Elektra (limited series) from 1984 aka The Elektra Saga

[Leoparis]

This limited series retold in chronological order the Elektra story that had been elaborated between DD 168 and 190.

In issue 1 pages 21-25 are new. They take place between DD 190 (7-12) and Bizarre Adventures 28. They describe the circumstances that led Elektra to leave The Hand.

EL:ROE 2 (12:4 - 12:5)-FB
ELSAGA 3 (21-25)
BIZADV 28

In issue 3 panels 9-11 page 22 are new. They take place between DD 179 and 180.

DD 179
ELSAGA 3 (22:9-11)
DD 180

Looking at Elektra's chrono I notice that COH 2 is placed before DD 168 (Jan 1981). In COH 2 she kills ninjas from The Hand who turn to smoke. Yet The Hand does not cross Elektra's path in NY before DD 174 when they put a contract on Matt Murdock and she decides to interfere. At the end of DD 174 having just learned Elekra is in NY, the Jonin puts a contract on her. So this sequence takes place around DD 174-175. I could not tie it to a specific scene in either of these two issues so I place in between.

*COH 2 move from here
DD 168
DD 169
DD:FFG-FB
DD 174
*COH 2 move to here
DD 175

[michel]

In issue 1 pages 21-25 are new. They take place between DD 190 (7-12) and Bizarre Adventures 28. They describe the circumstances that led Elektra to leave The Hand.

EL:ROE 2 (12:4 - 12:5)-FB
ELSAGA 3 (21-25)
BIZADV 28

Just to point a typo : It should be ELSAGA 1 (21-25). Good job anyway ^^

[michel]

Looking at Elektra's chrono I notice that COH 2 is placed before DD 168 (Jan 1981). In COH 2 she kills ninjas from The Hand who turn to smoke. Yet The Hand does not cross Elektra's path in NY before DD 174 when they put a contract on Matt Murdock and she decides to interfere. At the end of DD 174 having just learned Elekra is in NY, the Jonin puts a contract on her. So this sequence takes place around DD 174-175. I could not tie it to a specific scene in either of these two issues so I place in between.

*COH 2 move from here
DD 168
DD 169
DD:FFG-FB
DD 174
*COH 2 move to here
DD 175

Leoparis, you've put COH 2 for Elektra between DD 174 and 175, for good reasons. But it's too late for Jeffrey Piper.

T 308 is intertwined with COH 3 (1 - 11)
Thor has T 308 before FF 225
The Fantastic Four have FF 225 before M/TU 100
Spider-Man has M/TU 100 before ASM 218 (8:6 - 9:5)
Daredevil has ASM 218 (8:6 - 9:5) before DD 169
So COH 3 (1 - 11) is before DD 169, and so COH 2 (34 - 36) should also be before DD 169. Maybe the Hand was in conflict with Elektra before DD 174.

ELEKTRA/ELEKTRA NATCHIOS
...
EL:A 8
COH 2 <-- MOVE TO HERE
DD 168
DD 169
DD:FFG-FB
DD 174
COH 2 <-- MOVE FROM HERE
DD 175
...

[Leoparis]

You claim the following sequence: Thor 308 Jun 81 > FF 225 Dec 80 > M/TU 100 Dec 80 > ASM 218 Jan 81 > DD 169 Mar 81
Is there actual evidence that puts this sequence in stone?

Looking at this, I'd say Thor 308 is in the wrong place.

The story in FF 225 looks like Moench is auditioning to write Thor (he writes a fill-in the next month in T 303 and starts as regular writer in T 308) so I don't see why T 308 comes before FF 225.

[michel]

It's not written in stone but it's what the current listings imply. Moving only Elektra induces an inconsistency, as I have shown. You can try again as long as you fix this inconvenience.

[michel]

You want to put COH 2 (31 - 36) after DD 174. T 308 and COH 3 (1 - 11:1) are entwined, that means T 308 must be after DD 174.
It's not implemented yet, but we have put the death of Captain Marvel just before DD 174 for Daredevil in this post. We did also put it between A 211 and A 212 for the Avengers.
T@ 9 was also moved in this thread.
That gives us this Thor's listing:

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
...
T@ 9
T 308 (1 - 11:5)
COH 3 (1 - 4)
T 308 (11:6 - 15)
COH 3 (5 - 8)
T 308 (16 - 23)
T 309
T 310
FF 225
IH@ 11
IH2 255
FF 230
M/GN 1 (1 - 30:1)
A@ 10
T 311
VLOKI 1-FB
M/TIO 92-FB
A 210
A 211
M/GN 1 (30:2 - 62)
SS@ 6-FB
A 212
...

DAREDEVIL/MATTHEW MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
...
ROM 23
MK 13
SS3 14-FB
M/GN 1
SS@ 6-FB
DD 174
DD 175
...

As you can see, moving T 308 after FF 225 won't be enough

[StrayLamb]

T 308-310 really is placed too early in Thor's chronology by both publication date and the evidence shown in COH 2-3. The MCP doesn't acknowledge calendar clues, but according to COH 3, the blizzards sent by Loki have extended into early June, placing this after A@ 10 in Thor's timeline, which makes a lot more sense than where these issues are currently placed. Regardless of that, Elektra's scene in COH 2 has to take place after the prologue in DD 174. If this is separated from the rest of the comic, then Elektra can encounter the Hand in Europe and catch a flight to NYC prior to her appearance in COH 2, which then takes place between DD 174 (1 - 3) & DD 174 (4 - 20). I'm not sure where the DD:FFG-FB occurs as i don't have that TPB.

So you would end up with DD 174 (1 - 3) --> COH 2 --> T 308/COH 3-T310 --> DD 174 (4 - 20)-175

[michel]

The problem with your suggestion is that Janet Piper is pregnant with her first child at the end of COH 2, and has a son and a daughter at the beginning of COH 3. That would put some huge gap between pages 3 and 4 of DD 174 ^^

[StrayLamb]

Yep. Going by the calendar, that's from May to August, which at least allows for some time to pass for Janet's pregnancy. Do we know how long Elektra was in NYC before making contact with Matt, or how far Janet was into her pregnancy, or if the birth was premature? Anyway, we ignore the calendar, so we should ignore the stated passage of time in favour of the story elements. We frequently have to ignore the passage of time for a given character.

For Elektra to be battling the Hand in NYC in COH 2, her placement really has to be between pages 3 & 4 of DD 174, regardless of Janet's pregnancy. As you stated, maybe Elektra was in conflict with the Hand prior to DD 174, but there's no need to resort to that speculation, when the placement can be made within the bounds of known facts.

[michel]

I'm beginning to really doubt the canonicity of COH. We already had to put the Werewolf-Moon Knight fight out of sequence because it happened way too earlier.

COH 2 (24): wedding is a month from now
COH 2 (25 - 30): Phoenix becomes Dark Phoenix (X 134-135)
COH 2 (31 - 33:3): wedding "a few weeks later" and honewymoon
COH 2 (33:4 - 36): Elektra vs Hand ninjas in New York (DD 174)
COH 2 (37 - 38:3): cameos of Luke Cage and Dr. Strange
COH 2 (38:4 - 40): "It's been a year since" Father Delgado married Jeffrey. He has visitors, Cloak & Dagger, so it should be in between pages of CAD 1 at the earliest, not before.
COH 2 (41 - 44): Janet finds out she's pregnant
COH 3 (1 - 11:1): Snow in June, Thor vs Frost Giant = T 308. Michael looks around 4-5, he can have a conversation with his mother. Marisa eats normal food, looks around 1-2.
COH 3 (11:2 - 18): Punisher arrested = ASM@ 15
COH 3 (19 - 20): Cloak & Dagger
COH 3 (21 - 44): Secret Wars

Now look at the line numbers in my timeline reflecting the listings of the MCP:
X 135 11089
DD 174 12409
CAD 1 13529
5-year gap
T 308 11782
ASM@ 15 12382
Secret Wars 13891

There's no way this can work. It could work if Elektra is not from DD 174 and Cloak & Dagger is not from CAD 1, and overlooking the 5-year gap between X 135 and T 308. But clearly the writer and the editor of COH didn't do a very serious job.

[StrayLamb]

I'm beginning to really doubt the canonicity of COH. We already had to put the Werewolf-Moon Knight fight out of sequence because it happened way too earlier.
---
There's no way this can work. It could work if Elektra is not from DD 174 and Cloak & Dagger is not from CAD 1, and overlooking the 5-year gap between X 135 and T 308. But clearly the writer and the editor of COH didn't do a very serious job.

I totally agree. I noticed the C&D problem as well. The concept of looking at the heroes from the perspective of a street cop is a good one, but the result is a bit of a poor man's Marvels. It's narrated in the first person, and we can put chronological errors down to a combination of faulty memory and the idea that Piper's more invested in telling a story than in getting the chronology straight, but even so..

The DD 174 prologue can be pushed back to early January, making a very short gap from DD 169, and a very long gap to DD 174. That works better for Janet's pregnancy, and allows Elektra to have a number of solo adventures during that time, which might be helpful somewhere down the track. Something has to give somewhere.

[Leoparis]

I'm beginning to really doubt the canonicity of COH.

I would treat it the way I've been treating the Loeb/Sale color series, include scenes but not necessarily in the order they're told in these memoirs whenever it is needed to reconcile with the original comics.

COH 2 (24): wedding is a month from now
COH 2 (25 - 30): Phoenix becomes Dark Phoenix (X 134-135)
COH 2 (31 - 33:3): wedding "a few weeks later" and honeymoon
COH 2 (33:4 - 36): Elektra vs Hand ninjas in New York (DD 174)
COH 2 (37 - 38:3): cameos of Luke Cage and Dr. Strange
COH 2 (38:4 - 40): "It's been a year since" Father Delgado married Jeffrey. He has visitors, Cloak & Dagger, so it should be in between pages of CAD 1 at the earliest, not before.

Why is that? Am I missing something? In CAD 1 it is stated C&D have known Delgado and used his church "for months". My understanding has always been they've probably known him since their early appearances.

COH 2 (41 - 44): Janet finds out she's pregnant
COH 3 (1 - 11:1): Snow in June, Thor vs Frost Giant = T 308. Michael looks around 4-5, he can have a conversation with his mother. Marisa eats normal food, looks around 1-2.
COH 3 (11:2 - 18): Punisher arrested = ASM@ 15
COH 3 (19 - 20): Cloak & Dagger
COH 3 (21 - 44): Secret Wars

I'm going to reinterpret events like this: Either Michael (and Marisa?) are children from a previous union, or if they're Jeff's children they were born before Jeff and Janet married. If both Michael and Marisa predate the wedding, then Janet's pregnancy resulted in miscarriage and that might have started the tensions in the couple.
Or Marisa is the child Janet was pregnant with.
Either way the Pipers' chronology is hardly the stuff that would break the space-time continuum.

Now look at the line numbers in my timeline reflecting the listings of the MCP:
X 135 11089
DD 174 12409
CAD 1 13529
5-year gap
T 308 11782
ASM@ 15 12382
Secret Wars 13891

There's no way this can work. It could work if Elektra is not from DD 174 and Cloak & Dagger is not from CAD 1, and overlooking the 5-year gap between X 135 and T 308. But clearly the writer and the editor of COH didn't do a very serious job.

They were trying to write a sequel of sorts taking place in the Bronze Age but they also needed character development from issue to issue, hence the breaking down of the marriage.

Looking at your chronology
X 135 11089
DD 174 12409
CAD 1 13529 not necessary
5-year gap let's forget this, it does not state there is a five-year gap
T 308 11782
ASM@ 15 12382
Secret Wars 13891

Can DD 174 occur before T 308 & ASM@ 15 is the problem to solve.

[StrayLamb]

Can DD 174 occur before T 308 & ASM@ 15 is the problem to solve.

Well, yes it can, by splitting DD 174 after the prologue, as i suggested above, placing the Elektra scenes in COH 2 after her encounter with the Hand in Paris and her flight to NYC, and by placing T 308-310 later in Thor's chronology. I'm not sure i like your chances, though.

[michel]

Why is that? Am I missing something? In CAD 1 it is stated C&D have known Delgado and used his church "for months". My understanding has always been they've probably known him since their early appearances.e.

I believe you're confusing CAD 1 with CAD2 1. In 1983 CAD 1, Cloak & Dagger introduce themselves to Father Delgado. In 1985 CAD2 1, they have used the church as a sanctuary for several months.

Concerning the children, COH is all about Piper and his family and we have a lot of details, Michael is clearly meant to be their first child.

[michel]

I would treat it the way I've been treating the Loeb/Sale color series, include scenes but not necessarily in the order they're told in these memoirs whenever it is needed to reconcile with the original comics.

That's possible for memories, they are not necessarily remembered in chronological order, but COH is about Jeffrey Piper's life and it's quite linear:

COH 1: cop rookie, mid 70es, meets and dates Janet, his mother doesn't like her (Janet's catholic and the Pipers are baptists) but he proposes.
COH 2: mid to late 70es, marries Janet though his mother is against it, Janet finds out she's pregnant.
COH 3: mid 80es, time has passed, Michael is circa 4 or 5, Marisa circa 1 or 2. Jeffrey and Janet break up, with a quick rapprochement during Secret Wars
COH 4: mid to late 80es, Jeffrey and Janet slowly come back together.

We can excise some moments not related to Jeffrey's life, like Werewolf-Moon Knight and maybe Elektra, but not the most of them.