Revisiting Asgardian History in light of Marvel Legacy

[gregorynbaker]

Hello all!

I was trying to wrap my head around cycles of Ragnarok and the like, specifically based on trying to reconcile the Jarnbjorn retcons in Thor: God of Thunder with Thor's many other medieval appearances in which he always has Mjolnir. This lead me into the sinkhole which is Thor v1 293-300, the tale of Odin's eyeball. Most of this story, the retelling of the Nibelungenlied with Thor incarnated as Siegfried, etc., has been affirmed by Valkyrie in other stories. However, the truly controversial piece is the account of the previous Ragnarok, in which a more mythologically correct Thor (red hair) and Odin die. Then things get weird as four of the surviving deities merge to reform as Odin, who then resurrects everyone from figurines which litter the battlefield. Among these are the Warriors Three and an adult Balder. In statements now ten years old, Somebody has strongly defended the position that the Eyeball's tale, at least concerning Ragnarok and the rebirth of the Realms, be considered apocryphal, or as coming from an unreliable narrator.

My big questions are these: How long is a Ragnarok cycle, and how does post-Ragnarok regeneration work? How does a Ragnarok cycle impact Midgard? I read on a Reddit post that there have been at least 33 cycles, though it was unsourced. Thor: Reign of Blood (and its sequel Thor: Man of War) take place in "the era of the twenty-third Ragnarok". At the end, Thor becomes a proto-Donald Blake figure, Arkin Torsen. There is a barrel in a scene of a fire, which means that this scene cannot take place prior to c. 350 BCE (which according to Vinest Journal is when barrels were invented). Odin is also a member of the "Avengers" of one million years ago who witnessed/fought the First Host of Celestials. Thus we know that the first Ragnarok cycle cannot have begun later than 1,004,000 years ago (since in Avengers v7 1, Odin mentions mead which is 4000 years old). By simple math, we can divide the most recent Ragnarok (in Thor v2 85, which by the sliding Marvel timescale was about 3 and a half years ago - so lets say 2014 (based on current writing in 2018)) with the latest possible creation of the gods (1,004,000 years ago). If we assume the 23rd cycle is NOT the present one, then there have been at least 24, and that gives us 41,833.2 years for each cycle. Of course, there could be many, many more. And there is no reason why Ragnarok cycles need to be of equal length (though the similar Yuga system in Hinduism does have generally equal lengths of cycles).

We are left with some questions regarding this scene from Thor: Man of War. According to the Star of Bethlehem correlation in Thor v1 293 (again, unreliable), this ended in c. 6-4 BCE. This works – Arkin Torsen is a member of the Germanic people living in Scandinavia in the early centuries BCE.

But what happens in a Ragnarok? Is Midgard destroyed along with Asgard? There are two possibilities:

1. Each Ragnarok cycle affects all the 9/10 realms. Everything is destroyed and starts again, with the rimefrost, Ymir, Buri, etc. Odin creates Midgard and Yggdrasil, including humankind. This cycle lasts at least 1,004,000 years, per Avengers v7 1. If we want to be really precise, if Midgard = Earth, and Earth is 4.5 billion years old, then each Ragnarok lasts at least that time (although assuming science and myth are both correct, that only leaves time for about 3 Ragnaroks). We could associate Ragnaroks with “extinction level events” in Earth history, which gives us 25 or so Ragnaroks, which fits our number as well, although humans would only exist in the most recent age.

2. Ragnarok only affects Asgard and the non-Midgard realms. Earth is unaffected, but faith in the gods returns each generation through the creation of the latest Aske and Embla (the Norse Adam and Eve). This fits the accounts in Thor v1 293-294 and Thor v2 85, since Earth history was unaffected. However, it denies a story like Journey into Mystery 99, in which the battle between Odin and Surtur creates the moon, and many of the other cosmic creations in the early Odin stories. Thus, we have two subsets of possibility 2:

2a. The cosmic events happen again and again but are localized to the non-Midgard realms.

2b. Ragnarok resets to a “save file.” This is essentially what happens in Thor v1 294. The ancient stories of creation are true – to an extent – they are told as “myths” as the Eye says, but they happened ages ago. There was an ancient Odin who saw the First Host, created humanity, butted heads with his father and brother, etc. However, when there is the reset after Ragnarok (whether or not this involves the 4 gods merging or the figurines on the battlefield), it goes to a specific point in the story – namely just prior to the conception of Thor. In the letter column to Thor v1 294, Mark Gruenwald puts forth the theory that Ragnarok cycles are tied to the cycles of the Earth’s “precession”, which makes them last c. 2160 years (the length of a Zodiac Age, as in “The Age of Aquarius”). Everyone goes back to where they were at the time of the save file – Odin has lived a long life, Bor is “dead”, Buri/Tiwaz is in self-imposed exile, etc. Vili and Ve are alive, but powerless, having given their power to Odin to seal away Surtur. When Surtur escapes in Ragnarok, they are freed and then become the new Odin, per. Thor v1 294.

I think this reset theory solves some of the chronology problems related to Thor v1 294 vs. earlier and later stories. Some details are still errors (whether Thor’s red hair in Thor v1 293 or the barrel in Thor: Man of War, since they are mutually exclusive), but those are mostly cosmetic.

Two other issues that others have brought up:

1. In Thor: Truth of History, Thor and the Warriors Three travel to Egypt and fight Pharaoh Neb-Maat. This takes place “less than 4000 years ago.” However, this would place the Thor, etc., we see in an earlier Ragnarok cycle (unless Neb-Maat is a local tyrant in Giza who otherwise escapes recorded history, along with the griffin headed Sphinx which would contradict ancient Greek historians). If we treat red-headed Thor as an art choice, this is not a problem.

2. The bigger problem seems to be Thor Annual v1 8, at least on a surface read. This is specifically said to take place after Journey into Mystery Annual 1, in which Thor finds a passage leading to Olympus and fights Hercules. When he returns to the area, he and Loki find another fissure, and are affected by amnesiac gas. They emerge in Troy and fight in the Trojan War, with Loki responsible for inspiring Odysseus with the idea of the Trojan Horse. The problem is the Troy is not on a divine plane, but is a very human city, and the war, while legendary, is dated to around the end of the Bronze Age in c. 1250 BCE. This could just as easily be an earlier Thor, but Thor remembers his encounter(s) with Hercules in the present day, before he visits the Eyeball of Odin, and should have no recollection of his previous lives. However, Thor and Loki are time travelling. Zeus recognizes Thor, since he is a skyfather and probably met previous versions of Thor, but says on p. 16, “’Tis a matter ‘twixt us of Olympus, Asgardian. Best thou should return to thine own place and time.” Thor replies, “Time!? Then I was ripped untimely from mine own era, as I did suspect!”. This means that the “frame” era at the beginning can be almost any time during the current Common Era Ragnarok cycle, and there is no contradiction.

In terms of the project, this could affect Odin’s early history, as well as the placement of the Matt Fraction Ages of Thunder one-shots and Thor: Truth of History. I know this is old ground to tread, but recent issues suggest it is worth a least a few moments consideration.

What are your thoughts?

[StrayLamb]

Recent issues of Thor have certainly pushed his age back to about a million years. You've certainly put a lot of thought into the matter. These things be difficult for mere mortals to grasp..

[StrayLamb]

Okay - i'm officially confused regarding the Ragnarok Cycles and Thor's chronology.

I've taken the liberty of copying wolframbane's Ragnarok list from http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... php?t=5005

The Era of the First Ragnarok (c. 16,000-15,416 BC)
The Era of the Second Ragnarok (c. 15,416-14,833 BC)
The Era of the Third Ragnarok (c. 14,833-14,250 BC), seen in Thor: Ages Of Thunder
The Era of the Fourth Ragnarok (c. 14,250-13,666 BC)
The Era of the Fifth Ragnarok (c. 13,666-13,083 BC)
The Era of the Sixth Ragnarok (c. 13,083-12,500 BC)
The Era of the Seventh Ragnarok (c. 12,500-11,916 BC)
The Era of the Eighth Ragnarok (c. 11,916-11,333 BC)
The Era of the Ninth Ragnarok (c. 11,333-10,750 BC)
The Era of the Tenth Ragnarok (c. 10,750-10,166 BC)
The Era of the Eleventh Ragnarok (c. 10,166-9583 BC), seen in Thor: Man of War
The Era of the Twelfth Ragnarok (c. 9563-9000 BC)
The Era of the Thirteenth Ragnarok (c. 9000-8416 BC)
The Era of the Fourteenth Ragnarok (c. 8416-7833 BC)
The Era of the Fifteen Ragnarok (c. 7833-7250 BC)
The Era of the Sixteen Ragnarok (c. 7250-6666 BC)
The Era of the Seventeenth Ragnarok (c. 6666-6083 BC)
The Era of the Eighteenth Ragnarok (c. 6083-5500 BC)
The Era of the Nineteenth Ragnarok (c. 5500-4916 BC)
The Era of the Twentieth Ragnarok (c. 4916-4333 BC)
The Era of the Twenty-First Ragnarok (c. 4333-3750 BC)
The Era of the Twenty-Second Ragnarok (c. 3750-3166 BC)
The Era of the Twenty-Third Ragnarok (c. 3166-2583 BC), seen in Thor: Reign of Blood
The Era of the Twenty-Fourth Ragnarok (c. 2583-2000 BC), seen in Thor #293-294
The Era of the Twenty-Fifth Ragnarok (c. 2000 BC-Modern Era), first seen in Journey in Mystery #83

Wolframbane explains how the cycles work:
a) There have been at least 25 Ragnarok cycles. Thor: Reign of Blood occurred during the Era of the 23rd Ragnarok (with Thor: Ages Of Thunder during the 3rd Ragnarok, and Thor: Man of War during the 11th Ragnarok). After the 23rd Ragnarok, there were at least two more Ragnarok cycles, the current one, and the one immediately preceding it (with a red-headed Thor), as depicted in Thor #293-294.
b) The current or final Ragnarok cycle ended with the Modern Age. It began circa 2000 BC, as per Official Index to the Marvel Universe v2 #1 and OHOTMU A-Z: Premiere HC #14. Thor and the Warriors Three were even shown as being active "less than four thousand years ago" in Thor: Truth of History. Thus the current Ragnarok cycle lasted approximately 4000 years.
c) The prior Ragnarok cycle depicted in Thor #293-294 was mentioned to have ended about 2000 years ago, and the light of the destruction of that Asgard was actually the Star of Bethlehem, which ushered in the birth of Jesus Christ, circa 4 BC. Given more recent revelations, this date is probably incorrect, but perhaps when the last Asgard was destroyed c. 2000 BC, it took almost 2 millennia for the light to arrive on Earth. The Star of Bethlehem has also been described in the MU as being a falling Yazdi Gem from Tomb of Dracula Magazine #1, and as being followed by an alien Wise Man in Marvel Holiday Special 1996.
d) As per OHOTMU A-Z: Premiere HC #14, the earliest recorded activity of the Asgardians was c. 16,000 BC (the beginning of the Hyborian Age), so approximately 14,000 years passed between the beginning of Asgardian history to the end of the second-to-last Raganarok cycle in c. 2000 BC.
e) With a minimum of 24 Ragnarok cycles prior to the current Ragnarok cycle, over a period of 14,000 years, allows for an average length of 583.3 years per Ragnarok cycle, discounting the current cycle's length of 4000 years. In all, we are given sufficient information to compile an approximate and very tentative chronology for the Eras of the Ragnarok, using an average of 583.3 years per common cycle, although any of these these dates could easily be off by several decades, centuries or even millennia. At best, it can serve as an approximate guide for anyone wanting to estimate certain events during this period. Using an average date length to determine a chronology is an entirely legitimate exercise in perfect accord with accepted historical method, and is often used for the construction of King Lists.

In another post, http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 775#p56129, wolframbane explains "The Asgardian realms undergo a "Ragnarok cycle" of destruction and rebirth every 2160 years or so, the last one occurred around the birth of Christ. Each cycle has the same Asgardians, but they are essentially reincarnated each cycle and live similar lives, with no memory of their prior existence. The events surrounding Angela occurred only during the most recent cycle, so only within the past 2000 years or so. Earlier incarnations of the event may or may not have happened, but the current version was only within the last two millennia."

So is the current Ragnarok Cycle roughly 4000 years old, beginning around 2000BC, or did it begin around 2000 years ago?

And which stories of Thor's youth are contained within the current cycle? We need to determine this in order to correctly determine Thor's early chronology. For instance, as Col_Fury explains it in http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 775#p56140, "Truth of History was covered in the Thor Index, and in the synopsis it says the adventure starts "centuries ago" and then Thor and his pals go through a portal and "arrive in ancient Egypt," suggesting time travel. So there's that at least.

Also, to be clear, I think Odin remembering previous Ragnarok Cycles has to be a logical deduction we make. I'm not sure Jason Aaron (current Thor & Avengers writer) necessarily intends for the Odin of 1,000,000 BC to be a previous iteration. But since the Ragnarok Cycle thing has been established since forever and we know the current cycle didn't start a million years ago, we'll just have to assume Odin can remember his previous cycles/iterations/whatever."

In Thor's chronology T:TOH is listed after all of the Tales of Asgard episodes in Journey Into Mystery, placing Thor's entire backstory into a previous Ragnarok Cycle. Now, it seems to me that these stories were intended to serve as a backstory for the current incarnation of Thor (current cycle). If the current Ragnarok Cycle began roughly 2000 years ago, and these backstories are a part of the history of the current iteration of Thor, and if T:TOH is a time-travel story, then the time spent in Ancient Egypt should precede the current Thor's early backstories.

Thor's chronology lists T:G 1-FB-FB prior to JIM 110/2, yet this should not occur much earlier than around 800AD, when the Vikings first established organized settlements. In this story, Thor has only recently acquired Mjolnir, which according to Marvel Saga 4 (21:1), was presented to him by Odin when he 18yo. Some time, probably a number of centuries, would probably have to occur during the beginning of each new Ragnarok Cycle before Thor's birth in each of the cycles. Therefore, Thor: Godstorm would place the current Ragnarok Cycle at roughly 1500 years ago, and the current Thor's age at around something over 1200 years. The Ragnarok Cycles have been shown to have a varying length of between roughly 583 years to around 4000 years.

We need to work this out in order for placements in Thor's early history to be correctly aligned.

[Col_Fury]

Well, given that we now know that Odin was around in 1,000,000 BC, there have either been more than 25 Ragnarok Cycles, or the average length is longer than 2,000 years, yes?

So is the current Ragnarok Cycle roughly 4000 years old, beginning around 2000BC, or did it begin around 2000 years ago?

The current Cycle started around 2,000 years ago; that's been established in a number of places, including in the comics, the handbooks and the index. T:TOH is a time travel story (Thor and his pals traveled to roughly 2,000 years before their "birth"), at least according to the implied phrasing of the Index.

Some time, probably a number of centuries, would probably have to occur during the beginning of each new Ragnarok Cycle before Thor's birth in each of the cycles.

mmMaybe?

Do we know that a new Cycle starts at ground zero? Or is there a "system restore point" that a new Cycle goes back to? Does Bor (Odin's dad) live a full life before Odin comes around each time? Or does a new Cycle start at the end of Bor's run and Odin takes over shortly after? Does a new Cycle start at the same point each time? etc.?

Did Odin go through a number of Cycles before he realized what was going on? Is that why he set up a "restore point" (in theory)? Also, does Odin wait the same amount of time each Cycle before siring Thor? Does he sometimes wait a few hundred years, and sometimes he just gets right into it? Is this even a good theory?

As for Thor first getting his hands on Mjolnir (in the current Cycle), that's been covered in at least a few stories, AND it's been expanded on in at least Jason Aaron's T:GOT 1-25 (the whole Thor-had-Jarnbjorn-before-Mjolnir era) and we may still learn a few things before Aaron wraps up his run on Thor.

Basically, in general, there are a lot of things that haven't been revealed about how all of this works. Any theory fans come up with will have to have wiggle room to account for new information (such as Odin being around in 1,000,000 BC as opposed to 16,000 BC).

[Col_Fury]

Put another way, What If...? a Ragnarok Cycle spans an average of 2,000 years? (because that's how old the current cycle roughly was before it's Ragnarok was averted in T2 80-85) If so, then we'd currently be in the 501st Ragnarok Cycle (give or take).

First Ragnarok - 1,000,000 - 998,000 BC (seen in Avengers v7)
Third Ragnarok - 996,000 - 994,000 BC (seen in Ages of Thunder)
Eleventh Ragnarok - 980,000 - 978,000 BC (seen in Man of War)
Twenty Third Ragnarok - 956,000 - 954, 000 BC (seen in Reign of Blood)
humans begin to evolve from neanderthals - 300,000 BC
"earliest recorded activity" - 16,000 BC
Five Hundredth Ragnarok - 2,000 BC - 0 AD (seen in Thor #293-294)
Current Ragnarok - 0 AD - now (seen in JiM 83)

Of course, how much of those early cycles happen on Earth vs. whatever Asgardian realm is a question, because humans hadn't evolved yet by 1,000,000 BC (depite what the movie ONE MILLION YEARS BC may tells us). OR, maybe the first few Ragnarok Cycles lasted 100,000 years each? OR OR, What If...? there was no such thing as Ragnarok Cycles until evolved humans started telling stories about the Asgardians and inflicted Ragnarok Cycles on them? Recent-ish JiM stories say Asgardians are affected by stories... What If...? the first "Cycle" lasted 700,000 years (or so), and then they started resetting every 2,000 years (or whatever) because of humans telling stories about them? Who knows?

As for the "it'd take 2,000 years for the light to reach the Earth" thing, maybe it was the 499th (or whatever) Ragnarok's end that took 2,000 years for the light to reach Earth?

But again, we're making assumptions based on what we currently know. Something can be revealed in the future that blows all of this up.

[StrayLamb]

I think my brain just exploded.!

So if i'm reading Thor's chronology correctly, the current Ragnarok Cycle begins at about JIM@ 1, as T 293-294-FBs, and presumably T 295-300-FBs are part of a previous Cycle. Would that be correct?

[Col_Fury]

Current Cycle Thor's earliest appearance is T@ 11 (2 - 5:1)-FB, where Odin conceives Thor and Thor is born.

Current Cycle Odin's earliest appearance is T 294 (4 - 11)-FB, where the survivors of the previous Ragnarok Cycle are "transformed into the new Odin." Odin then sets about 'restoring' the Asgardians and their history.

The more I think about it the more I like this theory that human stories inflicted Ragnarok upon the Asgardians. It fits with some of what we already know (Asgardians are affected by stories). Adding in T 294 (4 - 11)-FB, that would also fit with human stories of Odin being the all-knowing All-Father; of course he remembers previous Ragnaroks; he's all-knowing after all. And because he's all-knowing, he built in a restore point (at some point) to make sure Ragnarok resets with him in charge (as seen in T 294 (4 - 11)-FB).

Again, this is just a theory based on what we currently know. BUT, if that's the case (and assuming a 2,000 year long cycle):

First Ragnarok Cycle - 1,000,000 BC - 200,000 BC (seen in Avengers v7)
Second Ragnarok Cycle - 200,000 BC - 198,000 BC (because humans told stories of Ragnarok)
Third Ragnarok Cycle - 198,000 BC - 196,000 BC (seen in Ages of Thunder)
---
Eleventh Ragnarok Cycle - 182,000 BC - 180,000 BC (seen in Ages of Thunder)
---
Twenty Third Ragnarok Cycle - 158,000 - 156,000 BC (seen in Reign of Blood)
---
"earliest recorded activity" - 16,000 BC (Kull's era, right?)
---
One Hundredth Ragnarok Cycle - 2,000 BC - 0 AD (seen in Thor #293-294-FBs)
Current Ragnarok Cycle - 0 AD - now (first seen in JiM #83)

Thoughts?

[StrayLamb]

Yikes.! I hope i haven't just set off another Ragnarok with my questions.

I think i'm beginning to wrap my head around this now. Thanks Colonel.

[Somebody]

Again, this is just a theory based on what we currently know. BUT, if that's the case (and assuming a 2,000 year long cycle):

First Ragnarok Cycle - 1,000,000 BC - 200,000 BC (seen in Avengers v7)
Second Ragnarok Cycle - 200,000 BC - 198,000 BC (because humans told stories of Ragnarok)
Third Ragnarok Cycle - 198,000 BC - 196,000 BC (seen in Ages of Thunder)
---
Eleventh Ragnarok Cycle - 182,000 BC - 180,000 BC (seen in Man of War)
---
Twenty Third Ragnarok Cycle - 158,000 - 156,000 BC (seen in Reign of Blood)
---
"earliest recorded activity" - 16,000 BC (Kull's era, right?)
---
One Hundredth Ragnarok Cycle - 2,000 BC - 0 AD (seen in Thor #293-294-FBs)
Current Ragnarok Cycle - 0 AD - now (first seen in JiM #83)

Thoughts?

Two:
1) Only Ages of Thunder (story 1 is Third Ragnarok & story 2 is Eleventh Ragnarok) and Reign of Blood (Twenty-Third Ragnarok) actually give cycles. Man of War (which is the third, not the second, one-shot) appears to be a direct continuation of Reign of Blood (i.e., in the Twenty-Third Ragnarok) - it even has a recap page, which RoB does not.
2) Regardless of the above, Reign of Blood involves humans, and Man of War ends with Thor cast down as a Donald Blake-esque human (Arkin Torsen) in Viking times amongst humans. Those can't possibly be before "earliest recorded [human] activity".

[Col_Fury]

The Handbooks don't say "earliest recorded [human] activity," they say "earliest recorded [Asgardian] activity." The word on the street is that evolved humans started gaining traction around-ish 300,000 BC. And given Avengers v7, we know Asgardians have been around since 1,000,000 BC (or at least Odin has).

As for "Viking Times," given that a major premise of the Hyborean Age is that it's a forgotten era, it wouldn't surprise me if there were several forgotten eras. Maybe one of those eras could be around 180,000 BC? Or 156,000 BC? At least in the Marvel Universe, we know there were Viking-like tribes circa at least 8,000 BC. Who's to say there weren't several "Viking Times"?

Thanks for the Cycle clarifications!

[Somebody]

Another point is that you're unnecessarily assuming that each cycle is linear. I think too much credence is being given to the Eye story for timing, but if we assume that (a) the timing given is accurate, (b) the "23rd Ragnarok" Reign of Blood/Man of War Thor is at least one cycle before the current (and extended) one, and (c) Those Who Sit Above In Shadow got hungrier quicker each time, leading to an exponential decay of cycle lengths, we end up with something approximating...

• Cycle 1 ("Era of the Zeroth Ragnarok") begins pre-1000000 BCE
• Era of the 1st Ragnarok ends c. 811700 BCE
• Era of the 2nd Ragnarok ends c. 665700 BCE
• Era of the 3rd Ragnarok ends c. 545700 BCE (Ages of Thunder story 1. Note that, although no actual humans appear, a Frost Giant pretending to be a human mason with a domesticated horse does...)
• Era of the 4th Ragnarok ends c. 447700 BCE
• Era of the 5th Ragnarok ends c. 365700 BCE
• Era of the 6th Ragnarok ends c. 299700 BCE
• Era of the 7th Ragnarok ends c. 244700 BCE
• Era of the 8th Ragnarok ends c. 198700 BCE
• Era of the 9th Ragnarok ends c. 161700 BCE
• Era of the 10th Ragnarok ends c. 130700 BCE
• Era of the 11th Ragnarok ends c. 105700 BCE (Ages of Thunder story 2)
• Era of the 12th Ragnarok ends c. 85200 BCE
• Era of the 13th Ragnarok ends c. 68100 BCE
• Era of the 14th Ragnarok ends c. 54000 BCE
• Era of the 15th Ragnarok ends c. 42500 BCE
• Era of the 16th Ragnarok ends c. 32900 BCE
• Era of the 17th Ragnarok ends c. 25100 BCE
• Era of the 18th Ragnarok ends c. 18700 BCE
• Era of the 19th Ragnarok ends c. 13300 BCE
• Era of the 20th Ragnarok ends c. 9000 BCE
• Era of the 21st Ragnarok ends c. 5400 BCE
• Era of the 22nd Ragnarok ends c. 2400 BCE
• Era of the 23rd Ragnarok ends c. 1 BCE (Reign of Blood/Man of War)
• Era of the 24th Ragnarok end aborted c. 2000 CE (current)

[Col_Fury]

I had forgotten about Those Who Sit Above In Shadow. Hmn.

Also, I see what you did there in the file name.

[Somebody]

BTW, I did that graph as if the first cycle worked on the same (exponential) scale as the others. If you assume that the first Ragnarok was something that was entirely independent of the Asgardians' creation, for instance, that frees the start of it up. It does flatten things out somewhat though, if you still assume the "current" cycle has lasted around 2000 years [per the Eye] and we're in (at least) the Era of the Twenty-Fourth Ragnarok [per Reign of Blood].

If you presume the initial one (giving Rise to the Era of the First Ragnarok) was ~180000 BCE, for instance, then that pulls the Era of the Third Ragnarok with the horse and the supposed-human down to 142k-126k BCE. (Though it doesn't help with his chains)

I had forgotten about Those Who Sit Above In Shadow. Hmn.

I still think the Eye's story is pretty hard to stomach, given what we know about Ragnarok cycles as it stands.

Also, I see what you did there in the file name.

Well, it was a pretty dry post. Needed something in there

[wolframbane]

For my extensive Marvel Timeline, I have revised my version of the Ragnarok cycles.

RAGNAROK CYCLES

1) Each Ragnarok cycle is "2160 years" (Thor #294, 1980) long, based upon an astrological age, a time period in astrologic theology, such as the Age of Aquarius
2) There are at least 25 Ragnarok cycles by the modern era, with "The Era of the Twenty-Third Ragnarok" (Thor: Reign of Blood #1, 2008) as the highest numbered cycle, and at least two more cycles, the penultimate one with a red haired Thor (Thor #293-294, 1980) and the current and final one ended by Thor.
3) The penultimate cycle ended and final cycle began simultaneously with the birth of Jesus Christ. There are numerous dates cited for his birth, often 7-4 BCE; we have decided to use 5 BCE as determined by The Annals of the World by James Ussher.
4) If the 24th cycle ended and the 25th cycle started in 5 BCE, that means the 1st cycle began in 51,845 BCE and the 25th cycle was supposed to have ended in 2156 CE, despite reference to "around 2160 A.D." (Thor #294, 1980).
5) Asgardians have been around for at least one million years, but there is not indication that they have been entrapped in the Ragnarok cycles for that entire time.

Prior to 1 Million BCE. The Asgardian gods dwell on Aesheim (Earth). All-Father Bor dies and his son Cul becomes king, spreading fear across the Nine Realms. His brothers Odin, Vili and Ve imprison Cul in the Marianas Trench. Odin becomes the new All-Father. "Before the dawn of [Asgard's] history" (Thor #7, 2011).

c. 1 Million BCE. Odin uses Mjolnir, he and six other adventurers battle Celestials. (Marvel Legacy #1, 2017).

51,845-49,685 BCE. Era of the First Ragnarok. Those Who Sit Above in Shadow entrap Asgard in the Ragnarok cycles.

49,685-47,525 BCE. Era of the Second Ragnarok.

47,525-45,365 BCE. Era of the Third Ragnarok. A Midgard stonemason offers to repair a damaged city wall of Asgard with Idun the Enchantress as payment. Odin has Loki transform into a mare to distract the mason's horse. The mason reveals himself as a frost giant but is slain by Thor. "The Era of the Third Ragnarok" (Thor: Ages of Thunder #1, 2008).

45,365-43,205 BCE. Era of the Fourth Ragnarok.

43,205-41,045 BCE. Era of the Fifth Ragnarok.

41,045-38,885 BCE. Era of the Sixth Ragnarok.

38,885-36,725 BCE. Era of the Seventh Ragnarok.

36,725-34,565 BCE. Era of the Eighth Ragnarok.

34,565-32,405 BCE. Era of the Ninth Ragnarok.

32,405-30,245 BCE. Era of the Tenth Ragnarok.

30,245-28,085 BCE. Era of the Eleventh Ragnarok. Loki surrenders Idun the Enchantress to a frost giant. Without her to harvest the golden apples, the Asgardians lose much of their power. Loki fails to recover Idun and they are both rescued by Thor. "The Era of the Eleventh Ragnarok" (Thor: Ages of Thunder #1, 2008).

28,085-25,925 BCE. Era of the Twelfth Ragnarok.

25,925-23,765 BCE. Era of the Thirteenth Ragnarok.

23,765-21,605 BCE. Era of the Fourteenth Ragnarok.

21,605-19,445 BCE. Era of the Fifteenth Ragnarok.

19,445-17,285 BCE. Era of the Sixteenth Ragnarok. At least some of the Asgardian gods are worshiped by the people of Zarfhaana, Thuria, as the Zarfhaanan woman Gormella proclaimed "By Odin's eyes!" (Kull the Conqueror #10, 1973) during the reign of Kull circa 18,500 BCE.

17,285-15,125 BCE. Era of the Seventeenth Ragnarok. Amongst the earliest recorded activity of the Asgardians was circa 16,000 BCE. "16,000 BC" (The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #14, 2010).

15,125-12,965 BCE. Era of the Eighteenth Ragnarok.

12,965-10,805 BCE. Era of the Nineteenth Ragnarok. It is possible that Borri the Grim Grey God (Conan the Barbarian #3, 1971) and the frost giants Hanar and Ilse (Conan #5, 1995) may be remnants of this era.

10,805-8645 BCE. Era of the Twentieth Ragnarok. During the late Hyborian Age circa 10,000 BC, the Asgardian gods were often invoked or encountered by the Nordheimr and Cimmerian humans. Among the Asgardian entities mentioned were Atali, Borri, Heimdall, Thor, Woden and Ymir.

8645-6485 BCE. Era of the Twenty-First Ragnarok.

6485-4325 BCE. Era of the Twenty-Second Ragnarok.

4325-2165 BCE. Era of the Twenty-Third Ragnarok. Odin uses a dwarven forged sword to slay a frost giantess. Idun the Enchantress summons an army of the dead to ravage Midgard, but Thor destroys them. Thor rampages across the Nine Worlds, but Odin removes his powers and memory, transforming him into mortal healer Arkin Torsen. Thor: Reign of Blood #1, 2008; Thor: Man of War #1, 2009. "The Era of the Twenty-Third Ragnarok" (Thor: Reign of Blood #1, 2008).

2165-5 BCE. Era of the Twenty-Fourth Ragnarok. The final battle of Ragnarok involves a red haired Thor and the Aesir battling Loki and his forces, resulting in the destruction of Asgard at approximately the same time Jesus Christ was born (Thor #293-294, 1980). The storm giants Sturm and Drang (Captain Marvel #7-8, 2013) may be remnants of this era, as they encountered the young Odin of the 24th era before the city of Asgard was built and thus before Loki and his own child Fenris were born; Sturm and Drang were the sons of Fenris, and thus probably the Fenris of the prior era.

5 BCE-2156 CE. Era of the Twenty-Fifth Ragnarok. The current and final Ragnarok cycle of Reality-616, which was aborted early by Thor in the early 21st century (Thor #85, 2004). Any appearances of Thor of this era "that occur in BC must involve time travel" (Thor: Official Index to the Marvel Universe, 2011), such as in Thor: Truth of History, 2008. Reference to this era as starting "approximately 2000 BC" (The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #14, 2010) was erroneous.

2156-4316 CE. Era of the Twenty-Sixth Ragnarok. In various alternate futures, it is possible that Thor did not halt the Ragnarok cycles, resulting in an Era of the Twenty-Sixth Ragnarok. Perhaps Dargo Ktor of 26th century Earth-8710 or Woden of 31st century Earth-691 are from this era.

[thor321]

For my extensive Marvel Timeline, I have revised my version of the Ragnarok cycles.

RAGNAROK CYCLES

1) Each Ragnarok cycle is "2160 years" (Thor #294, 1980) long, based upon an astrological age, a time period in astrologic theology, such as the Age of Aquarius

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2156-4316 CE. Era of the Twenty-Sixth Ragnarok. In various alternate futures, it is possible that Thor did not halt the Ragnarok cycles, resulting in an Era of the Twenty-Sixth Ragnarok. Perhaps Dargo Ktor of 26th century Earth-8710 or Woden of 31st century Earth-691 are from this era.

how old would current Thor be???