FF 12 (9:6). HK 2 (17:3) has dialog from FF 12 (10:1). So HK 2 (17:2) takes place between pages 9 & 10 of FF 12. No need for Banner's OP per http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 835#p52181.

HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5) occurs right after the FF deliver Kort to Ross in FF 12 (23:2). HK 3 (16:3) condenses two elements, one from FF 12 (22:2) [Sue helping a tied Rick Jones] and another from FF 12 (23:2) [delivering Kort to Ross and dialog from Banner attributed to Sue]. The Thing drifts away between Reed's dialog with Ross & Banner.

HK 3 (17-20) is a South Seas vacation for the FF where the Thing has a psychotic break followed by him finding and fighting the Hulk in HK 3 (21-22) and HK 4 (1-8). It occurs after the FF departure on FF 12 (23:7) not during the single night before their departure. For one thing they're at the other end of the world in the South Seas and have no reason to return to the Southwest army base, for another the Thing goes missing "for weeks" before confronting the Hulk again in HK 3-FB & 4-FB. None of the other FF are present for the return match. Not only they wouldn't stay at the base for weeks looking for the Thing but they do not even know he is at the base since he disappeared while they were in the South Seas.

The page range for the HK 2 and HK 3 flashbacks need to be indicated due to the mixing of old scenes and new scenes in these two issues (otherwise people might pick the wrong flashback and assume we made a mistake).

Karl Kort has an earlier appearance, unnamed, in the staff meeting seen on panels 2 & 7 of page 3 of Hulk 3. It's obviously the same civilian that we see in the meeting in FF 12 also attending an earlier staff meeting with Ross.

Alicia's chronology is unchanged.

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
IH 5/2
*FF 12 (1 - 9:6) change to FF 12 (7:4 - 9:6)
*H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB-BTS change to H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB-OP or delete which is our preference
*FF 12 (10:1 - 23:4) change to FF 12 (10 - 23)
*H/TG:HK 3-FB change to H/TG:HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB
H/TG:HK 4-FB
*FF 12 (23:7) delete
IH 6

HUMAN TORCH II/JONATHAN LOWELL SPENCER STORM
ST 107
*FF 12 change to FF 12 (1 - 7:3)
*H/TG:HK 2 (11:3 - 12)-FB add
*FF 12 (7:4 - 23) add
*H/TG:HK 3-FB change to H/TG:HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB
ST 108 (1 - 10)

INVISIBLE GIRL/SUE STORM
*FF 12 (1 - 5) change to FF 12 (1 - 7:3)
*H/TG:HK 2 (11 - 12)-FB change to HK 2 (11:3 - 12)-FB
*FF 12 (6 - 9) change to FF 12 (7:4 - 23:2)
*H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB-BTS delete
*FF 12 (10 - 23:4) delete
*H/TG:HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB (delete BTS)
*FF 12 (23:5 - 23:6) change to FF 12 (23:3 - 23:7)
*H/TG:HK 3 (20:1)-FB change to H/TG:HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB
*FF 12 (23:7)-BTS delete
FF 13

JONES, RICHARD MILHOUSE "RICK"
IH 5/2
*FF 12 add
*FF 12 (1 - 9) delete
*H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB-BTS delete
*FF 12 (10 - 23) delete
IH 6

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
*FF 12 change to FF 12 (1 - 7:3)
*H/TG:HK 2 (11:3 - 12)-FB add
*FF 12 (7:4 - 9:6) add
*H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB add
*FF 12 (10 - 23:2) add
*H/TG:HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB add
*FF 12 (23:3 - 23:7) add
*H/TG:HK 3-FB change to H/TG:HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB
FF 13-FB

ROSS, GEN. THADDEUS E. "THUNDERBOLT"
IH 5/2
*FF 12 (5:3 - 5:6) change to FF 12 (1 - 7:3)
*H/TG:HK 2 (11 - 12)-FB change to H/TG:HK 2 (11:3 - 12)-FB
*FF 12 (6 - 9) change to FF 12 (7:4 - 23:2)
*H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB-BTS delete
*FF 12 (10 - 23:4) delete
*H/TG:HK 3 (16:4)-FB change to H/TG:HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB
*FF 12 (23:5 - 23:6) change to FF 12 (23:3 - 23:7)
IH 6

THING II/BENJAMIN J. GRIMM
*FF 12 (1 - 7:5) change to FF 12 (1 - 7:3)
*H/TG:HK 2 (11 - 12)-FB change to H/TG:HK 2 (11:3 - 12)-FB
*FF 12 (6 - 9) change to FF 12 (7:4 - 23:2)
*H/TG:HK 2 (17:2)-FB delete
*FF 12 (10 - 23:4) delete
H/TG:HK 3 (16:4 - 16:5)-FB
*FF 12 (23:5 - 23:6) change to FF 12 (23:3 - 23:7)
*H/TG:HK 3 (20:1)-FB change to H/TG:HK 3 (17 - 22)-FB
*FF 12 (23:7)-BTS delete
*H/TG:HK 4-FB add
FF 13

WRECKER/DR. KARL KORT
*{IH 3} add
*FF 12 add
*FF 12 (1 - 9:5) delete
*H/TG:HK 2-FB-BTS delete
*FF 12 (10 - 23:3) delete

[michel]

I'm pulling this thread up because I'm reviewing how FF 12 and H/TG:HK 2-4 intertwine and the MCP listings don't fit. Leoparis makes a lot of good points here so I'm proposing them again.

[StrayLamb]

I agree with these revisions.