Revisiting Asgardian History in light of Marvel Legacy
Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:55 am
Hello all!
I was trying to wrap my head around cycles of Ragnarok and the like, specifically based on trying to reconcile the Jarnbjorn retcons in Thor: God of Thunder with Thor's many other medieval appearances in which he always has Mjolnir. This lead me into the sinkhole which is Thor v1 293-300, the tale of Odin's eyeball. Most of this story, the retelling of the Nibelungenlied with Thor incarnated as Siegfried, etc., has been affirmed by Valkyrie in other stories. However, the truly controversial piece is the account of the previous Ragnarok, in which a more mythologically correct Thor (red hair) and Odin die. Then things get weird as four of the surviving deities merge to reform as Odin, who then resurrects everyone from figurines which litter the battlefield. Among these are the Warriors Three and an adult Balder. In statements now ten years old, Somebody has strongly defended the position that the Eyeball's tale, at least concerning Ragnarok and the rebirth of the Realms, be considered apocryphal, or as coming from an unreliable narrator.
My big questions are these: How long is a Ragnarok cycle, and how does post-Ragnarok regeneration work? How does a Ragnarok cycle impact Midgard? I read on a Reddit post that there have been at least 33 cycles, though it was unsourced. Thor: Reign of Blood (and its sequel Thor: Man of War) take place in "the era of the twenty-third Ragnarok". At the end, Thor becomes a proto-Donald Blake figure, Arkin Torsen. There is a barrel in a scene of a fire, which means that this scene cannot take place prior to c. 350 BCE (which according to Vinest Journal is when barrels were invented). Odin is also a member of the "Avengers" of one million years ago who witnessed/fought the First Host of Celestials. Thus we know that the first Ragnarok cycle cannot have begun later than 1,004,000 years ago (since in Avengers v7 1, Odin mentions mead which is 4000 years old). By simple math, we can divide the most recent Ragnarok (in Thor v2 85, which by the sliding Marvel timescale was about 3 and a half years ago - so lets say 2014 (based on current writing in 2018)) with the latest possible creation of the gods (1,004,000 years ago). If we assume the 23rd cycle is NOT the present one, then there have been at least 24, and that gives us 41,833.2 years for each cycle. Of course, there could be many, many more. And there is no reason why Ragnarok cycles need to be of equal length (though the similar Yuga system in Hinduism does have generally equal lengths of cycles).
We are left with some questions regarding this scene from Thor: Man of War. According to the Star of Bethlehem correlation in Thor v1 293 (again, unreliable), this ended in c. 6-4 BCE. This works – Arkin Torsen is a member of the Germanic people living in Scandinavia in the early centuries BCE.
But what happens in a Ragnarok? Is Midgard destroyed along with Asgard? There are two possibilities:
1. Each Ragnarok cycle affects all the 9/10 realms. Everything is destroyed and starts again, with the rimefrost, Ymir, Buri, etc. Odin creates Midgard and Yggdrasil, including humankind. This cycle lasts at least 1,004,000 years, per Avengers v7 1. If we want to be really precise, if Midgard = Earth, and Earth is 4.5 billion years old, then each Ragnarok lasts at least that time (although assuming science and myth are both correct, that only leaves time for about 3 Ragnaroks). We could associate Ragnaroks with “extinction level events” in Earth history, which gives us 25 or so Ragnaroks, which fits our number as well, although humans would only exist in the most recent age.
2. Ragnarok only affects Asgard and the non-Midgard realms. Earth is unaffected, but faith in the gods returns each generation through the creation of the latest Aske and Embla (the Norse Adam and Eve). This fits the accounts in Thor v1 293-294 and Thor v2 85, since Earth history was unaffected. However, it denies a story like Journey into Mystery 99, in which the battle between Odin and Surtur creates the moon, and many of the other cosmic creations in the early Odin stories. Thus, we have two subsets of possibility 2:
2a. The cosmic events happen again and again but are localized to the non-Midgard realms.
2b. Ragnarok resets to a “save file.” This is essentially what happens in Thor v1 294. The ancient stories of creation are true – to an extent – they are told as “myths” as the Eye says, but they happened ages ago. There was an ancient Odin who saw the First Host, created humanity, butted heads with his father and brother, etc. However, when there is the reset after Ragnarok (whether or not this involves the 4 gods merging or the figurines on the battlefield), it goes to a specific point in the story – namely just prior to the conception of Thor. In the letter column to Thor v1 294, Mark Gruenwald puts forth the theory that Ragnarok cycles are tied to the cycles of the Earth’s “precession”, which makes them last c. 2160 years (the length of a Zodiac Age, as in “The Age of Aquarius”). Everyone goes back to where they were at the time of the save file – Odin has lived a long life, Bor is “dead”, Buri/Tiwaz is in self-imposed exile, etc. Vili and Ve are alive, but powerless, having given their power to Odin to seal away Surtur. When Surtur escapes in Ragnarok, they are freed and then become the new Odin, per. Thor v1 294.
I think this reset theory solves some of the chronology problems related to Thor v1 294 vs. earlier and later stories. Some details are still errors (whether Thor’s red hair in Thor v1 293 or the barrel in Thor: Man of War, since they are mutually exclusive), but those are mostly cosmetic.
Two other issues that others have brought up:
1. In Thor: Truth of History, Thor and the Warriors Three travel to Egypt and fight Pharaoh Neb-Maat. This takes place “less than 4000 years ago.” However, this would place the Thor, etc., we see in an earlier Ragnarok cycle (unless Neb-Maat is a local tyrant in Giza who otherwise escapes recorded history, along with the griffin headed Sphinx which would contradict ancient Greek historians). If we treat red-headed Thor as an art choice, this is not a problem.
2. The bigger problem seems to be Thor Annual v1 8, at least on a surface read. This is specifically said to take place after Journey into Mystery Annual 1, in which Thor finds a passage leading to Olympus and fights Hercules. When he returns to the area, he and Loki find another fissure, and are affected by amnesiac gas. They emerge in Troy and fight in the Trojan War, with Loki responsible for inspiring Odysseus with the idea of the Trojan Horse. The problem is the Troy is not on a divine plane, but is a very human city, and the war, while legendary, is dated to around the end of the Bronze Age in c. 1250 BCE. This could just as easily be an earlier Thor, but Thor remembers his encounter(s) with Hercules in the present day, before he visits the Eyeball of Odin, and should have no recollection of his previous lives. However, Thor and Loki are time travelling. Zeus recognizes Thor, since he is a skyfather and probably met previous versions of Thor, but says on p. 16, “’Tis a matter ‘twixt us of Olympus, Asgardian. Best thou should return to thine own place and time.” Thor replies, “Time!? Then I was ripped untimely from mine own era, as I did suspect!”. This means that the “frame” era at the beginning can be almost any time during the current Common Era Ragnarok cycle, and there is no contradiction.
In terms of the project, this could affect Odin’s early history, as well as the placement of the Matt Fraction Ages of Thunder one-shots and Thor: Truth of History. I know this is old ground to tread, but recent issues suggest it is worth a least a few moments consideration.
What are your thoughts?
I was trying to wrap my head around cycles of Ragnarok and the like, specifically based on trying to reconcile the Jarnbjorn retcons in Thor: God of Thunder with Thor's many other medieval appearances in which he always has Mjolnir. This lead me into the sinkhole which is Thor v1 293-300, the tale of Odin's eyeball. Most of this story, the retelling of the Nibelungenlied with Thor incarnated as Siegfried, etc., has been affirmed by Valkyrie in other stories. However, the truly controversial piece is the account of the previous Ragnarok, in which a more mythologically correct Thor (red hair) and Odin die. Then things get weird as four of the surviving deities merge to reform as Odin, who then resurrects everyone from figurines which litter the battlefield. Among these are the Warriors Three and an adult Balder. In statements now ten years old, Somebody has strongly defended the position that the Eyeball's tale, at least concerning Ragnarok and the rebirth of the Realms, be considered apocryphal, or as coming from an unreliable narrator.
My big questions are these: How long is a Ragnarok cycle, and how does post-Ragnarok regeneration work? How does a Ragnarok cycle impact Midgard? I read on a Reddit post that there have been at least 33 cycles, though it was unsourced. Thor: Reign of Blood (and its sequel Thor: Man of War) take place in "the era of the twenty-third Ragnarok". At the end, Thor becomes a proto-Donald Blake figure, Arkin Torsen. There is a barrel in a scene of a fire, which means that this scene cannot take place prior to c. 350 BCE (which according to Vinest Journal is when barrels were invented). Odin is also a member of the "Avengers" of one million years ago who witnessed/fought the First Host of Celestials. Thus we know that the first Ragnarok cycle cannot have begun later than 1,004,000 years ago (since in Avengers v7 1, Odin mentions mead which is 4000 years old). By simple math, we can divide the most recent Ragnarok (in Thor v2 85, which by the sliding Marvel timescale was about 3 and a half years ago - so lets say 2014 (based on current writing in 2018)) with the latest possible creation of the gods (1,004,000 years ago). If we assume the 23rd cycle is NOT the present one, then there have been at least 24, and that gives us 41,833.2 years for each cycle. Of course, there could be many, many more. And there is no reason why Ragnarok cycles need to be of equal length (though the similar Yuga system in Hinduism does have generally equal lengths of cycles).
We are left with some questions regarding this scene from Thor: Man of War. According to the Star of Bethlehem correlation in Thor v1 293 (again, unreliable), this ended in c. 6-4 BCE. This works – Arkin Torsen is a member of the Germanic people living in Scandinavia in the early centuries BCE.
But what happens in a Ragnarok? Is Midgard destroyed along with Asgard? There are two possibilities:
1. Each Ragnarok cycle affects all the 9/10 realms. Everything is destroyed and starts again, with the rimefrost, Ymir, Buri, etc. Odin creates Midgard and Yggdrasil, including humankind. This cycle lasts at least 1,004,000 years, per Avengers v7 1. If we want to be really precise, if Midgard = Earth, and Earth is 4.5 billion years old, then each Ragnarok lasts at least that time (although assuming science and myth are both correct, that only leaves time for about 3 Ragnaroks). We could associate Ragnaroks with “extinction level events” in Earth history, which gives us 25 or so Ragnaroks, which fits our number as well, although humans would only exist in the most recent age.
2. Ragnarok only affects Asgard and the non-Midgard realms. Earth is unaffected, but faith in the gods returns each generation through the creation of the latest Aske and Embla (the Norse Adam and Eve). This fits the accounts in Thor v1 293-294 and Thor v2 85, since Earth history was unaffected. However, it denies a story like Journey into Mystery 99, in which the battle between Odin and Surtur creates the moon, and many of the other cosmic creations in the early Odin stories. Thus, we have two subsets of possibility 2:
2a. The cosmic events happen again and again but are localized to the non-Midgard realms.
2b. Ragnarok resets to a “save file.” This is essentially what happens in Thor v1 294. The ancient stories of creation are true – to an extent – they are told as “myths” as the Eye says, but they happened ages ago. There was an ancient Odin who saw the First Host, created humanity, butted heads with his father and brother, etc. However, when there is the reset after Ragnarok (whether or not this involves the 4 gods merging or the figurines on the battlefield), it goes to a specific point in the story – namely just prior to the conception of Thor. In the letter column to Thor v1 294, Mark Gruenwald puts forth the theory that Ragnarok cycles are tied to the cycles of the Earth’s “precession”, which makes them last c. 2160 years (the length of a Zodiac Age, as in “The Age of Aquarius”). Everyone goes back to where they were at the time of the save file – Odin has lived a long life, Bor is “dead”, Buri/Tiwaz is in self-imposed exile, etc. Vili and Ve are alive, but powerless, having given their power to Odin to seal away Surtur. When Surtur escapes in Ragnarok, they are freed and then become the new Odin, per. Thor v1 294.
I think this reset theory solves some of the chronology problems related to Thor v1 294 vs. earlier and later stories. Some details are still errors (whether Thor’s red hair in Thor v1 293 or the barrel in Thor: Man of War, since they are mutually exclusive), but those are mostly cosmetic.
Two other issues that others have brought up:
1. In Thor: Truth of History, Thor and the Warriors Three travel to Egypt and fight Pharaoh Neb-Maat. This takes place “less than 4000 years ago.” However, this would place the Thor, etc., we see in an earlier Ragnarok cycle (unless Neb-Maat is a local tyrant in Giza who otherwise escapes recorded history, along with the griffin headed Sphinx which would contradict ancient Greek historians). If we treat red-headed Thor as an art choice, this is not a problem.
2. The bigger problem seems to be Thor Annual v1 8, at least on a surface read. This is specifically said to take place after Journey into Mystery Annual 1, in which Thor finds a passage leading to Olympus and fights Hercules. When he returns to the area, he and Loki find another fissure, and are affected by amnesiac gas. They emerge in Troy and fight in the Trojan War, with Loki responsible for inspiring Odysseus with the idea of the Trojan Horse. The problem is the Troy is not on a divine plane, but is a very human city, and the war, while legendary, is dated to around the end of the Bronze Age in c. 1250 BCE. This could just as easily be an earlier Thor, but Thor remembers his encounter(s) with Hercules in the present day, before he visits the Eyeball of Odin, and should have no recollection of his previous lives. However, Thor and Loki are time travelling. Zeus recognizes Thor, since he is a skyfather and probably met previous versions of Thor, but says on p. 16, “’Tis a matter ‘twixt us of Olympus, Asgardian. Best thou should return to thine own place and time.” Thor replies, “Time!? Then I was ripped untimely from mine own era, as I did suspect!”. This means that the “frame” era at the beginning can be almost any time during the current Common Era Ragnarok cycle, and there is no contradiction.
In terms of the project, this could affect Odin’s early history, as well as the placement of the Matt Fraction Ages of Thunder one-shots and Thor: Truth of History. I know this is old ground to tread, but recent issues suggest it is worth a least a few moments consideration.
What are your thoughts?