Hulk Smash Avengers #2

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Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:15 am

Like most of the issues in this series it's more open about where it fits in Avengers chronology than in the Hulk's - even if it's wrong.

In the thread 'Placement of Hulk Smash Avengers #2' Paul Bourcier corrected the issue's claim that it comes before Av#181. All the Avengers-based references point to it being between #182 and #183.

But I believe there are also clues as to where the author intended it to fit in Hulk's chronology.

Steve Rogers says Falcon went missing after a SHIELD training stint. I believe this refers to Sam Wilson training the SHIELD Super-Agents in CA#217-218, and Cap learning he's missing in #222. But Steve doesn't take it seriously until the 'Search for the Falcon' arc in CA#228-230 and Hulk #232.

I believe this is where the writer intends Cap to go when he leaves this issue.

I believe it also ties in with the Hulk app on the 1st page. The spaceship he breaks out of saying he doesn't want to be space bug's lab rat is the 1 he escapes from at the end of his #230. He referred to the alien there as bug-thing, who was trying to take samples of his metabolism.

In #231 Hulk wanders into another California town to gain a new sidekick before being captured by the Corporation in CA#230 and his own #232. Also in Hulk #231 we meet Senator Hawk who is investigating Gamma Base, as mentioned in this issue. He also appears in #233,234,238,239,240. (You seem to have missed these, only having him in earlier Iron Man issues.)

So my guess is that the writer intended this issue to fit between Hulk #230 and #231. And the 'Search for the Falcon' to fit between Av#182 and #183. (I don't know whether that would make it impossible for Scarlet Witch to embark in #183 as soon as tomorrow evening.)

Hulk #232 was dated Feb 1979 and Av#182 was Apr 1979 so it's not a stretch to fit these stories together. Unfortunately the MCP timelines have been set up differently.

Is it worth me investigating the possible changes?

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:04 am

I think it's worth looking in to!
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:44 pm

I'm working on it, honest!

I quickly came to the conclusion that the easiest solution to attempt would be to move issues of Cap and Hulk's own mags, but try to leave their guest apps where they are.

As part of the project I created a spread sheet of appearances for significant players, in order to see where the moved Cap and Hulk issues would slot in for other characters.

But while I was doing this I came across some discrepancies which confused the issue of a) producing a common timeline, and b) finding communal places to fit the moved issues into. So I want to use this post to sort these out 1st.



The 1st problem is with ASM 187 for Spider-Man, Captain America and Dum-Dum Dugan. I also have to drag Iron Man in to provide added linkages.
I've asterisked all the connections.

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
....
GZILL 23***
GZILL 24***
CA 228***
A 179 (1 - 7)
A 180 (3:2)-FB
A 179 (8 - 13:6)
A 180 (3:3)-FB
A 179 (13:7 - 17)
A 180
HC 1/3-FB
HC 1/3***
DS2 35***
IM 113 (9 - 17)
IM 114***
IM 115***
IM 116
IM@ 11/4
GSA2 1/2 ***
....

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN "GRANT" ROGERS
....
GZILL 23***
CA 228***
CA 229
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
CA 231
CA 232
CA 233
CA 234
CA 235
CA 236
DS2 35***
CA 237***
CA 238-FB
CA 238
CA 239
IM 114***
IM 115***
ASM 187***
GSA2 1/2***
....

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
....
GZILL 24***
M/TU 80
M/TU 81
X 123
M/TU 90
M/TU@ 2
M/TU 86
M/TU 87
M/TU 88
M/TU 89
CA 237***
M/TU 91
PPSSM 25
PPSSM 26
PPSSM 27
PPSSM 28
PPSSM 29
PPSSM 30
PPSSM 31
PPSSM 32 (1 - 6)
ASM 187***
....

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"
....
GZILL 23***
GZILL 24***
Q 1 (23:3)
ASM 187***
HC 1/3***
....

Cap and IM combine to provide a solid support, and Spidey's few links aren't a problem. But for Dugan the order of ASM 187 and HC 1/3 conflicts with that in the combined Cap/IM timeline. And their DS2 35 crosslink even puts Dugan's ASM 287 higher than CA 237 - and so clashes with Spidey's timeline as well.

The obvious minimal solution is to move ASM 187 for Dugan below HC 1/3. HC 1/3 is the start of a long run of a SHIELD strip in HC issues for Dugan, which are considered continuous so ASM 187 would end up below them all. Which is not a problem.

The other possibility would be to push Dugan's HC apps down far enough to let his ASM 187 meet the other 2. But this would not only mean moving IM's HC 1/3 as well, but Nick Fury also appears there and in many other HC issues too. So the other solution wins out because it is Dugan's ASM 187 which doesn't currently agree with anyone else. Dugan's app in ASM 187 is generic SHIELD team-leading with no reference to any other.

And therefore of course this solution minimises the changes, which are just:-

DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"
current:-
....
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
Q 1 (23:3)
ASM 187 move to before MICRO 12
HC 1/3
HC 2/2
HC 3/3
HC 5/3
HC 6/3
HC 7/2
HC 9/3
HC 11/3
HC 12/3
HC 13/3
HC 14/3
HC 15/3
HC 16/3
HC 17/3
MICRO 12
FF 214
....
changed to:-
....
GZILL 23
GZILL 24
Q 1 (23:3)
HC 1/3
HC 2/2
HC 3/3
HC 5/3
HC 6/3
HC 7/2
HC 9/3
HC 11/3
HC 12/3
HC 13/3
HC 14/3
HC 15/3
HC 16/3
HC 17/3
ASM 187 moved from before HC 1/3
MICRO 12
FF 214
....



The 2nd problem is more localised and concerns the positioning of M/TIO@ 4.

Jarvis has M/TIO@ 4 followed by A 179-180
Iron Man has A 179-180 followed by HC 1/3
Nick Fury has HC 1/3-19/3 followed by M/TIO@ 4
The M/TIO star Thing is happy with either place.

Jarvis's app in M/TIO@ 4 is more than a cameo, and also relates to an earlier app with villain Graviton and damsel in distress Judy Parks. But that was back in A 159 and so doesn't affect the placement of this issue.
So again because the HC issues affect IM and NF (and Dugan as we've seen before), it's simpler to move the Jarvis app in M/TIO@ 4 to below A 179-180.

JARVIS, EDWIN
current:-
....
DD 156
CA 229
M/TIO@ 4 move to before FF 204
A 179
A 180-BTS
FF 204
GSA2 1/2
....
changed to:-
....
DD 156
CA 229
A 179
A 180-BTS
M/TIO@ 4 moved from before A 179
FF 204
GSA2 1/2
....


Both these problems involved the Hulk Comic SHIELD strip. This raises the question could both have been solved together by moving the HC issues instead. However this problem would have required HC 1/3-19/3 to be move back in time to before A 179-180, while the previous problem would have required then to be moved forward in time to after the required position for ASM 187. So the solutions couldn't both be applied together without major changes elsewhere.



The next problem is similarly localised and concerns the positioning of M/SH3 10/3-11/3, which are effectively what was going to be Ms Marvel #24-25.

Iron Man has M/SH3 10/3-11/3 followed by FF 214.
Dum-Dum Dugan (him again) and Jarvis have FF 214 followed by M/TIO 51.
Ms Marvel has M/TIO 51 followed by M/SH3 10/3-11/3 (1 - 5:2).
Other characters in the M/SH3 issues can fit in either place.
It doesn't say so but IM in #11/3 is only in p1-5:2. The rest of #11/3 is split into short parts for MsM all of which take place much later.

M/SH3 10/3 should stay after M/TIO 51. Jarvis hosts the floating superhero poker game in M/TIO 51 and MsM is allowed to join in. Then in M/SH3 10/3 IM says he's heard from Jarvis that MsM is a good poker player.
IM, Jarvis and Dugan only have generic cameos in FF 214, which have no connection to the other issues.

Again the simplest solution seems best, to move the M/SH3 issues below FF 214 for IM.

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
current:-
....
A 184
A 185
M/S-H3 10/3
M/S-H3 11/3
FF 214 move to after A 185
IM 117-FB
IM 117
....
changed to :-
....
A 184
A 185
FF 214 moved from before IM 117-FB
M/S-H3 10/3
M/S-H3 11/3
IM 117-FB
IM 117
....


Lastly, M/TU@ 2 doesn't actually cause a clash but rather an unfortunate bunching of issues. And this probably arose from a peculiarity of the M/TU series around this time.

We have for Hulk
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH@ 8
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
HC 1-28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
M/TU@ 2
followed by for Spider-Man
M/TU@ 2
M/TU 86
M/TU 87
M/TU 88
M/TU 89
CA 237

These all have to fit between CA 230 and CA 237. Currently for Cap this is an unbroken sequence. I can posit a break between 231 (1 - 11:5) and 231 (11:6 - 17) (which I will actually make use of in my solution to the original aim of this thread.) But even so this means that nearly all of the above issues must happen in that gap. It is also true that this gap would be almost empty for the other characters I've had to investigate for the purposes of this thread. (And the periods after M/TU@ 2 for Hulk and before M/TU@ 2 for Spidey are similarly barren.)

The peculiarity of M/TU is that many of its issues around this point have to be taken out of sequence (according to the Official Index to Marvel Team-Up and to your good selves).

1979's M/TU@ 2 would probably have been published alongside the November-dated comics. But it is placed chronologically after M/TU 90 from Feb '80, and both of them are then moved to between #81 and #86. That gap is because #82-85 are taken (along with #79) and placed much later, beyond the view of my current investigation.

All this juggling means that publication dates of M/TU issues are useless as a rough guide to where something fits chronologically. I would say it is more significant that all the Spidey issues above are placed between ASM 186 and 187 (Nov and Dec '78). Similarly the FF chars in M/TU@ 2 are inserted between FF 203 and 204 (Feb and Mar '79). The general gist is that M/TU@ 2 occurs earlier than its publication date (~ Nov '79) would indicate.

But the Hulk chronology bucks that trend. M/TU@ 2 is listed between IH2 243 and 244 (Jan and Feb '80). Whereas moving it back to Nov-Dec '78, in line with ASM 186-187, would put it between IH2 229 and 230. This doesn't clash with any characters' timelines, it just closes up large gaps. For Hulk it allows us to spread the above issues out beyond where M/TU@ 2 was.

M/TU@ 2 starts with Bruce Banner hiding in Montana. Having it following HMAG 17-18 where Bruce/Hulk was in Africa doesn't make for a solid link. Putting it after IH2 229 is quite reasonable. 229 ended a period where Bruce was in control of Hulk undergoing psychiatry by Doc Samson on Gamma Base. But 229 ended with Hulk back in control and on the run again. Subsequent issues have him in various parts of the US, and do feature switches between Hulk and Bruce.

While I'm dabbling here I'd move IH@ 8 slightly too. An editorial comment at the beginning says it's between IH2 237 and 238, which is where you've put it. But you put HC 1-28 in a created gap between 238 (1 - 8) and 238 (9 - 17). This is sensible because p1-8 is a coda to 237 which ends with Hulk leaping away. Then he turns up somewhere else in p9-17 which starts the next set of issues. For the same reason it is more sensible to put the Canadian tale of IH@ 8 in that gap too. (In fact when he lands in 238 p9 an editorial comment says he's just back from Canada in the annual.)

So my total changes are:-

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
current:-
....
IH2 229
IH2 230
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH@ 8 moved to before HC 1
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
M/TU@ 2 moved to after IH2 229
DEF 119-FB
HSMASHA 2
....
changed to:-
....
IH2 229
M/TU@ 2 moved from after HMAG 18
IH2 230
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
IH@ 8 moved from after IH2 237
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
DEF 119-FB
HSMASHA 2
....



Next time I really will give my proposal for connecting HSMASHA 2 tightly to Hulk continuity.
Last edited by robfj on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:29 am

And another thing.

I think the introduction of HSMASHA 2 messed up a bit of your Defenders continuity.

DEF 119-FB says it goes between DEF 68 and 69 and has internal reasons why this is so.
It starts with Hulk away from Defenders, so I guess it made sense to put it just before DEF 69 and insert a bunch of non-DEF Hulk apps before it.
Then when you wanted somewhere to insert ALIAS 25-26-FBs, putting them between DEF 119-FB and DEF 69 was a good idea probably for a couple of reasons. There was no clash with the target positioning for the Avengers members. And DEF 119-FB was helpful in linking up the Defenders cast. Sub-Mariner wasn't a member of the team at this time. Dr Strange *was* frequently involved but wasn't currently a live-in member. DrS wasn't in DEF 68 but he was dragged by the villain into DEF 119-FB, and he called in Namor to help. This explains why they were around for the ALIAS FB's. (DrS stayed for DEF 69, but Subby presumably went back to Atlantis.) Nothing explains why Silver Surfer was in the ALIAS FB's too, but he must have just dropped in for a visit.

So what's wrong?

HSMASHA 2 has Hulk well away from the Defenders, but it has been plonked between DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS FB's, breaking the neatly established link.

So I just propose to move DEF 119-FB to after HSMASHA 2, restoring the link DEF 119-FB to ALIAS FB's to DEF 69. Understandably it has no side-effects on the other Defenders.

The tail end of the earlier Hulk list then becomes:-

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
current:-
....
HMAG 18
DEF 119-FB moved to after HSMASHA 2
HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB
DEF 69
....
changed to:-
....
HMAG 18
HSMASHA 2
DEF 119-FB moved from before HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB
DEF 69
....



Conspiracy theorists who may suspect that these 2 corrections to the Hulk's continuity will make it easier for me to change things to suit my grand masterplan are right.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:02 pm

And a revised thing.

I discover I've slipped up while moving M/TU@ 2 for the Hulk. It creates a clash for the preceding M/TU 90, which Beast's timeline has after CA 228-229 which are part of the CA block linked to IH2 232. This means that M/TU@ 2 should go later in Hulk's timeline. The 1st existing gap is after IH2 238 (1 - 8) (which is where I shifted IH@ 8 too).

The revised changes are:-

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
current:-
....
IH2 229
IH2 230
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH@ 8 move to before HC 1
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
M/TU@ 2 move to after IH2 237
DEF 119-FB move to after HSMASHA 2
HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB
DEF 69
....
changed to:-
....
IH2 229
IH2 230
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
M/TU@ 2 moved from after HMAG 18
IH@ 8 moved from after IH2 237
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
HSMASHA 2
DEF 119-FB moved from before HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB
DEF 69


This doesn't empty the CA gap as much as before, but it still moves a lot out of it.

And it's all academic if you accept my larger as-yet-unrevealed proposal because then I'll move the CA and IH2 232 block anyway, and the clash with Beast's timeline will evaporate, and M/TU@ 2 will automatically find itself where I put it in my earlier post.
Last edited by robfj on Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:04 am

Squeezing another 1 in.

I'm updating Senator Hawk's entries as mentioned in my 1st post.

HAWK, ANDREW JACKSON
current:-
IM 95
IM 96
IM 97
IM 99
IM 100
HSMASHA 2
changed to:-
IM 95
IM 96
IM 97
IM 99
IM 100
IH2 231 }
IH2 233 }
IH2 234 } added
IH2 238 }
IH2 239 }
IH2 240 }
HSMASHA 2

That should be the position in current chronology. His involvement just petered out in IH2 240, but he was still investigating Gamma Base's suitability for funding.

My grand plan would move HSMASHA 2 to before IH2 231. But I wanted to list this intermediate version because I've now reached the conclusion that my grand plan has a serious flaw. (Continued in next post.)

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:56 am

The outlook may not be as dire as I thought. I think I can suggest a way out of the problem I have with the Hulk chronology.

In the meantime this particular post adjusts the timelines of Captain America and Falcon. My next post will look at Hulk's chronology, and probably that of Dr Strange. If I successfully get through that then the 1 after that will consider the effects of all this on other characters, which I don't think will present great difficulties.



The simplest idea for the grand plan is to move a lot of Cap issues forward in time relative to Avengers, dragging Hulk's stuff with it. I thought Hulk issues would be less likely to cause problems than the Cap ones. (Little did I know!)

There is a large gap between A 177 and 181 filled with 3 fill-in issues and an Annual, plus lots of issues of Cap, Iron Man and Thor, and other stuff.

Cap gets #217-239, IM gets #113-116 + an Annual, Thor gets #269-282 + an Annual.
A 177 has publishing date Nov 78 alongside CA 227, IM 116, T 277.
A 181 was Mar 79 alongside CA 231, IM 120, T 281.
Thus IM is lagging a bit while Thor is catching up with a lot of old stuff.
Cap is also catching up but also races ahead. But noticeably the arc we are interested in 228-230 is in the middle of the A range.

Another way of looking at it is that A 181 was obviously written as continuing from 177, with all the heroes from the Korvac Saga still hanging around and David Michelinie resuming the writing from where he left off in 176 (Jim Shooter wrote 177, the end of his plotted Korvac Saga). A 178 and the 2-part 179-180 were fill-in stories with no direct connection to the ongoing storyline. If 181 had been published immediately after 177 then 181-183 would have dates Dec 78-Feb 79, the same as CA 228-230. This suggests, with Roger Stern editing both series and writing Hulk at the time, that maybe the connection Joe Casey has constructed in this issue was actually intended all along!

Be that as it may, we are concerned here with getting CA 228-230 alongside HSMASHA 2 in the MCP timelines. The obvious line to take is just to do that and to move CA 231-239 to after HSMASHA#2 and see what problems this causes.

An immediate problem is that in A 179 p5:2 Vision says Cap has left the city on urgent business, and an editorial comment directs us to CA 229, which is why you place Iron Man and Thor's apps in CA 228-229 immediately before that issue. I'm going to *have* to argue that we ignore that link in order to get anywhere.

This editorial comment is on a par with topical references - it just quotes the Cap issue number that's published in the same month. Vision's words are more specific, but I think I can find another candidate for the reference. In CA 218 Cap heads for Newfoundland to investigate his past. This is certainly out-of-town, but arguably is more personal than urgent.

Another possible anchoring point for issues occurs in CA 237. Falcon finds Cap's apartment deserted so he goes to Avengers Mansion where he meets up with Beast, Ms Marvel, Vision and Wasp. Then Steve Rogers arrives to say he's moved to a new place. Currently this is set along with everything else between A 177 and 181, where almost anybody could be found at the Mansion. But this issue was published at the same time as A 187, during the period when those 6 were the official team (Iron Man being absent due to events in 124-128 in his own mag). IM is with the Avengers for the opening bit of 185 (p1-5). Then there's a gap until Pietro and Wanda arrive in Transia, where the Avengers minus Iron Man join them for 186-188. IM is back for Annual 9 and A 189. So CA 237 could be placed between A 185 and 186 or between 188 and A@ 9.

Those connections and the aim to link HSMASHA 2 to CA 228-230 will be the guide for my reorganisation.



But 1st I'll see where the CA issues could be divided into separate blocks.

If necessary we could split CA 217 into p1-15 where Falcon starts training the SHIELD Super-Agents and p16-17 which connect directly with 218.
218-221 cover the trip to Newfoundland where Cap faces Lyle Dekker's Ameridroid (with a bit more of Falcon and the Super-Agents in 218).

You have a gap before 222 where you currently insert M/TU#71.

In 222 Cap hears that Falcon has gone missing from SHIELD, but then he goes to Washington and back to uncover his hidden past. This takes us through 225 (missing 224 which is an out-of-sequence tale), leading straight into the latest Red Skull plot in 226-227.

Then there's another gap with lots of stuff including A@ 8 and A 178.

Cap claims that 228 immediately follows the Red Skull story (226-227) and the Korvac saga (the editor quotes A 176-177). As well as ignoring a lot that MCP have put in since Korvac, the wording even suggests that the Skull stuff came 1st. (Now I'd dearly love to shovel stuff out of the gap between A 177 and 181, to make it less unlikely that everyone would still be hanging around Avengers Mansion to be shouted at by Henry Peter Gyrich. But that would *definitely* require a separate thread!)
In 228-230 & IH2 232 Cap tracks down the missing Falcon, alongside A 179.
The 1st half of 231 is definitely an epilogue to the 'Search for Falcon' and belongs with it. p1-9 definitely belong to this 1st half. Here Falcon says he wants to fly solo for a while. This was actually him resigning as Cap's partner (which he'd effectively stopped being some issues ago), and Cap accepts it.

A split could be made somewhere in 231 p10-12:2 which just have Cap getting on with his life. I'd suggest between p11:5 and p11:6. In p10-11:5 Cap gets home and tidies his apartment which got trashed in 222, then goes to bed. (This doesn't make much sense since we've got a big gap between 227 and 228. But in 228 he also returned to the trashed apt and had no time to deal with it then) In p11:6-12:2 he can't sleep and goes to greet the dawn as Cap. They don't *have* to be the same night.

231 p12:3-17 start the Grand Director arc. During this Cap goes to Sam's office to 'keep an eye on it until he returns' - strangely expecting Falcon to have abandoned his job as well as their partnership. This arc takes Cap through 236. 237 p1-4 is an epilogue to that, with a press conference and confirmation that Sharon Carter died during the story.

Then it actually says there's a week gap, but you currently don't have anything here. However when Cap resurfaces he says he needed the time alone to sort things out so probably there *shouldn't* be any apps in this period. (DS2#35 is placed between 236 and 237, presumably in a gap before the press conference.)

Falcon returns to the comic in 237 p5-16. This time *he's* looking for *Cap*. Steve's apartment is deserted. Falcon goes to Avengers Mansion where he finds Beast, Ms Marvel, Vision and Wasp. Then Steve turns up and tells them he's moved to a new place, and is starting a new life as a commercial artist. We meet his new neighbours and have a WWII flashback.

There can be another gap before 237 p17 & 238-239 which contain a standalone story, but you don't take advantage of it.

After that there's stuff including A 181-182 and 183-185 (where Cap brings Falcon into the Avengers). Then another standalone story in CA 240. Them more stuff including A 186-188. Then single-issues CA 241 and 242.

I guess 1 of the reasons to include up to CA 237 before A 181 was to get all the Falcon stuff in CA out of the way before attaching him to the Avengers. But my changes will achieve the same thing apart from 237 itself. The next app of Falcon in CA is 251, well after he leaves the Avengers in A 194.



Turning now to Falcon's current view of things:-

He's only been seen in CA issues for a while leading up to 217-218 (training SHIELD Super-Agents).

Between there and CA 222 (where Cap learns he's gone missing) he has a solo story in CA 220/2 and apps in M/TU 71 and DEF 62-64 (where he temporarily joins the Defenders along with a load of other heroes). In fact since Cap shares M/TU 71 with him all but CA 220/2 have to happen between CA 221 and #222.

Then in CA 230 & IH2 232 Cap finds Falc (and his fellow prisoner his nephew Jim - Hulk's pal) and they fight the Corporation.
CA 231 p1-11.5 Falcon resigns as Cap's partner and stays in California with Jim for a while.

Sam Wilson doesn't do anything between CA 231 and 237.

In CA 237 p4-16 Falcon (possibly returning from California, but it doesn't say so) can't find Cap. He goes to see the Avengers. Steve Rogers turns up.

Then Sam goes quiet again.

In A 183 Cap asks Falcon to join the team, but he's reluctant.
In A 184 Cap brings Falcon in, and they join in the current battle with Absorbing Man.
A 185 p1-5 is an epilogue to that fight.

During the gap here Falcon is with Cap and Iron Man and some other Avengers in FF@ 14 and IM 125.

Then in A 186-188 the team with Wonder Man instead of Iron Man help Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.



My plan for moving the CA issues is to generally put them where other CA issues exist. I will move 238-239 and 240 to join 241-242 after A 186-188. I will use the extra split points I have identified to generate a larger number of blocks within 217-237. But then I have a large number of pre-A 186 CA slots to fill.

I will leave all apps of Cap and Falcon outside of CA issues where they are to minimise what I have to crosscheck.

This results in:-

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN "GRANT" ROGERS

current:-
....
A 177 (12 - 18)
A:KS
CX 20 (12)
T 271
CA 217 split into (1 - 15) and (16 - 17)
leave (1 - 15) here
include (16 - 17) with CA 218
CA 218 }
CA 219 } move to
CA 220 } before DS2 35
CA 221 }
M/TU 71
CA 222 }
CA 223 }
CA 225 } move to
CA 226 } after DS2 35
CA 227-FB }
CA 227 }
A@ 8
M/TIO 42
M/TIO 43
A 201/2
A 178
A 179-FB
DD 155
DD 156
DD 157
GZILL 23
CA 228 move to before HSMASHA 2
CA 229 split into (1 - 4) and (5 - 17)
include (1 - 4) with CA 228
include (5 - 17) with CA 230
CA 230 (1 - 14:3) }
Q 2-FB } move to
CA 230 (14:4 - 17) } after HSMASHA 2
IH2 232 }
CA 231 split into (1 - 11:5) and (11:6 - 17)
include (1 - 11:5) with IH2 232
include (11:6 - 17) with CA 232
CA 232 }
CA 233 } move to
CA 234 } after
CA 235 } IM 125 etc
CA 236 }
DS2 35
CA 237 split into (1 - 16) and (17)
I'm not splitting (1 - 16) because there should be no Cap apps in the week off
include (1 - 16) with CA 236
include (17) with CA 238
CA 238-FB } move to
CA 238 } after
CA 239 } A 188
IM 114
IM 115
ASM 187
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:1)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
HSMASHA 2
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
A 183
A 184
A 185
CA 240 move to before CA 241
FF 215
FF@ 14
IM 125 (1 - 8:2)
IM/CA:COW (32:3 - 33:1)-FB
IM/CA:COW (33:3)-FB
IM/CA:COW (34:1)-FB
IM 125 (8:3 - 8:10)
IM/CA:COW (35:1)-FB
IM/CA:COW (35:3)-FB
IM/CA:COW (37)-FB
A 186
A 187
A 188
CA 241
CA 242
M/PRM 49
A@ 9
A 189
CA 243
....

Changed to:-
....
A 177 (12 - 18)
A:KS
CX 20 (12)
T 271
CA 217 (1 - 15) left here
M/TU 71
A@ 8
M/TIO 42
M/TIO 43
A 201/2
A 178
A 179-FB
DD 155
DD 156
DD 157
GZILL 23
CA 217 (16 - 17) }
CA 218 } moved from
CA 219 } before
CA 220 } M/TU 71
CA 221 }
DS2 35
CA 222 }
CA 223 }
CA 225 } moved from
CA 226 } before A@ 8
CA 227-FB }
CA 227 }
IM 114
IM 115
ASM 187
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:1)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
CA 228 } moved from
CA 229 (1 - 4) } after GZILL 23
HSMASHA 2
CA 229 (5 - 17) }
CA 230 (1 - 14:3) }
Q 2-FB } moved from
CA 230 (14:4 - 17) } between CA 228
IH2 232 } and CA 232
CA 231 (1 - 11:5) }
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS
A 183
A 184
A 185
FF 215
FF@ 14
IM 125 (1 - 8:2)
IM/CA:COW (32:3 - 33:1)-FB
IM/CA:COW (33:3)-FB
IM/CA:COW (34:1)-FB
IM 125 (8:3 - 8:10)
IM/CA:COW (35:1)-FB
IM/CA:COW (35:3)-FB
IM/CA:COW (37)-FB
CA 231 (11:6 - 17) }
CA 232 }
CA 233 } moved from
CA 234 } before
CA 235 } DS2 35
CA 236 }
CA 237 (1 - 16) moved from after DS2 35
A 186
A 187
A 188
CA 237 (17) }
CA 238-FB } moved from
CA 238 } before
CA 239 } IM 114
CA 240 moved from after A 185
CA 241
CA 242
M/PRM 49
A@ 9
A 189
CA 243
....

Ignoring the bits about splitting issues:-
218-221 replaces 228-230 & IH2 232 & 231-236, and accepts the link from A 179.
222-227 replaces 237-239.
228-230 & IH2 232 & 231 inserts around HSMASHA 2 as required.
232-237 inserts before A 186 where the particular collection of Avengers fit.
238-240 join 241-242.
I've kept the whole of 237 together, so there's still a 1 week gap in there in which Cap/Steve should make no appearances.

Cap still has about the same number of apps between 222 where he learns his pal's gone missing and 228 where he starts looking for him.
The reference in 228 to being soon after the Korvac Saga is now even further adrift.

But now the decision to look for Falcon happens twice, in 228 and in HSMASHA 2. Both scenes start out in Avengers Mansion. In both Iron Man and Beast are present, and Scarlet Witch and Vision are off by themselves deep in conversation. But there the similarity ends. In HSMASHA 2 Cap announces his quest to a meeting of Beast, IM, Hawkeye and Gyrich. In CA 228 he chats with IM about his life in general. Hercules and Thor are around. Beast leaves on a date instead of hanging around for the as-yet-undeclared Hulk mission. And most damningly of all Cap only remembers about the missing Falcon after he's left the Mansion.
I believe I have salvaged the situation by juggling things around a bit, and put CA 228 and some of CA 229 before HSMASHA 2:-
228 Cap leaves the Mansion and remembers Nick Fury telling him in 222 that Falcon had disappeared from the training program. He goes to the barbershop SHIELD New York base and finds it deserted. He contacts Jasper Sitwell who tells him the base was compromised over the last many CA issues. Besides which the Super-Agents were relocated to Los Angeles (presumably before Falcon left). Contacting *them* he learns that Sam Wilson left to help his nephew Jim (an old friend of the Hulk). Then Constrictor attacks.
229 (1 - 4) Cap gets Constrictor to confirm that the Corporation had sent him to try to capture Jim Wilson in IH2 212. He now knows that Sam is probably in trouble and it happened in California.
HSMASHA 2 (Cap returns to Avengers Mansion to tell the team he's leaving for a while. Beast has returned from his date.) But Steve gets caught up in 1 of Gyrich's ranty meetings, until he gets the chance to say his piece when HPG asks why Falcon hasn't joined the group yet. He says Falcon is missing and he's going to the West Coast to interview some special Agents (the Super-Agents). (He knows this because of 228-229.) He leaves.
229 (5 - 9:1) Cap goes to his apartment to grab some clothes and money. But the place was wrecked in 222, and his only spare suit and his credit cards got lost in a train crash in 223. So he heads *bask* to the Mansion and begs some stuff off his pals. The ever-reliable Jarvis comes up trumps.
229 (9:2 - 17) Cap travels west by bus. He confronts the Super-Agents and uncovers Blue Streak as working for the Corporation. He learns where they're holding Falcon.
Then in CA#230 & Hulk#232 Cap finds Falc and they fight the Corporation.
In CA#231 (1 - 11:5) Falcon resigns as Cap's partner and stays with Jim. But presumably he brings him back to New York to their relatives because that's where we'll see Jim in his next apps.

I think Cap's slow bus trip west has already destroyed the claim in HSMASHA 2 that Scarlet Witch will leave on a boat the next evening in A 183, even if SHIELD fly him back.

I can't find anything else in Cap's apps themselves which contradicts these changes. But that's because his own series in this period doesn't refer to events outside itself, and his other apps have a generic Cap.



FALCON II/SAM WILSON

Current:-
....
CA 217
CA 218 } move to
CA 220/2 } before CA 230
M/TU 71
DEF 62
DEF 63
DEF 64
CA 230
IH2 232
CA 231
CA 237 move to before A 186
A 183
A 184
A 185
FF@ 14
IM 125
A 186
A 187
A 188
M/PRM 49
A 189
....

Changed to:-
....
CA 217
M/TU 71
DEF 62
DEF 63
DEF 64
CA 218 } moved from
CA 220/2 } after CA 217
CA 230
IH2 232
CA 231
A 183
A 184
A 185
FF@ 14
IM 125
CA 237 moved from after CA 231
A 186
A 187
A 188
M/PRM 49
A 189
....

I've moved CA 220/2 with 218 because its localised to the CA series.
This makes it plain that Falcon (and Marvel Man) attempted to join the Defenders in DEF 62-64 while still working for SHIELD. But even in the old sequence it had to happen before Falcon was abducted by the Corporation, and so the SHIELD Super-Agents were still in operation. Either way it looks like Sam was looking for more alternate gigs even before his partnership with Cap is officially dissolved in 231.
The alternative is to make an extra change and move DEF 62-64 later. Actually in #62 Ms Marvel claims to be an Avenger. However in her previous listed app A@ 8 this wasn't yet true. Strictly this should put this story after A 183. But in 183 Falcon says he's already tried joining the Defenders which contradicts that.

I also have to make sure Falcon's sequence now makes sense.

Splitting CA 217 and 218 means Sam spends even more time training the SHIELD Super-Agents, still up to when he disappears before 222.

His apps in M/TU 71 and DEF 62-64 have just been moved forward relatively to before CA 218. But 220/2 is still after 218.

Sometime before CA 222 Falcon and the Super-Agents move to Los Angeles, and the Corporation capture Sam.

Then in CA 230 & Hulk 232 Cap finds Falc and they fight the Corporation.
In CA 231 (1 - 11:5) Falcon resigns as Cap's partner and stays with Jim. But presumably he brings him back to New York.

But in A 183 (7:7 - 8:4) Cap and Falc are both back in NY while the other Avengers see Scarlet Witch off. And Steve is trying to persuade Sam to join the Avengers to fill the government-imposed quota of minority members. This doesn't go down well with Falcon, but he agrees for Steve's sake.
In A 184 Cap and Falc join the team mid-fight with Absorbing Man at the dock. And survey the damage in A 185.

During the gap here Falcon is with Cap and Iron Man and some other Avengers in FF@ 14 and IM 125 (where Tony Stark has to stop being Iron Man who's accused of killing an Ambassador).

CA 231 (11:6 - 17) sees the start of the Grand Director story. Cap also finds Sam Wilson's social worker office unoccupied, except by Peggy Carter who's looking for Sam or Cap. (In this scene's original position Steve goes to the office to look after it while Sam's still away (in LA with Jim). I must admit this doesn't make any sense in the new position.)

In CA 237 (5 - 6) Falcon can't find Cap (who's taken a week off). He goes to see the current Avengers team (with Iron Man still off). Steve Rogers turns up.

Then in Av 186-188 the team with Wonder Man instead of Iron Man help Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch.
And Falcon's apps after that are as before.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:15 am

Now as promised I'll turn to changes in the timeline for Hulk:-

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
current with previously identified changes already included:-
....
IH2 227
IH2 228
IH2 229
IH2 230
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
M/TU@ 2 move to after IH2 229
IH@ 8
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
HSMASHA 2 move to after IH2 230
DEF 119-FB
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB
DEF 69
DEF 70
....
changed to:-
....
IH2 227
IH2 228
IH2 229
M/TU@ 2 moved from before IH@ 8
IH2 230
HSMASHA 2 moved from after HMAG 18
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
IH@ 8
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
DEF 119-FB
ALIAS 25-FB
ALIAS 26-FB
DEF 69
DEF 70
....


This seemingly innocuous pair of moves hides a big shift.

The 1st move puts M/TU@ 2 back where I wanted to put it earlier. But this time that issue is actually staying in place and the Hulk issues are moving down past it to join the moved Cap issues. Thus its companion M/TU 90 stays in place too, and so doesn't develop a clash.

Moving HSMASHA 2 just implements the connection between that and the CA 228-230 & IH2 230-232 block.

This works out OK in my appearances spreadsheet because Hulk issues don't tend to involve many characters from outside his own continuity. (In fact HC 1-28 has *no* characters apart from Hulk himself from any other series, so the whole lot could be placed anywhere you can make a gap. Indeed it is made up of several shorter arcs each of which has its own self-contained set of extras. So the series could be split up and scattered. Being an Englander I have these comics!)

But the problem I have is similar to 1 I resolved earlier in this thread. HSMASHA 2 is linked to A 181-182, and for many Avengery chars the HSMASHA 2/CA block is immediately followed by the ALIAS 25&26-FB set, and then A 183-185. But that FB pair is also deliberately placed between DEF 119-FB and DEF 69, as I explained earlier. This means a whole load of Hulky stuff between the HSMASHA 2/CA block and the ALIAS FBs has now been shoehorned in between A 182 and A 183, where there is supposed to be a gap but only of a few days - make it a week say.

I *want* to move the ALIAS FBs lower down the Avengers timelines to make room but I can't.

Placement of the ALIAS FBs is heavily discussed in the 'X-Men Annual #3, versus Avengers #180-183' thread. The important point is that a later FB in ALIAS 26 involves the non-Dark Phoenix before the X 125-137 sequence. Which itself is before A 186 in the chronologies of Beast and Jarvis (and is probably nailed in place there for many other less direct reasons).

But Scarlet Witch is intimately involved in the earlier ALIAS FBs. She goes to Europe in A 183 and doesn't return until the conclusion of A 186-188. So the ALIAS apps to be before A 183.



I still don't want to leave such a large number of Hulk apps in the short gap between A 182 and A 183. I could suggest moving the HC and HMAG stuff somewhere else. As I said the HC bits can be dispersed. (Indeed when I cobbled together my own early history some decades ago I spread the HC arcs between IH2 211 and 2238.) And when the HMAG issues were discussed in 'H2 243 and DEF 67-68' thread it seemed to be clearer which HMAG issues belonged together than where they should go in Hulk's overall continuity.

However this would still leave way too many IH2 issues in the gap for my liking.



My alternative proposal is to break the carefully arranged link between DEF 119-FB, the ALIAS FBs and DEF 69. Ie move DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS FBs to before the HSMASHA/CA/IH2 block and suppose that Hulk just wandered away from the Defenders again in between. This allows the Hulk stuff that follows the block to spread more evenly between that block and A@ 9 and A 189 which are linked to Hulk's apps in DEF 76-81. DEF 69 can stay where it is in my spreadsheet, which means that Dr Strange apps can remain unaffected (apart from DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS FBs) including his critically placed visit to X 135.

I haven't moved DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS FBs far before HSMASHA 2 to minimise the liklihood of clashes for side chars. I've placed the ALIAS FBs just before GSA2 1/2 which share many of their Avengers. This is within the time between A 177 and A 181 during which almost any combination of Avengers seems to pop up in various comics.

We do still have quite a lot of Hulk apps between the HSMASHA 2 block and DEF 69. But they don't cause any obvious continuity problems. (Although I might find some when I investigate the side characters.) Figuring out whether there's enough time to fit everything in would require some sort of calendar. If that revealed a problem we could always then consider moving some HC or HMAG issues about.


This changes the changes in this post to:-

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
current with previously identified changes already included:-
....
IH2 227
IH2 228
IH2 229
IH2 230
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
M/TU@ 2 move to after IH2 229
IH@ 8
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
HSMASHA 2 move to after IH2 230
DEF 119-FB }
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26-FB } before IH2 230
DEF 69
DEF 70
....
changed to:-
....
IH2 227
IH2 228
IH2 229
M/TU@ 2 moved from before IH@ 8
DEF 119-FB }
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26-FB } before DEF 69
IH2 230
HSMASHA 2 moved from after HMAG 18
SENSH 29
IH2 231
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
IH2 233
IH2 234
IH2 235
IH2 236
IH2 237
IH2 238 (1 - 8)
IH@ 8
HC 1
....
HC 28
IH2 238 (9 - 17)
IH2 239
IH2 240
IH2 241
IH2 242
IH2 243
HMAG 15
HMAG 15/3 ~ HMAG 15/2
HMAG 16
HMAG 17-FB
HMAG 17
HMAG 18
DEF 69
DEF 70
....


Like Hulk, Dr Strange is sharing time between the Defenders, his own mag and other apps. But this shift of DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS FBs doesn't move far enough to affect his chronology. They still can lie between DEF 53/2-BTS and DS2 38. And Cap and Iron Man's app in DS2 35 haven't been affected by anything I've done in this thread.

Falcon isn't in the ALIAS FBs but Cap is. So his timeline has to have an extra tweak:-

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN "GRANT" ROGERS
current:-
....
IM 115
ASM 187
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:1)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
CA 228
CA 229 (1 - 4)
HSMASHA 2
CA 229 (5 - 17)
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
CA 231 (1 - 11:5)
ALIAS 25-FB } move to
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS } before GSA2 1/2
A 183
A 184
....
changed to:-
....
IM 115
ASM 187
ALIAS 25-FB } moved from
ALIAS 26-FB-BTS } before A 183
GSA2 1/2
BW 1-FB
[CHAOS:DA 3 (22:1)-FB-FB]
A 181
A 182
BP 14
BP 15
CA 228
CA 229 (1 - 4)
HSMASHA 2
CA 229 (5 - 17)
CA 230 (1 - 14:3)
Q 2-FB
CA 230 (14:4 - 17)
IH2 232
CA 231 (1 - 11:5)
A 183
A 184
....

As mentioned above the ALIAS FBs are placed before GSA2 1/2.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:04 am

robfj wrote: I still don't want to leave such a large number of Hulk apps in the short gap between A 182 and A 183. I could suggest moving the HC and HMAG stuff somewhere else. As I said the HC bits can be dispersed. (Indeed when I cobbled together my own early history some decades ago I spread the HC arcs between IH2 211 and 2238.) And when the HMAG issues were discussed in 'H2 243 and DEF 67-68' thread it seemed to be clearer which HMAG issues belonged together than where they should go in Hulk's overall continuity.

However this would still leave way too many IH2 issues in the gap for my liking.
But, see, I don't want to move something, based on someone's "liking." If I do that, then someone else comes along next week, who "likes" it a different way. If you can convince us that current listings CAN'T work, then propose a solution, we'll listen. But we won't change listings, based on preference.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:51 am

Fnord has a big discussion of the chronology regarding Hulk Smash Avengers 2 here:
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronoco ... rs_2.shtml

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:10 pm

Russ Chappell wrote:But, see, I don't want to move something, based on someone's "liking." If I do that, then someone else comes along next week, who "likes" it a different way. If you can convince us that current listings CAN'T work, then propose a solution, we'll listen. But we won't change listings, based on preference.
He said earlier the current listings can't work because of the existence of Hulk Smash Avengers #2. The current placement looked at Avengers (and related) books, but not (closely) Hulk books. Kind of like how MARVELS made us rearrange some early issues of FF and Avengers back in the day (am I remembering that right? I think so…).

Some moves (in theory) have to be made to get all the references in Hulk Smash Avengers #2 to line up (they currently don't; they ignore some Hulk stuff). Since moves have to be made (to line the Hulk book up with the Avengers and related books, so that Hulk Smash Avengers #2 can be "properly" slotted in), he's looking at what would be involved in that.

As he mentioned above, Roger Stern either wrote or edited all of these books (wrote Hulk Smash Avengers, edited Captain America (at the time), wrote/edited Hulk (at the time) and edited Avengers (at the time)). If anyone knows what references to make to place Hulk Smash Avengers #2 in this time frame, it would be Roger Stern, I'd imagine.

When he speaks of his "liking," he's talking about how to address the passage of time of where/how the listings end up after these moves, not that he doesn't "like" the current listings.
robfj wrote:I haven't moved DEF 119-FB and the ALIAS FBs far before HSMASHA 2 to minimise the liklihood of clashes for side chars. I've placed the ALIAS FBs just before GSA2 1/2 which share many of their Avengers. This is within the time between A 177 and A 181 during which almost any combination of Avengers seems to pop up in various comics.
I'd have to double check, but I *think* the ALIAS placements hinge around Ms. Marvel's Avengers membership (among other things), maybe? I'm tied up with other things at the moment, but that's something to keep in mind (what issue did she join (as opposed to just hanging around with them), and is it mentioned in the ALIAS issues?), at least.
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:10 pm

Col_Fury wrote:

As he mentioned above, Roger Stern either wrote or edited all of these books (wrote Hulk Smash Avengers, edited Captain America (at the time), wrote/edited Hulk (at the time) and edited Avengers (at the time)). If anyone knows what references to make to place Hulk Smash Avengers #2 in this time frame, it would be Roger Stern, I'd imagine.
Joe Casey wrote Hulk Smash Avengers 2, n0t Roger Stern
Col_Fury wrote: I'd have to double check, but I *think* the ALIAS placements hinge around Ms. Marvel's Avengers membership (among other things), maybe? I'm tied up with other things at the moment, but that's something to keep in mind (what issue did she join (as opposed to just hanging around with them), and is it mentioned in the ALIAS issues?), at least.
Carol is WITH the Avengers in the Alias flashbacks but it's not clear if she's actually a member. What is clear is that Carol is in her black costume in the Alias issues, so it has to take place after Ms. Marvel 20. And the Alias flashbacks also have to take place after Marvel Team-Up 76-77, since in Marvel Team-Up 76 Carol says the none of the Avengers except the Wasp have seen her in her new costume.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Russ Chappell » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:48 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
Russ Chappell wrote:But, see, I don't want to move something, based on someone's "liking." If I do that, then someone else comes along next week, who "likes" it a different way. If you can convince us that current listings CAN'T work, then propose a solution, we'll listen. But we won't change listings, based on preference.
He said earlier the current listings can't work because of the existence of Hulk Smash Avengers #2. The current placement looked at Avengers (and related) books, but not (closely) Hulk books. Kind of like how MARVELS made us rearrange some early issues of FF and Avengers back in the day (am I remembering that right? I think so…).

Some moves (in theory) have to be made to get all the references in Hulk Smash Avengers #2 to line up (they currently don't; they ignore some Hulk stuff). Since moves have to be made (to line the Hulk book up with the Avengers and related books, so that Hulk Smash Avengers #2 can be "properly" slotted in), he's looking at what would be involved in that.
I understand that. I haven't said anything about his placement of Hulk Smash Avengers #2, or his reasoning.
Col_Fury wrote:When he speaks of his "liking," he's talking about how to address the passage of time of where/how the listings end up after these moves, not that he doesn't "like" the current listings.
robfj's most recent proposed placement has HC 1-28 between pages of IH2 238, as do the current listings.

When robfj says this:
robfj wrote:I still don't want to leave such a large number of Hulk apps in the short gap between A 182 and A 183. I could suggest moving the HC and HMAG stuff somewhere else. As I said the HC bits can be dispersed. (Indeed when I cobbled together my own early history some decades ago I spread the HC arcs between IH2 211 and 2238.)

However this would still leave way too many IH2 issues in the gap for my liking.
I'm referring to his (potential) suggestion that HC 1-28 be moved because of what he likes. It sounds like he doesn't like the current placement.

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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:11 pm

Yep, that's what I get for multitasking. :lol:

Carry on, folks! :thumbsup:
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Re: Hulk Smash Avengers #2

Post by robfj » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:33 pm

Wow! I stirred something up here.

I will apologise to start with about my choice of the word 'liking'. As Col_Fury suggests I only meant to say that it seemed to me that there were a lot of issues to fit into a gap between A 182 and 183 that was supposed to be not very large. But as Russ Chappell noted I chose another solution to the problem anyway, not the one it sounded like I 'liked'.

I don't have a personal preference as to where the HC issues go. It *is* true that they contribute to a large lump of Hulk issues where in the original placement nowhere near as much is happening in other titles. I think my 1st stab at moving Hulk issues to get the required things next to HSMASHA 2 made things even worse. And my final solution of moving the ALIAS FBs only relieved the pressure a bit. But I don't have any suggestions for a better place for the HC set.

However I will stand by most of my comments. In particular, at the risk of reinforcing the idea that I *do* prefer something different for HC, it is definitely true that the Hulk Comic arcs were disconnected and sometimes only 1 issue long. So I left it as a useful idea if anybody tried to create a calendar for this era, that the HC stories *could* be split up if it turned out to be awkward having them taking up time all in 1 place.



Col_Fury wonders if Ms Marvel was an Avenger at the time of my new placement for the the ALIAS flashbacks. Michael comments that the FBs don't actually say she's a member. (And in answer to his question the FBs are still well after A@ 8 and so also after MSM 20 and M/TU 76-77.) I would add that she was with them in the Mansion and in action in A@ 8 before she officially became an Avenger in A 183.

I would also add that in DEF 62-63 (just after A@ 8 in the existing chronology and in my amended 1) she *says* she's an Avenger. This may indicate that Carol has got the wrong end of the stick and thinks you get to be an Avenger just by going on adventures with them. (Something that an outsider might be forgiven for assuming. Although they do have formal inductions, they usually seem to create the team out of whoever's around and willing.) It may also mean that they *had* asked her to join, but then Gyrich didn't include her in the final cut in A 181.



Michael, I followed your link to SuperMegaMonkey and discovered that he'd come to basically the same conclusion as me, apart from some differences in organising the innards of the Cap/Hulk/Smash block. And some pithy comments on why the continuity implant doesn't make quite as much sense as Joe Casey hoped. But it sounds like in the previous version of his chronology he didn't have to move as many things as far as I have done.
Last edited by robfj on Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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