Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl

[StrayLamb]

Looking at the listings for various characters who appear in Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl, i notice that in the Hulk chronology MM:MOTP is listed quite a bit further down the chronology compared with the other characters. In Hulk, MM:MOTP is listed somewhat after ASM@ 3, whereas in Giant-Man it is placed soemwhat earlier than ASM@ 3. I believe he earlier listing is more compatible with the story, and fits well with the placement of MM:MOTP in the chronologies for Beast, Thing, and Mr Fantastic. A better placement for MM:MOTP within the Hulk chronology may be between TTA 79/2 & TTA 80/2. This would fit well withing Hulk's own internal chronology and be more compatible with the placement of MM:MOTP in the other characters chronologies. Cheers, Nick.

[Michael]

This website has a good summary of the problems in placing Monsters on the Prowl:
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronoco ... n_th.shtml

[StrayLamb]

I'd like to revisit this topic, if you don't mind. Since this topic was started, Hulk's position in MM:MOTP has been moved to a position between TTA 79/2 and TTA 80/2 as proposed above, but i think a couple of other characters need tweaking as well. With the alteration to Hulk's chronology, Mole Man needs to be moved as well, as MM:MOTP still shows after TTA 81/2 in his chronology, and needs to be moved back to before TTA 80/2.

MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER
FF@ 3
M/M:MOTP *MOVE TO HERE
TTA 80/2
TTA 81/2
M/M:MOTP *MOVE FROM HERE
A 40

I would also like to propose minor changes to the position of MM:MOTP in Hank Pym and Reed Richards chronologies. We know that MM:MOTP must take place after FF 51, but it doesn't necessarily have to occur during A 26 and A 27, or TTA 77/1 and TTA 78/1 (i'm making the distinction /1 in order to prevent confusion with TTA 77/2, etc.), where it seems to be placed simply to give a reason for Wasp not to have accompanied Giant-Man in MM:MOTP.

If we place MM:MOTP immediately after FF 51 and immediately before TTA 77/1, and allowing Wasp not to have accompanied Giant-Man for any number of possible reasons, then the Avengers and TTA's don't have to be broken up so much. The Collector chronology already has MM:MOTP listed prior to A 26, which i believe is correct. The only changes required would be for Hank Pym and Reed Richards, as follows..

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
FF 49
FF 50
SS3 123-FB
A 27-BTS *MOVE FROM HERE
FF 51
M/M:MOTP
A 27-BTS *MOVE TO HERE
FF 52
FF 53

GIANT-MAN/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
A 22
M/M:MOTP *MOVE TO HERE
TTA 77
TTA 78 (1 - 7:3:1)
A 26 (5:3)
TTA 78 (7:3:2 - 7:4)
A 26 (5:4)
TTA 78 (7:5)
A 26 (5:5)
M/M:MOTP *MOVE FROM HERE
A 27-BTS

The overall combined chronology would appear like this..

TTA 78/2-79/2 [Hulk returns from the future, encounters Hercules]
FF 51 [Reed discovers the Negative Zone]
MM:MOTP [The Collector's monsters escape; Giant-Man, Thing, Hulk & Beast round them up]
TTA 77/1 [Namor confronts Hank Pym on his research platform]
TTA 78/1 (1-7:3:1) [Janet suggest to Hank that he could get to NYC before Namor if he became Giant-Man, but he tells her he can't leave his work]
A 26 (1-4) [Cap explains the use of the Visi-Projector]
TTA 78/1 (7:3:2-8:1) ~ A 26 (5:1-5:6) [Janet transforms into the Wasp, and heads off to warn the Avengers]
A 26 (5:7-20) [Janet is abducted by Attuma, gets a signal to the Avengers, who leave a message for Hawkeye]
A 27 [Hawkeye borrows an Aero-Sub from Mr Fantastic]
A 28-29 [The Avengers rescue Wasp from the Collector; now Goliath, Hank gets stuck at ten feet tall]
TTA 80/2-81/2 [Hulk is abducted by Tyrannus, battles Mole Man]

[Michael]

The problem is that Marvels 3 makes it seem like Attuma's flood in A 26 took place before FF 49-50.

[StrayLamb]

The problem is that Marvels 3 makes it seem like Attuma's flood in A 26 took place before FF 49-50.

Possibly because A 26 was published a little earlier than FF 49-50. My view is that Marvels 3 is a subjective retelling of Marvel history from a personal perspective, and may not have to be taken as a literal record of events. Frankly, the easiest way to deal with the numerous incongrueties of M/M:MOTP is to disavow it altogether, but if it's going to be taken as canon, then it seems to read better this way, even though it pushes the events of FF 49-51 a little further back in the timeline.

In order to place Attuma's flood before FF 49-50, we are left with a situation where Giant-Man, in the middle of a crisis involving the Wasp having gone on a mission alone, because he can't possibly leave his work, suddenly up and responds to a call from the Thing to come and battle monsters with him.

[Russ Chappell]

My view is that Marvels 3 is a subjective retelling of Marvel history from a personal perspective, and may not have to be taken as a literal record of events. Frankly, the easiest way to deal with the numerous incongrueties of M/M:MOTP is to disavow it altogether, but if it's going to be taken as canon, then it seems to read better this way, even though it pushes the events of FF 49-51 a little further back in the timeline.

I have a differing view. It's been previously established that writer Kurt Busiek took great pains to perform chronological analysis before writing the series, and his view, which we try to follow, was that A 26 took place before FF 49.

Now it's true that subsequent stories could potentially require that we revisit previous analyses and reshuffle things, and if truly necessary, reinterpreting that Phil Sheldon may have misremembered the order of events could be the way to go, but we only overrule Marvel's ordering of events if we can show that Marvel's order IS NOT POSSIBLE.

Unfortunately, "it seems to read better" doesn't rise to the level that we need. We may find oddities in Marvel's order, but unless it's categorically wrong, it is what it is.

[StrayLamb]

That's fair enough then. Mole Man still needs the reshuffle in his chronology, as shown above, in order to bring his appearance in line with the Hulk. This in no way alters the overall sheme of events.

Said scheme of events stands thus..

TTA 78/2-79/2 [Hulk returns from the future, encounters Hercules]
TTA 77/1 [Namor confronts Hank Pym on his research platform]
TTA 78/1 (1-7:3:1) [Janet suggest to Hank that he could get to NYC before Namor if he became Giant-Man, but he tells her he can't leave his work]
A 26 (1-4) [Cap explains the use of the Visi-Projector]
TTA 78/1 (7:3:2-8:1) ~ A 26 (5:1-5:6) [Janet transforms into the Wasp, and heads off to warn the Avengers]
A 26 (5:7-20) [Janet is abducted by Attuma, gets a signal to the Avengers, who leave a message for Hawkeye]
A 27 (1-20:3) [Hawkeye borrows an Aero-Sub from Mr Fantastic; Attuma's flood reaches its peak]
FF 48 (14-20) [There is a narrative gap of unspecified duration between pages 13 & 14, after the FF's return from their adventure with the Inhumans, during which time the flames they saw in the sky as they were returning to NYC have since disappeared; the Silver Surfer approaches the Earth, closely followed by Galactus]
FF 49 [FF vs Galactus]
FF 50 (1-13) [End of the threat from Galactus]
FF 50 (14-20) [Newspapers report on Galactus; the Thing starts roaming the streets; Johnny enrols in Metro College, meets Wyatt Wingfoot; they move into a dorm]
FF 51 (1-5:1) [A rainy night: Ben is taken in by the mysterious scientist, who turns himself into an exact duplicate of the Thing, transforming Ben back into his human form]
FF 51 [A few days later, Reed is working on his experimental dimensional portal, and discovers the Negative Zone; as the fake Thing sacrifices himself to save Reed, Ben Grimm transforms back into the Thing]
M/M:MOTP (1-3) [The Collector's monsters escape as the Mole Man attacks] {There must be a narrative gap here of unspecified duration, during which time, some of the Collector's monsters make their way thru the Mole Man's tunnels to NYC, and during which time the Canadian authorities (presumably Dept H/Alpha Flight) apprehend the Collector and the Mole Man}
M/M:MOTP (4-28) [Giant-Man, Thing, Hulk & Beast round up the monsters that have escaped thru to NYC, with all attendant continuity problems]
A 27 (20:4-20:5) [As the Avengers return to the mansion, they find a message coming thru concerning the Wasp]
A 28-29 [Hank Pym advises the Avengers that the Wasp is six hours overdue, and asks for their help in locating her; the Avengers rescue Wasp from the Collector; now Goliath, Hank gets stuck at ten feet tall] {Although it doesn't appear to be the case at a casual reading, there has in fact been a large period of time elapsed since Wasp was abducted; Hank Pym's statement that Janet is six hours overdue can be explained in a number of ways - for instance, Janet may have told Hank Pym (off panel) that once she had alerted the Avengers to the possible threat posed by Namor, she was intending to spend some time in NYC shopping, visiting friends, etc. (i personally don't mind narrative gaps - they allow for any number of other events to be fitted in)}
TTA 80/2-81/2 [Hulk is abducted by Tyrannus, battles Mole Man]


Working out this timeline of events as they currently stand, an anomaly has become evident in Reed Richards' chronology, which has his BTS appearance in A 27 immediately prior to FF 51. As can be seen from the timeline above, FF 51 must occur after Hawkeye borrows the Aero-Sub from Reed in A 27, as this occurs prior to Attuma's final deluge. Hawkeye can only borrow the Aero-Sub from Reed during the narrative gap in FF 48. So Reed's chronology needs to be altered to allow his BTS appearance during Attuma's deluge to occur prior to the arrival of Galactus, as chronicled in Marvels 3.

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47
FF 48 (1 - 17:5)
FF 48 (1-13) *CHANGE
A 27-BTS *MOVE TO HERE
FF 48 (14-17:5) *CHANGE
MARVELS 3 (16)-BTS
FF 48 (18-20) *CHANGE
FF 49
FF 50
SS3 123-FB
A 27-BTS *MOVE FROM HERE
FF 51
M/M:MOTP
FF 52
FF 53

[StrayLamb]

Actually, this section...

M/M:MOTP (1-3) [The Collector's monsters escape as the Mole Man attacks] {There must be a narrative gap here of unspecified duration, during which time, some of the Collector's monsters make their way thru the Mole Man's tunnels to NYC, and during which time the Canadian authorities (presumably Dept H/Alpha Flight) apprehend the Collector and the Mole Man}

...should go prior to prior to A 26 (1-4), so that all of the Collector's business with Wasp takes place after his battle with Mole Man, resulting in the release of his monsters.. Also, this fits with The Collector's chronology, which has his appearance in M/M:MOTP placed prior to A 26.

So we end up with this sequence of events..

TTA 78/2-79/2 [Hulk returns from the future, encounters Hercules]
TTA 77/1 [Namor confronts Hank Pym on his research platform]
TTA 78/1 (1-7:3:1) [Janet suggest to Hank that he could get to NYC before Namor if he became Giant-Man, but he tells her he can't leave his work]
M/M:MOTP (1-3) [The Collector's monsters escape as the Mole Man attacks] {There must be a narrative gap here of unspecified duration, during which time, some of the Collector's monsters make their way thru the Mole Man's tunnels to NYC, and during which time the Canadian authorities (presumably Dept H/Alpha Flight) apprehend the Collector and the Mole Man}
A 26 (1-4) [Cap explains the use of the Visi-Projector]
TTA 78/1 (7:3:2-8:1) ~ A 26 (5:1-5:6) [Janet transforms into the Wasp, and heads off to warn the Avengers]
A 26 (5:7-20) [Janet is abducted by Attuma, gets a signal to the Avengers, who leave a message for Hawkeye]
A 27 (1-20:3) [Hawkeye borrows an Aero-Sub from Mr Fantastic; Attuma's flood reaches its peak]
FF 48 (14-20) [There is a narrative gap of unspecified duration between pages 13 & 14, after the FF's return from their adventure with the Inhumans, during which time the flames they saw in the sky as they were returning to NYC have since disappeared; the Silver Surfer approaches the Earth, closely followed by Galactus]
FF 49 [FF vs Galactus]
FF 50 (1-13) [End of the threat from Galactus]
FF 50 (14-20) [Newspapers report on Galactus; the Thing starts roaming the streets; Johnny enrols in Metro College, meets Wyatt Wingfoot; they move into a dorm]
FF 51 (1-5:1) [A rainy night: Ben is taken in by the mysterious scientist, who turns himself into an exact duplicate of the Thing, transforming Ben back into his human form]
FF 51 [A few days later, Reed is working on his experimental dimensional portal, and discovers the Negative Zone; as the fake Thing sacrifices himself to save Reed, Ben Grimm transforms back into the Thing]
M/M:MOTP (4-28) [Giant-Man, Thing, Hulk & Beast round up the monsters that have escaped thru to NYC, with all attendant continuity problems]
A 27 (20:4-20:5) [As the Avengers return to the mansion, they find a message coming thru concerning the Wasp]
A 28-29 [Hank Pym advises the Avengers that the Wasp is six hours overdue, and asks for their help in locating her; the Avengers rescue Wasp from the Collector; now Goliath, Hank gets stuck at ten feet tall] {Although it doesn't appear to be the case at a casual reading, there has in fact been a large period of time elapsed since Wasp was abducted; Hank Pym's statement that Janet is six hours overdue can be explained in a number of ways - for instance, Janet may have told Hank Pym (off panel) that once she had alerted the Avengers to the possible threat posed by Namor, she was intending to spend some time in NYC shopping, visiting friends, etc. (i personally don't mind narrative gaps - they allow for any number of other events to be fitted in)}
TTA 80/2-81/2 [Hulk is abducted by Tyrannus, battles Mole Man]

The following characters still require the following ammendments to their chronologies..

COLLECTOR/TANELEER TIVAN
A 174 (14:2 - 14:4)-FB
M/M:MOTP (1-3) *CHANGE
A 26-BTS
A 27-BTS
M/M:MOTP (4-28)-BTS *ADD
{A 28}
A 51-FB
A 51

MOLE MAN/HARVEY RUPERT ELDER
FF@ 3
M/M:MOTP *MOVE TO HERE
TTA 80/2
TTA 81/2
M/M:MOTP *MOVE FROM HERE
A 40

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
FF 44
FF 45
FF 46
FF 47
FF 48 (1 - 17:5)
FF 48 (1-13) *CHANGE
A 27-BTS *MOVE TO HERE
FF 48 (14-17:5) *CHANGE
MARVELS 3 (16)-BTS
FF 48 (18-20) *CHANGE
FF 49
FF 50
SS3 123-FB
A 27-BTS *MOVE FROM HERE
FF 51
M/M:MOTP
FF 52
FF 53

PS - having spent the day reading everything thru again, it's possible to place Attuma's Flood (Avengers 26-27) immediately prior to FF 44, although this creates a disparity in issue dates. I've also realized that Invisible Girl's chronology would need to be ammended..

FF 48 (1 - 17:5)
FF 48 (1-13) *CHANGE
A 27-BTS *MOVE TO HERE
FF 48 (14-17:5) *CHANGE
MARVELS 3 (16)-BTS
FF 48 (18-20) *CHANGE
FF 49
FF 50
A 27-BTS *MOVE FROM HERE
FF 51

[michel]

TTA 78/2-79/2 [Hulk returns from the future, encounters Hercules]
TTA 77/1 [Namor confronts Hank Pym on his research platform]
TTA 78/1 (1-7:3:1) [Janet suggest to Hank that he could get to NYC before Namor if he became Giant-Man, but he tells her he can't leave his work]
M/M:MOTP (1-3) [The Collector's monsters escape as the Mole Man attacks] {There must be a narrative gap here of unspecified duration, during which time, some of the Collector's monsters make their way thru the Mole Man's tunnels to NYC, and during which time the Canadian authorities (presumably Dept H/Alpha Flight) apprehend the Collector and the Mole Man}
A 26 (1-4) [Cap explains the use of the Visi-Projector]
TTA 78/1 (7:3:2-8:1) ~ A 26 (5:1-5:6) [Janet transforms into the Wasp, and heads off to warn the Avengers]
A 26 (5:7-20) [Janet is abducted by Attuma, gets a signal to the Avengers, who leave a message for Hawkeye]
A 27 (1-20:3) [Hawkeye borrows an Aero-Sub from Mr Fantastic; Attuma's flood reaches its peak]
FF 48 (14-20) [There is a narrative gap of unspecified duration between pages 13 & 14, after the FF's return from their adventure with the Inhumans, during which time the flames they saw in the sky as they were returning to NYC have since disappeared; the Silver Surfer approaches the Earth, closely followed by Galactus]

...

PS - having spent the day reading everything thru again, it's possible to place Attuma's Flood (Avengers 26-27) immediately prior to FF 44, although this creates a disparity in issue dates.

I'm inclined to agree with your PS, because of Marvels #3. Attuma's flood happens during A 27 and MARVELS 3 (6 - 9:1). You have FF 48 (14 - 20) just after A 27 (1 - 20:3), the stones in the sky happen in MARVELS 3 (13:3) and up. But where do you put the flames in the sky from FF 48 (8:3 - 13) and MARVELS 3 (11:2 - 13:2), and the period shown in MARVELS 3 (9:2 - 11:1)? If you have it before the flood and A 27, then you have MARVELS 3 (9:2 - 13:2) before MARVELS 3 (6 - 9:1).

[StrayLamb]

Michel, i've started a new topic here to better discuss placements for MARVEL 3.