SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Frans » Thu May 21, 2015 3:31 pm

Hi Paul, also the issues of XML and NM are handled in the same thread I was referring to in your FEAR ITSELF thread. Can you please check, it can contain (and IMO contains) valuable information you now seem to miss.

Maybe you have reasons not to check the mentioned threads, but I for one am interested to know why. I've spent valuable time in there to establish Fear Itself, Second Coming and some other bits and pieces around that time area. If there are none, I'm happy to discuss certain placings stated in the threads.

Here's the thread again:
http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... f=2&t=6270

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat May 23, 2015 8:23 am

I see that this link was posted in the Fear Itself thread, but didn't click on it before because I figured it dealt with Fear Itself...itself, not the period prior. I totally forgot this thread from two years ago and didn't reconcile my notes with the chronologies outlined there.

There's lot of material here. Col_Fury, is it possible to incorporate this content into the chronology spine for Siege to Fear Itself and identify any contradictions?
Paul B.

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Col_Fury » Sat May 23, 2015 11:58 am

I'm going through it (thanks again, Frans!), but it's taking me a while. Big chunks line up, but there are a number of differences.

One thing that sticks out so far is D:DW 4. Johnny Storm appears, so before he dies (so before FF 583-588), but it also references the Bucky/Cap trial (CA 611). The Index says this:

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN "GRANT" ROGERS

[HAWK&MOCK 6]
[AACAD 5 (2 - 5)-FB]
[X:TS&P 2/3-BTS]
[H4 24 (22 - 24)]
[H4 25 (5 - 9:4)]
[H4 26 (1:1)-FB]
[H4 25 (9:5 - 9:6)]
[H2 25 (10 - 15:3)-FB]
[H4 30 (1:3)-FB]
[H4 25 (15:4 - 15:5)-FB]
[H4 26 (1:5)-FB]
[H4 25 (16)-FB]
[H4 26 (2 - 18:4)]
[H4 27 (1:4)-FB]
[H4 26 (18:5 - 23)]
[H4 27]
[H4 28]
[ASM 649]
[TASK2 3]
[TASK2 4]
[IM5 26-BTS]
[FF 588]
[A4 8-FB]
[A4 8]
[A4 9]
[A4 10]
[A4 11]
[A4 12]
[SECA 6-FB]
[SECA 6]
[SECA 7]
[KLAWS 4]
[SECA 8]
[SECA 9]
[SECA 10]
[SECA 11]
[SECA 12]
[CA&SECA 1]
[WIDOWMAKER 2-BTS]
[NA2 8-BTS]
[AACAD 11]
[AACAD 12]
[HAWK:BS 1]
[HAWK:BS 2]
[CA 606]


CAPTAIN AMERICA VII/JAMES BUCHANAN BARNES

[HAWK&MOCK 5]
[IAAA 5]
[FF 584]
[FF 588]
[CA&F2 1]
[CA&B 1]
[CA 606]

But according to D:DW 4, Bucky/Cap goes on trial (CA 606-611) before Johnny Storm dies (FF 588).

FF 588 was published the same month as CA 615 (!), A4 10 and between D:DW 5-6. Bucky/Cap appears in A4 12.1. So in theory, we're looking at:

A4 12.1
CA 606-611
D:DW 4
FF 588

And yet, Bucky/Cap appears in FF 588. It looks like something's going to have to be ignored. Bucky/Cap's appearance in FF 588, or a newspaper in D:DW 4? Could the newspaper in D:DW 4 be referring to something else? Or can Bucky appear as Cap in FF 588 after his trial?

I probably won't be able to make more progress until Sunday, but we'll see what happens!
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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Jason Doty » Sat May 23, 2015 12:43 pm

It has been along time since I read it, but does Daken notice the paper as he arrives in Madripoor. So a bunch of time could take place between getting the device from the FF and getting to Madripoor. He is sneaking in, in disguise, so possibly not a quick trip to get around all of the customs of the world?

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Frans » Sat May 23, 2015 1:25 pm

The news paper in D:DW4 does not refer to something else. It says: "Trial of Captain America, Cap revealed as Soviet Assassin Winter Soldier" and to top it up a picture in the newspaper of Bucky Barnes as the Winter Soldier. So there is not much leeway.

But I agree with Jason that a break can be placed within the pages of D:DW4. If we place D:DW4 (pages 1-19) that deal with Daken and FF in the Baxter Building after the story arc "Wolverine goes to Hell", and leave D:DW4 (pages 20-22) where they are, with the other issues of the story arc Empire Act 2, all problems regarding the news paper and Daken/Human Torch are solved. The FF only speak of Daken's death in the first 19 pages of D:DW4. I could not find anything that would work against this placing.

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Col_Fury » Sat May 23, 2015 4:01 pm

Sweet! :)

I'm still going through the topic (there are 16 pages!), but I'll be back soon.

Thanks, guys!
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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Col_Fury » Mon May 25, 2015 3:52 am

All right! :)

Big chunks line up between the Index’s chronology and this, but of course there are some differences (mostly in the latter half).

One big difference is the Index placed Chaos War before Shadowland, so unless we can prove Shadowland happens first…

As discussed above, D:DW 4 (1-19) happens before FF 588, and D:DW 4 (20-22) happens around the time of CA 611. Therefore, FF 588 has to happen before CA 606-611. CA 606 has to happen after A4 12.1, because Bucky’s still Cap in A4 12.1 (yes, A4 12.1 is an alternate reality; it’s a placeholder for AOU 10). So:

D:DW 4 (1-19) (Johnny’s alive)
FF 588 (Johnny dies, Bucky still Cap)
A4 12.1 (Bucky still Cap)
CA 606-611 (no more Bucky as Cap)
D:DW 4 (20-22) (Bucky’s trial referenced)

This lines up with the Index’s order, but differs from this order.

D:DW 9.1 was placed by the Index, but is now obviously in the wrong place. D:DW 4-8 all have to happen first, and D:DW 9.1 leads into D:DW 10. I’ve moved this to where this has it.

X-23 v3 #10-12 was placed by the Index later than this has it, but D:DW 9.1 ended up closer to where X-23 v3 #10 was placed by the Index, so that’s nice for publication order.

Avengers: Children’s Crusade was placed later by the Index than this has it, closer to the Fear Itself crossover, and before the Avengers/New Avengers Annuals (because of Wonder Man).

The X-Factor placements this has look pretty good, as well as some X-books odds-‘n-ends. I placed them pretty much where it suggests.

SIEGE
Avengers Prime 1-5
New Avengers v2 1 (1 - 7)
Sentry: Fallen Son
Iron Man v5 25
Avenger v4 1 (1-5)
FCBD: Iron Man/Thor
Secret Warriors 17-19
ASM 638-641
Iron Man/Thor 1-4
Thor 611-614
ASM 642-647
Avengers v4 1 (5-22) - 6
ASM 648 (1 - 25)
W:O 46-47 / DARKW 85-86
W:O 48-50
FC 19-20 / DARKW 89
HA:OML 1-5
W:WX 11-15
X-Factor 203
X: SECCOM 1-2 / XF 204-206 / UX 523-525 / NM3 12-14 / X:L 235-237 / XFOR3 26-28
NM3 15-21
W:WX 16
UX:HA
X-Men: Legacy 238-243
UX 526/2
UX 526-529 / GENH 1-4 / UX 529-534
X-Factor 207-214
DOOMWAR 6 (just the epilogue)
Vengeance of Moon Knight 9
Secret Avengers 1-FBs & 1-4
Steve Rogers: Super Soldier 1-4
Vengeance of Moon Knight 10
Avengers Academy 1-2
Secret Avengers 5
Invaders Now! 1-5
GENH 5
Incredible Hulks 612-617
HERC:FA 1-2
HA: Prince of Power 1-4
CHAOS WAR & tie-ins (inc Inc Hulks 618-620)
Incredible Hulks 621-623
New Avenger v2 1 (8 - 24) – 7
Thunderbolts 144-147 / Avengers Academy 3-4
Black Widow v6 1-5
ASTONSM&W 1-6
SHADOWLAND & tie-ins (inc DD 508-512 & TB 148-149)
Thunderbolts 150
Avengers Academy 5-6
Fantastic Four 575-580
FF@ 32
Ant-Man & Wasp 1-3 (1 - 20)
DARKW 90
X-Men v2 1-6 & Curse of the Mutants tie-ins (inc N3 1-4)
Wolverine & Jubliee 1-4
Namor, First Mutant 5
W:RTH
X-23 v3 1-3
Daken: Dark Wolverine 1-3
Wolverine v4 1-9
Namor, First Mutant 6-8
W:RTH /3
Uncanny X-Force 1-4 & 5.1
Wolverine v4 5.1
Thunderstrike v2 1-5
Hawkeye & Mockingbird 1-6
(red) HULK 25-28
ASM 648 (26 - 39)-651
Taskmaster v2 1-4
Avengers Academy 7
Ant-Man & Wasp 3 (21 - 22)
Iron Man V5 26-33
X-Factor 215-224
ASM 650/2-654/2, 654.1 (1 - 5), 652-654, 654.1 (6 - 20)
Venom 1
ASM 655-656
X-23 v3 4-7
D:DW 4 (start)
Fantastic Four 581-588
ASM 657
New Avengers v2 8
Avengers Academy 8-9
Avengers v4 7-12
A4 12.1 / Age of Ultron #10
Secret Avengers 6-7
KLAWS of the Panther 1-4
Uncanny X-Force 5-9
UX@ 3 / SR:SS@ 1 / Namor@ 1
X:L 244-248 / NM3 24-25 & Age of X tie-ins
Namor, the First Mutant 9-11
SKAAR:KSL 1-5
Secret Avengers 8-12
Widowmaker 1-4
New Avengers v2 9-13 & 14-FB
ASTONX3 36-42
Avengers Academy 10-12
FF 1-2 (start)
Hakweye: Blind Spot 1-4
CA 606-611
Cap Corps 1-5
D:DW 4 (end)-7
D:DW 8-9 / X-23 v3 8-9
GENH 6-8
Avengers Academy Giant-Size
Avengers Academy 13
Onslaught Unleashed 1-4
UX 534.1 & 535-538 & 526/2
ASTONX 43
ASM@ 38, DPOOL@ 1, H@2 1
CA 612-615
D:DW 9.1-20
IM 500-503
Avengers Academy 14
ASM 658-660
X-23 v3 10-12
ASM 658/2-660/2
Avengers: Children’s Crusade 1-9 (1 - 15)
X-Factor 225-228
UX 539
NM3 28
ASM 661-662
Punisher v9 1-4
CA 616-619
HERC 1-2
ASM 663-664, 664/2
NA@2 1 / A@2 1
FEAR ITSELF

Thanks again, everyone! :)

Up next: FEAR ITSELF to AvX!
-Daron Jensen

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon May 25, 2015 8:19 am

Great, Col_Fury! One thing I noticed quickly...

I propose changing
CA 606-611
to
CA 606-611 / CACORPS 1-5
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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Col_Fury » Mon May 25, 2015 10:35 am

Thanks! :mrgreen:
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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:44 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Iron Man/Thor 1-4
Thor 611-614
ASM 642-647 <====================
Avengers v4 1 (5-22) - 6
ASM 648 (1 - 25)
W:O 46-47 / DARKW 85-86
W:O 48-50
FC 19-20 / DARKW 89 <=============
HA:OML 1-5
According to the Punisher Index, Morbius goes from FC 21 to ASM 642. Are we overruling that?

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:13 pm

Yes.

Took me a while to look into this one; sorry about that. Morbius should have ASM 642 moved to before FC 17.
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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Aragorn45 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:43 pm

I think that Avengers: The Children's Crusade should be placed after Fear Itself. It should be in between Avengers 18 and Avengers 19. Steve Rogers is Captain America, and he didn't become Cap again until Fear Itself. The Young Avengers Vision is destroyed at the end of the miniseries, which then prompts Tony Stark to get the remains of the Vision out of the warehouse. The Vision then appears functional again in Avengers 19.

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:44 pm

To be fair, we don't know how long it took Tony to get around to rebuilding the Vision. As long as A:CC happens before A4 19, everything's fine, really.

Marvel editorial has said that the Avengers / New Avengers Annuals (where Wonder Man has a psychotic break and attacks the Avengers) happens before Fear Itself; A:CC (which features a stable Wonder Man) should happen before those Annuals (where he's crazy).

Of course, that leaves Steve Rogers wearing the wrong clothes in A:CC.

Yes, it would be cleaner to have A:CC after Fear Itself for Steve. However, Marvel editorial (them again!) has said that A:CC happens before Steve resumes being Cap, and to ignore his uniform. We would have to show that Marvel's position (A:CC is before Fear Itself, as are those Annuals) is impossible. They are the authority, after all.

Currently, we have A:CC happening during a time when the current Cap (Bucky) is awaiting trial, so I suppose it's not inconceivable that Steve put on the suit for a bit, even if it is uncomfortable.

Thanks Aragorn45, and welcome to the MCP!
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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Aragorn45 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:40 am

I was under the impression that Wonder Man was let of prison by the Avengers in Children's Crusade in order to look for Wanda. He was crazy before then, but finding Wanda made him feel better and softened his feelings toward the Avengers. He then appeared with Captain America after AVX wanting to reconcile with them. He wants to be around the team again because Wanda is around again. So Children's Crusade happens after the annuals, and the best place for it was in between Avengers 18-19.

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Re: SIEGE to FEAR ITSELF

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:17 pm

Col_Fury wrote:The X-Factor placements this has look pretty good, as well as some X-books odds-‘n-ends. I placed them pretty much where it suggests.

ASM 648 (26 - 39)-651
Taskmaster v2 1-4
Avengers Academy 7
Ant-Man & Wasp 3 (21 - 22)
Iron Man V5 26-33
ASM 650/2-654/2, 654.1 (1 - 5), 652-654, 654.1 (6 - 20)
Venom 1
ASM 655-656
X-Factor 215-224
X-23 v3 4-7
A note in the intro page of XF 216 says "This issue takes place before ASM 654."

I don't see any clues requiring XF 216 to take place prior to ASM 654, other than Spidey is in his classic costume (he doesn't display a spider-sense), but I certainly don't see any reason to overrule that editorial intent, either. I'd be inclined to place XF 215-220 just after Iron Man 33 (IIM 33), unless I'm missing something.

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