TRUTH & CA 247-FB

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TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:24 am

I can’t seem to find the various Truth: Red, White, & Black postings on the boards,(they’ve probably fallen into the Archives or something… or I may have just forgot to post them in the first place) so I’ll just post everything here for a bit of clean-up.

Some things have already made it into the listings; Hitler & Goebbels in issue 6, and Captain America’s WWII appearances in issues 4 & 6. Here’s the rest:

BRADLEY, FAITH
*TRUTH 1
*TRUTH 2-FB (photo)
*TRUTH 3
*TRUTH 4
*TRUTH 7 (1-11)
*TRUTH 5
*TRUTH 7 (12-22)

CREW 5
CREW 7

BRADLEY, ISAIAH
*TRUTH 1
*TRUTH 2
*TRUTH 3
*TRUTH 4
*TRUTH 5
*TRUTH 6-FB
*TRUTH 7

CREW 5

PATRIOT III/ELIJAH BRADLEY
*TRUTH 7


PRICE, COL. WALKER
*TRUTH 2
*TRUTH 3
*TRUTH 4
*TRUTH 7


REINSTEIN II, PROFESSOR
TRUTH 2
TRUTH 3
TRUTH 6-FB
(the Professor Reinstein seen here is not the original, hence the 'II')

*

And then there’s the ‘current day’ portion, where Cap learns of the black Captain America. It takes place after he’s received his government backpay ‘for being frozen’, he mentions it as if it’s relatively recent, so around Avengers #4.(thanks to Avengers Classic 4/2)

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS

FF 25
FF 26
*TRUTH 6
*TRUTH 7 (1-11)
*TRUTH 5
*TRUTH 7 (12-22)

A 5 (1-15)
A: EMH 2 (16-18)

(Current day confusion:
Issue 6 opens with Cap finding out about Isaiah Bradley, issue 7 continues from there and leads into issue 5's last page,(where Cap & Faith are having a conversation) then picks up from there at page 12 and finishes up. The FlashBacks in isue 6 fill us in on what happened to Isaiah(mostly) and Reinstein II)

*

There’s a FlashBack in Captain America #247(10:2-10:6) that’s not currently in the Project. On 24 December, 1941, Captain America reports to General Phillips. Since he’s about to go overseas with the Invaders, Cap is going to undergo false memory implants in case he’s captured by the enemy. It’s re-established here that Cap has no middle name, he didn’t have a brother Mike who died at Pearl Harbor, he didn’t grow up in Maryland, etc.

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVEN ROGERS

INV 29-FB
GSINV 1
*CA 247-FB (12/24/1941)
INV 1
INV 2


PHILLIPS, GEN. RICHARD CHESTER
M/SH3 3-FB
CA 109 (1-9)-FB
CA 176 (3:3)-FB
CA 109 (10-12)-FB
CA 255 (4:1-4:2)-FB
CA 109 (13)-FB
CA 255 (4:4)-FB
CA 109 (14:1)-FB
CA 255 (4:5-4:6)-FB
CA 109 (14:2)-FB
CA 255 (5:1)-FB
CA5 25-FB
CA ’00-FB
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (1-3:1)
TOS 63/2 (1-2:3)
GSINV 1 (5:5)-FB
TOS 63/2 (2:4)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:2-3:3)
TOS 63/2 (2:5)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:4-3:5)
TOS 63/2 (2:6-3:1)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:6-3:7)
TOS 63/2 (3:2)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:8-4:1)
TOS 63/2 (3:2)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (4:2)
TOS 63/2 (3:4)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (4:3-8)
TOS 63/2 (5:3-10)
CA 255 (8:1-8:4)-FB
CA: SL2 6/3-BTS
CA: SL2 7
CA 255 (9:1-9:2)-FB
CA5 2-FB
CA 255 (9:3-9:5)-FB
CA5 12-FB
*CA 247-FB
CA: SL2 2-FB
CA: SL2 3
CA: SL2 4

And some more clean-up:

REINSTEIN, PROFESSOR/ABRAHAM ERSKINE
Z: BB 4
M/SH3 3-FB
CA 109 (1-12)-FB
CA 255 (4:1-4:2)-FB
CA 109 (13)-FB
CA 255 (4:4)-FB
CA 109 (14:1)-FB
CA 255 (4:5-4:6)-FB
CA 109 (14:2)-FB
CA 255 (5:1)-FB
CA5 25-FB
CA ’00-FB
CA 215 (5:3)-FB
TOS 63/2 (1-3:6)
CA 255 (5:3-5:5)-FB
{CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1} (1-4:7)
CA 255 (5:6)-FB
TOS 63/2 (4:1-4:2)
CA 109 (14:3-15:4)-FB
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (5:1-5:3)
TOS 63/2 (4:3-4:4)
CA 109 (15:5-16:2)-FB
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (5:4-6:7)
TOS 63/2 (4:5)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (6:1)
A: TI@ 1/4-FB
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (6:2)
TOS 63/2 (5:1-5:2)
CA 109 (16:3-16:4)-FB

DR. ANDERSON/’ARTHUR J. GROVER’
M/SH3 3-FB
GSINV 1 (5:5)-FB
TOS 63/2 (2:4)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:2-3:3)
TOS 63/2 (2:5)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:4-3:5)
TOS 63/2 (2:6-3:1)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:6-3:7)
TOS 63/2 (3:2)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (3:8-4:1)
TOS 63/2 (3:2)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (4:2)
TOS 63/2 (3:4)
CAPTAIN AMERICA COMICS 1 (4:3-8)
TOS 63/2 (5:3-10)
GSINV 1-FB (11:6-18:2)
GSINV 1

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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Somebody » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:08 am

Col_Fury wrote:And then there’s the ‘current day’ portion, where Cap learns of the black Captain America. It takes place after he’s received his government backpay ‘for being frozen’, he mentions it as if it’s relatively recent, so around Avengers #4.(thanks to Avengers Classic 4/2)
Ah. This.

He originally (in publication terms) got his backpay during the Mark Greunwald run (and used it to set up his "hotline", IIRC).

He then got it again for the Robert Morales run on Cap v4, published shortly after Truth by the same writer. (Morales was unaware of it happening in the Greunwald run, and assumed he'd never got it).

And now you say one of the Avengers Classic backups did it too?!

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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:11 am

Somebody wrote:And now you say one of the Avengers Classic backups did it too?!
Yup. It's handed to him by Gabe Jones after he's verified that he's actually Cap. Gabe also says there will be more checks in the future...

And because I know he'll bring it up again, I'll beat him to the punch:
Enda80 wrote:By the way, did anyone note the continuity problem with one of those Avengers Classic back-ups? One of them had Cap receiving his military backpay just after Avengers I#4, when he did not get it until the 1980's published stories under Stern, and the Super-Soldier Serum was found in his blood after a blood test, which goes against Captain America I#155, which states the serum is untraceable. That was how Steve Rogers of the 1950's had leverage on the US government.
They also checked his dental records, fingerprints, and ran an RNA test. As for the Super Soldier Serum, maybe the fact that it was untraceable in Cap's system proved that it was him? Meaning because they couldn't find it meant he didn't have a knock-off Super Soldier Serum? *shrug*

The most important test, though, was that Cap recognized Gabe.
Captain America wrote:Of COURSE I know you. We fought in the war together... You were a Howling Commando.
:)
-Daron Jensen

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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:43 am

Col_Fury wrote:
And then there’s the ‘current day’ portion, where Cap learns of the black Captain America. It takes place after he’s received his government backpay ‘for being frozen’, he mentions it as if it’s relatively recent, so around Avengers #4.(thanks to Avengers Classic 4/2)
Somebody wrote:
He originally (in publication terms) got his backpay during the Mark Greunwald run (and used it to set up his "hotline", IIRC). He then got it again for the Robert Morales run on Cap v4, published shortly after Truth by the same writer. (Morales was unaware of it happening in the Greunwald run, and assumed he'd never got it).
So after which receipt of backpay do we place
*TRUTH 6
*TRUTH 7 (1-11)
*TRUTH 5
*TRUTH 7 (12-22)?

I'm inclined to go with the Morales CA4 instance given we're dealing with the same writer and publication shortly after TRUTH.
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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:41 pm

I just flipped through CA4 21-28, and the same FBI agent(Damian Spinrad) appears in TRUTH 6 & CA4 21, so there's that.

Maybe I'm missing it, but did Cap recieve his backpay on panel during the Morales run? If so, what issue? I'm not seeing it in issues 21-28, but by issue 27 Cap mentions that he's already met Isaiah Bradley, so it has to happen before that. Or is it that Morales gave Cap his backpay in TRUTH and he just intended for it to be concurrent with then-published books?

Since we already know what he did with his backpay in the Greunwald run, I wouldn't want to place TRUTH there. If we wanted to place this around A 4, the spot's above. If we wanted to place this alongside current books, it could go between CA4 16 & CA4 21,(CA4 17-20 was an alternate-world story) if we can't find the issue were he got it in CA4 21-28. If we place it close to the Morales run, TRUTH would have to go after CREW 5 for the Bradleys.

Thoughts?
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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:07 pm

I still couldn't find it in CA4 21-28, so I went looking around for interviews and found this:
Robert Morales wrote:“I established at the end of Truth that Captain America has a lot of money from his back pay and hazard pay which was compounded over the years he was MIA,” Morales said. “So, I’m interested in is what kind of things he does with his money. He’s not a guy who needs to buy everything out of the Sharper Image catalog, but he does use his money wisely and invests so he’s not dependant on a job or an Avengers stipend. I was always bothered by the idea that he was dependant upon Tony Stark or had to get a job like when he was a comic book artist.
So there it is. Morales intended to set it up in TRUTH and then explore it in his CA4 run. Of course, he didn't actually GET it in TRUTH, Cap mentions that he got it recently.

So we see Cap get his backpay on-panel in Avengers Classic 4/2, around the time of Avengers 4. We don't see what he did with it.

We see Cap get more backpay on-panel during the Greunwald run, and we see what he did with it.

Cap mentions that he got his backpay recently in TRUTH 7, and he mentions what he did with it.(he bought stock in Price's company to get him fired) I didn't see any follow up on it in CA4 21-28.

I suppose we could stick TRUTH where Morales intended, but given that there was no apparent follow up on it, and that it would be a third time he recieved it, I'm inclined to put it around Avengers 4 to minimize backpayments.

Speaking of looking around, I found a couple of mentions that Reinsteins II's real name is "Dr. Wilfred Nagel", and that his code name Reinstein had a first name of Joseph. Was this revealed in the trade for TRUTH or in a HandBook? Or did Wikipedia make it up?

Until that bit is verified I think we should keep him as:

REINSTEIN II, PROFESSOR
TRUTH 2
TRUTH 3
TRUTH 6-FB

If it is verified:

REINSTEIN II, PROFESSOR JOSEPH/DR. WILFRED NAGEL
TRUTH 2
TRUTH 3
TRUTH 6-FB

And in any case:

SPINRAD, DAMIAN
TRUTH 6
CA4 21
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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by cweed4 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:42 pm

The suggested listing for Professor Reinstein (A. Erskine) does not include a listing from Truth. Does this imply that the Reinstein which is assassinated in issue 6 is Reinstein II? That would suggest the press conference depicted is the second time Cap fails to prevent a Nazi saboteur. That same issue also confirms the first name alias of Josef for the slain doc. Also, Reinstein is referred to as "Professor" in both CAC 1 & Cap 250 while the title "Doctor" is used exclusively in Truth. That's probably not distinctive enough to avoid confusion but I don't have any idea where the Wilfred Nagel identity was established.

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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by Michael » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:32 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
Enda80 wrote:By the way, did anyone note the continuity problem with one of those Avengers Classic back-ups? One of them had Cap receiving his military backpay just after Avengers I#4, when he did not get it until the 1980's published stories under Stern, and the Super-Soldier Serum was found in his blood after a blood test, which goes against Captain America I#155, which states the serum is untraceable. That was how Steve Rogers of the 1950's had leverage on the US government.
They also checked his dental records, fingerprints, and ran an RNA test. As for the Super Soldier Serum, maybe the fact that it was untraceable in Cap's system proved that it was him? Meaning because they couldn't find it meant he didn't have a knock-off Super Soldier Serum? *shrug*

The most important test, though, was that Cap recognized Gabe.
Captain America wrote:Of COURSE I know you. We fought in the war together... You were a Howling Commando.
:)
Keep in mind that Cap thought he lost the Super-Soldier Serum in Streets of Poison, and later when Kincaid tested him he found out Cap still had the Serum. That doesn't make sense if the serum is undetectable. I think that the simplest explanation is that Hank/Reed/Tony invented a device to detect the "undetectable" serum and shared it with SHIELD and the Avengers.

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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by loki » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:25 pm

cweed4 wrote:The suggested listing for Professor Reinstein (A. Erskine) does not include a listing from Truth. Does this imply that the Reinstein which is assassinated in issue 6 is Reinstein II? That would suggest the press conference depicted is the second time Cap fails to prevent a Nazi saboteur. That same issue also confirms the first name alias of Josef for the slain doc. Also, Reinstein is referred to as "Professor" in both CAC 1 & Cap 250 while the title "Doctor" is used exclusively in Truth. That's probably not distinctive enough to avoid confusion but I don't have any idea where the Wilfred Nagel identity was established.
Nagel's name was revealed in the Atlas. It covers The Truth's Reinstein, specifically distinguishing him from Erskine. Erskine is dead before the start of The Truth #2, and does not appear in that series - Reinstein in The Truth was exclusively Nagel.

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Re: TRUTH & CA 247-FB

Post by cweed4 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:24 pm

Cap wasn't very good in those early days I guess. What is this Atlas? Does it mention the original Reinstein's first name?

So, do the entries go down as-
REINSTEIN, PROFESSOR/ ABRAHAM ERSKINE &
REINSTEIN, DOCTOR JOSEF/ DR. WILFRED NAGEL

or-
ERSKINE, ABRAHAM/ "PROFESSOR REINSTEIN" &
NAGEL, DR. WILFRED/ "DOCTOR JOSEF REINSTEIN"

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