Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

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Nathan P. Mahney
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Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Nathan P. Mahney » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:57 pm

I just got done with this yesterday. There is some interesting Dark Reign related stuff (which makes me a little more confident that Bendis isn't going to hi-jack Emma Frost) but the flashback has some major continuity issues.

Basically there's a Hellfire Club meeting where Sebastian Shaw tries to get Namor to join up as the White King. It's set shortly after Shaw's takeover of the Inner Circle, and there are two characters present that are problematic.

The first is Norman Osborn. Isn't he presumed dead at this point, and in hiding in Europe? I guess it could be set before Amazing Spider-Man #122, but as I understand it Shaw doesn't lead the Hellfire Club until after Uncanny X-Men #100. I guess I can buy that Norman is back in the US for a brief visit, but it doesn't really fit well with his history.

The second, and more problematic, is Selene. She's present here as Black Queen, which is impossible in the time-frame given. It explicitly says that the flashbacks are before Emma Frost's battle with Phoenix in Uncanny X-men #131, but Selene doesn't join the Hellfire Club until somewhere around #184.

So yeah, it's all kinds of screwed up. If they had used Sage/Tessa instead of Selene, it could have worked, but I'm at a loss here. Any ideas on how to make this fit?
- Nathan P. Mahney -

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:14 am

Nathan P. Mahney wrote:I just got done with this yesterday. There is some interesting Dark Reign related stuff (which makes me a little more confident that Bendis isn't going to hi-jack Emma Frost) but the flashback has some major continuity issues.

Basically there's a Hellfire Club meeting where Sebastian Shaw tries to get Namor to join up as the White King. It's set shortly after Shaw's takeover of the Inner Circle, and there are two characters present that are problematic.
First lets take a look at Shaw's appearances prior to "X-Men" vol. 1 #131.

1)According to "Classic X-Men" #6 (February, 1987), Sebastian was still a new member of the Inner Circle during "X-Men vol. 1 #98 (April, 1976). He and Tessa were checking the progress of the Sentinels created by Steven Lang, planning to use them against the X-Men. Unaware that White King/Edward "Ned" Buckman was planning to use them against Shaw and his mutant friends.

2) Shaw is behind-the scenes in #98-99 (April-June, 1976). In "Classic X-Men" #7 (March, 1987), Lang reports to the Inner Circle that the X-Men are perfect subject for his experiments in isolating their genetic X-Factor and reproducing it. Shaw voices concern about only Banshee, Marvel Girl and Wolverine having been captured, (meaning that Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X and Storm are unaccounted for), but Buckman shuts him up. He reminds Shaw that he is only a probationary member. Shaw thinks that they will reproduce the X-Factor to create an army of super powered operatives. Buckman thinks that Lang will eliminate the mutant race.

3) In the second story of #7, the Hellfire Club organizes its annual gala, taking place between Christmas and New Year's Eve. Shaw attends the gala with his lover Lourdes Chantel. Chantel voices her suspicion of Buckman and his motivation. Buckman introduces them to White Queen/Paris Seville. He thanks Shaw for financing Project Armageddon. Chantel is still suspicious but Shaw has no idea is his friend or pretending to be one. He asks Tessa to look for an answer.

Shaw establishes mental contact with Emma Frost who is in a beach house near East Hampton. She is tending to Michael Rossi, the United States Airforce special operative which Lang attempted to kill in "X-Men" #96 (December, 1975). He is barely alive but his mind indicates that Project Armageddon is about eliminating mutants, not reproducing them. Shaw realizes Buckman was simply using him. Frost is then located and attacked by a Sentinel. Harold "Harry" Leland is by her side.

Shaw has Chantel teleport him, herself and Tessa to the beach house. Shaw starts to fight the Sentinel but is soon at a disadvantage. An exhausted Chantel tries to help him and is killed by the Sentinel. Leland is shocked into action and crashes the robot to the floor. Shaw attacks its most vulnerable spot, its head and finishes the battle.

At midnight, Buckman and Seville oversee a meeting of the Inner Circle, minus Shaw. Buckman draws a gun and kills Seville and various unnamed others. He is under mind control by Frost. Shaw break's Buckman's neck. With the Inner Circle dead, Shaw intends to form a new Inner Circle which will make sure the mutants will no longer be the victims. This bloody coup is supposed to be roughly concurrent with "X-Men" vol. 1 #100 (August, 1976).

4) In #110 (April, 1978), housekeeper Moira Kinross Mac Taggert expects a man from the telephone company to visit the Xavier mansion since the phones have not be working. The repairman who arrives is Warhawk, an assassin. He drugs her with a drug provided by his "master". He notes his "master" has a lot of questions concerning Xavier and his school, including why would a worlf-known expert in genetics and biophysics plays at being a housekeeper. His "master" contacts him telepathically. Said master claims having saved Warhawk for certain death and restored his sanity. In return he demands his services. Failure will result in swift, agonizing and final retribution. When contact ends, Warhawk curses his masters and swears to be free again someday. The master has been retconned to be Shaw using some telepath for communication.

5) In "Marvel Super-Heroes" vol. 3 #11(October, 1992), Shaw has Coelho, an arms merchant, killed in Hong Kong. The merchant was selling armaments to Hellfire Club's Honk Kong, receiving payment but not delivering them. The Weapons were then resold to a new version of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, including Avalanche, Destiny, Mystique and Pyro. Tessa figured what was going on and reported the betrayal to Shaw. All Brotherhood members mentioned were also in Honk Kong, as was Ms. Marvel tailing Mystique.

The events were supposed to closely follow "Ms. Marvel" vol. 1 #22 (February, 1979) and to precede "X-Men" vol. 1 #140 (December, 1980). Ms. Marvel is investigating the murder of Mike Barnett which Mystique was already planning in #22. The events were retconned to add to the hostility between Ms. Marvel and Mystique and reveal the reasons of hinted but unexplained hostility between the Brotherhood and the Hellfire Club in various 1980s appearances. The MCP has placed several Ms. Marvel appearances between "Ms. Marvel" #22 and this issue but it In hardly affects the chronology of any other character.

6) In "X-Men" vol. 1 #129 (January, 1980), Shaw makes his first published appearance. He and other Hellfire Club members listed to anything said within Xavier mansion which has been bugged for some time. Shaw wants to recruit the X-Men to his cause "by hook or by crook" and dismisses the concerns of Mastermind of the X-Men being too dangerous. Frost, Leland and Donald Pierce are also present. The scene is followed by Frost and the X-Men (Colossus, Professor X,Storm and Wolverine) visiting Chicago, separately attempting to recruit Kitty Pryde.

7) In #130 (February, 1980), Shaw issues order concerning the capture of Cyclops, Nightcrawler and Phoenix. Her claims to have built a billion dollar empire by not making the mistake of underestimating opponents. Mastermind doubts this but still promises to recruit Jean Grey for them. Frost reports to him about capturing the X-Men in Chicago but failing to capture Pryde. She resolves to have the latter's parents enroll the girl to her Massachusetts Academy in order to gain ownership of the girl. Mastermind continues to convert Phoenix to their new Black Queen. The free X-Men meet Dazzler before the end of the issue.

There are four years of stories between Shaw's take over and the fight between the Black and the White Queen. The White King position remaining vacant or covered by Pierce. However what position Pierce held is inconsistent. Not actually mentioned in early appearances, mentioned as former White King in "Uncanny X-Men" #245 -252 (June - November, 1989) and mentioned as former White Bishop through the 1990s. May we assume Pierce got the position when Namor refused?

Now lets see where this would fit in Namor's chronology.

*In "Marvel Spotlight" #4 (April, 1976), Namor faces the Symbionic Man, an artificial being, who dies by the end of the issue.
*In "Super-Villain Team-Up" #5-7 (April - August, 1976). Dr. Doom negates the life-preserving effects of Namor's suit. Namor turns to the Fantastic Four, particularly Mr. Fantastic, for assistance. Doom has given him a deadline of 24 hours to reconsider his offer of an alliance. Reed proves useless and the deadline ends with Namor having to join Doom in Latveria. The Four follow his trail and unsurprisingly have to fight against both Doom and Namor. Henry Kissinger turns up to remind them that Latveria is an ally of the United States and they haver no business attacking it. The Four lick their wounds and go, kindly informing the people of the Hydrobase where Namor is. Shroud turns up in Latveria and fights Doom while Namor just watches. Shroud wins and throws Doom to ... his doom and then leaves. Doom is actually saved by Namorita and Tamara Rahn.
*In "Daredevil Annual" #4 (1976), Dr. Doom has send Namor on a mission to find Keith Mallory, the abducted son of Robert Mallory. The senior Mallory was working "a Tidal Power Station to harness the energy of the oceans" and the kidnappers want the plans. So does Doom. Namor goes on a rampage looking for Mallory in New York City, fighting Daredevil in the process. Turns out the Power Station will cause damage to the oceans and Namor doesn't actually want it constructed. Daredevil promises to convince Mallory not to build it. Then Daredevil joins Black Panther in actually saving the boy.
*"Super-Villain Team-Up" #8 (October, 1976) had Dr. Doom held in Hydrobase, put to work to turn the Amphibians to baseline humans. He secretly communicates with Boris about some secret agenda. Meanwhile Namor and the Shroud are busy running away from the Latverians, not pleased about the apparent assassination of their leader. They take refuge in a traveling circus ...which is actually the Circus of Crime in a European tour. During the last performance, the two runaways are quite surprised to meet a Doom imposter. He is actually Prince Rudolfo of Latveria, trying to gain the throne by pretending to be his worst enemy.
*"Super-Villain Team-Up" #9 (December, 1976) had the Avengers (Captain America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Wasp, Yellowjacket) mind-controlled by Attuma. He send them to attack Namor in Hydrobase but instead they find Doom. They start fighting with him and the rest of the Hydrobase inhabitants. Namor and Shroud find out who Rudolfo is. Shroud decides to join him while Namor leaves Latveria. He heads to Hydrobase, contemplating his own death since he needs a serum by Doom to survive. Which a deceased Doom can not provide. The free Avengers (Beast, Whizzer and Wonder Man) gather to fight against Attuma. (The issue has Namorita calling Namor her "big brother" which contradicts her origin).
*In "Avengers" vol. 1 #155-156 (January - February, 1977), the fight in Hydrobase continues. The Avengers are defeated, Doom taking down Captain America and Iron Man, Tamara Rahn knocking out Scarlet Witch with her fists, Namorita capturing the Wasp and various Amphibians taking care of Vision and Yellowjacket. Tamara Rahn wonders if the Vision is one of her people, the Banari who are red-skinned. (The Vision has a red face). Vision recovers and offers an alliance to Doom, an alliance against Attuma. Meanwhile the free Avengers fight Attuma when Namor attacks. He thinks Beast and Wonder Man are Attuma agents and keeps fighting Williams until recognizing the Whizzer as a World War II ally. All four decide to follow Attuma to Atlantis. Doom joins the other Avengers in attacking Atlantis. There the two groups meet and overwhelm Attuma's forces. Doom leaves after the battle is won.
*"Super-Villain Team Up" #10-12 (February - June, 1977), has Red Skull taking over Latveria. Doom is not pleased and joins with Captain America to depose him. Rudolfo and Shroud attempt to do the same. The Red Skull for some reason attacks Atlantis where Namor just resumed the throne. He heads to Latveria to also attempt to depose him. Red Skull shrinks Doom and Rogers to microscopic size, defeats Rudolfo and Shroud and attempt to recruit Namor to his side. Doom promises to help cure Namor's, earning his loyalty again. (Most Atlanteans were in a coma for quite a while). Red Skull teleports to the moon and only Doom and Shroud are willing to follow him there to defeat him. Doom fights and knocks out Red Skull, allowing the latter's lackies to take him away.
*"Marvel Two-In One" #28 (June, 1977), Namor is happy to be free of Doom. He returns home when attacked by the Piranha. He thinks he kills him. He later flies up to greet the jet of the Fantastic Four, transporting Thing and Alicia Reiss Masters to their vacation at the United Kingdom. Then they are attacked again by the Piranha. Thing lands the plane and goes help Namor ... but another Piranha abducts Alicia. The original Piranha had been eaten some time ago by a school of piranhas. According to this issue each was transformed to a Piranha duplicate. The Piranhas overwhelmed Namor and Thing with their sheer numbers and transported them to their underwater arena. Apparently they had taken the sport of capturing people and forcing them to fight for their amusement. Thee winner was allowed to go free while the loser was eaten by the Piranhas. Namor and Thing were forced to fight with Alicia's life as the prize. However their fight wrecked the arena and the attending Piranhas were killed in its collapse.
*"Super-Villain Team-Up" #13 (August, 1977), is a victory issue for Namor. Doom performs as promised and manages to wake the Atlanteans from their coma. The two still have to fight Krang and a sea monster until the end of the issue. Doom leaves in peace, contemplating that Namor derives his power from his people. This finished Nomor's major subplots for a while.
*"Defenders" vol. 1 #52-55 (October, 1977 - January, 1978) has underwater nuclear tests threatening Atlantis. Namor calls the Defenders (Hellcat, Hulk and Nighthawk) to help end the tests. To find out their cause in the Presence who was transforming himself and their former teammate Red Guardian to beings of nuclear energy. The team has to stop the Presence from conquering the world and do it before they die of radiation poisoning. However Red Guardian regained her senses and told him off for trying to kill her friends and the inhuman futility of his plans. Losing the woman he loved, Presence resigned and departed in sadness. As did Red Guardian. The Defenders are not that happy either, left exceptionally ill and having to be treated for radiation poisoning.
*In "Defenders" #56 (February, 1978), Bruce Banner and Soviet scientists work hard to cure Namor, Hellcat and Nighthawk before they die. Banner, Hellcat and Nighthawk are then returned to the United States while Namor returns to Atlantis. Meanwhile Valkyrie chases Lunatik in New York City.
*In "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #194-195 (May - June, 1978), Namor is on the run from the Retrievers of Atlantis. After helping revive his fellow Atlanteans from their coma, they apparently took to seeing his as devine. Disgusted at being asked to heal them with his hands and perform miracles, Namor left Atlantis. He returned to his private business, Imperial Studios in Hollywood, Los Angeles, California. He put his effords in reviving his studio and arranged to hire Susan Storm-Richards as an actress. However the ruling council of Atlantis decided that Namor mast rule... whether he wants to or not. They send the Retrievers, six powerful robots, to fetch their wayward monarch. Namor and Susan fought and defeated the robots. But Namor realized that their message was that his people needed him and decided to return to Atlantis anyway.
*In "Doctor Strange" vol. 2 #31-32 (October - December, 1978). Dr. Strange has to fight Alaric, current user of the mystical sword of Kamuu.Alaric believed he would gain immortality if he manages to kill the Sorcerer Supreme. He knocked down all of Strange's magical defenses and Clea, the last line of defense, before attacking Strange himself. The Eye of Zartra protected him again Strange's spells but at that moment Namor arrived. He was a descendant of Kamuu and Zartra and came to retrieve the artifacts of his ancestors. Alaric was able to wound him but this triggered the Curse of Zartra against anyone who spilled the blood of her descendants. He lost his strength and mystical energy to the point of exhaustion. Dr. Strange exiled him in Dyzakk's Cage and offered the Sword to Namor. Namor decided the Sword and the Eye were too dangerous together, leaving the Eye to Strange. (The Sword has appeared several times since then but the Eye has not appeared once in thirty years).
*In "Iron Man" vol. 1 #120-122 (March-May, 1979), Anthony Edward Stark returns from France to the United States, having discovered SHIELD has been secretly purchasing stock in Stark International in an effort to take over the company. The jet which he boards is taken down by "a flying tank" over the Atlantic Ocean and Iron Man has to save the passengers. Iron Man soon meets United States Special Forces who help the passengers and inform him the tank was thrown by Namor. Apparently Hiram Dobbs, an elderly farmer, has settled on an island used for "radioactive waste disposal". The Special Forces want to get him off the island and Namor thinks he is defending the old man from persecution. Iron Man tries to explains the situation to Namor and ends up fighting for his life against the enraged Atlantean. His armor eventually malfunctions and Namor has to save him from drowning. He takes him to Dobbs' cottage. There Stark finally explains the situation to Namor and the old man. However Dobbs informs him of living here for years and the military only setting foot this same morning. Iron Man realizes he has been duped. James Rhodes and Bethany Cabe meanwhile investigate to find the "military" to be agents of the Roxxon Oil Company in uniform. The island contains the largest deposite of Vibranium outside the grounds of Wakanda. Namor and Iron Man team up to destroy Roxxon forces. Jonas Hale of Roxxon decides to destroy the island before anyone else lays claim to it. Namor has a friendly parting with Iron Man before returning Dobbs to safety.
*In "Defenders" #74 (August, 1979), Dr. Strange visits Atlantis, attempting to convince Namor to join the Defenders against the Unnameable.
*In "Defenders" #78-83 (December, 1979 - May, 1980) the Defenders (Dr. Strange, Hulk and Namor) travel to Tunnelworld, another dimension, having one long campaign against the Unnameable. Naturally this prevents any of them from having encounters on Earth. Aeroika, a native, joins them. The Unnameable is defeted it by locking it within Hulk's brain where it can't heart anybody. (Locking a would-be conqueror of all life within an already unstable mind, sure no cause no trouble).
*"Defenders" #84 (June, 1980), has the group returned to Earth, celebrating their victory in Atlantis. Dr. Strange leaves, trusting Banner in the care of Namor. However Namor learns that Wakanda has been arresting Atlanteans on charges of holding stolen Wakandan technology. Black Panther arrives to settle the matter diplomatically ...and fights Namor. Actually releasing the Hulk to cause damages to Atlantis, almost drowning said Hulk and Wakandan missiles "accidentaly" targeting Atlantis almost destroy it. Black Panther's claims it was all a misunderstanding don't particularly satisfy Namor for obvious reasons.
*"Defenders" #85 (July, 1980) has Black Panther joining the Defenders (Clea, Dr. Strange, Hellcat,Hulk, Nighthawk, Valkyrie) in investigating who was smuggling Wakandan technology. Apparently the Mandrill. Namor only has a brief appearance, delivering Banner to Strange for safekeeping.
*"Fantastic Four" #219 (June, 1980) has Captain Barracuda and his crew assaulting Atlantis and stealing the Horn of Proteus. They use it to summon deep-sea monsters and directing them to assault Manhattan. Namor joins the Fantastic Four in fighting against Barracuda and reclaims control of the Horn.
*"Incredible Hulk" vol. 2 #250 (August, 1980) is mostly a battle of the Hulk against the Silver Surfer. I am not certain what Namor's role in it is.
*"Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #211 (December, 1980) has Namor fighting Spider-Man in New York City. If I remember correctly Namor seeks some old enemies in New York, Spidey attacks the "villain" to prevent him from launching another Atlantean invasion. Apparently Parker is convinced that everytime Namor appears, am innvasion is on its way.

By this time already too late for Namor appearances to precede "X-Men" vol. 1 #131.
Nathan P. Mahney wrote:The first is Norman Osborn. Isn't he presumed dead at this point, and in hiding in Europe? I guess it could be set before Amazing Spider-Man #122, but as I understand it Shaw doesn't lead the Hellfire Club until after Uncanny X-Men #100. I guess I can buy that Norman is back in the US for a brief visit, but it doesn't really fit well with his history.
His "death" was depicted in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #122 (July, 1973). His corpse in #123 (August, 1973). The events can not happen after Shaw takes over the Inner Circle. For the Retconned history of Norman during his European years see the following summary:

"Osborn regenerated from the near-fatal injuries via the "Goblin serum" in his blood and secretly fled to Europe. There, he built a vast communications network to monitor his affairs in America while the world believed him dead. Through this network, he discovered and joined the Cabal of Scrier. Finding the group near extinction, Osborn quickly rose up the ranks, until violently usurping the position of leadership from the former Scrier Prime. Osborn believed he could utilize the Cabal to become the European equivalent of the Kingpin of crime. He reshaped the Cabal - honing the fighting skills of the Scriers, updating their espionage techniques, and supplying sophisticated armaments. The Cabal forged new alliances with other nefarious organizations like A.I.M., Hydra, and the Hand.

Osborn sent a Scrier, Samuel Fox, to Empire State University professor Warren Miles for assistance with his cloning experiments upon Gwen Stacy (mother of Osborn's twin children) and Peter Parker. Using information and technology garnered from the European underground scientific community, Scrier Fox helped Warren succeed in creating clones of Stacy and Parker after several failures including the disfigured clone of Parker, Kaine. As the villainous Jackal, Warren sought to punish Parker for the death of Gwen, his beloved student. After Parker and his clone battled in Shea Stadium, the Jackal planned to convince the clone that he was the original genetic progenitor. However, Fox was ordered to turn against Warren, as the professor's plans against Parker conflicted with Osborn's slower timetable. Fox blackmailed Warren's assistant, Seward Trainer, to rig the Jackal's equipment to reverse the results of clone identification. Thus Parker's clone became the wanderer Ben Reilly while the Jackal believed he had robbed Spider-Man of his identity. Fox commanded Trainer to monitor the clone's whereabouts, as Osborn planned to use Reilly as a key player in his machinations. Trainer grew to become a mentor and friend to Reilly."

If A.I.M, Hydra and the Hand had contact with him, why not the Hellfire Club. But someone should compare it to other flashbacks from this period.
Nathan P. Mahney wrote:The second, and more problematic, is Selene. She's present here as Black Queen, which is impossible in the time-frame given. It explicitly says that the flashbacks are before Emma Frost's battle with Phoenix in Uncanny X-men #131, but Selene doesn't join the Hellfire Club until somewhere around #184.
Even worse. While Selene is supposed to be active since the Hyborian Era, she supposedly passed the last few centuries in Nova Roma, isolated in the Brazilian rainforest. She had no contact with the outside world until "New Mutants" vol. 1 #9 (November, 1983). She arrives in New York City in "Uncanny X-Men" #183 (July, 1984).She first heard of the Hellfire Club in "New Mutants" #22 (December, 1984). She is introduced to Shaw in #189 (January, 1985). The party to celebrate her status as a probationary member and candidate for the vacant Black Queen position was in "New Mutants" #23 (January, 1985).

Having her interacting with Shaw before "X-Men" vol. 1 #131 would mess badly with most of her early appearances. Is she actually identified by name, title or just by her appearance. Just to make sure this isn't supposed to be someone else.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by JD » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:27 pm

Selene is explicitely named, by Shaw, including in the scene with Osborn. Uh oh...

On the other hand, it's explicitely stated (and shown on panel) that Selene messed with Emma's mind to remove the memories of the flashback's events. Maybe Emma's misremembering things ?

My theory :
- The flashback happened (since Namor also remembers it), but not when Emma remembers it. It should take place much later, after Selene becomes Black Queen. The contradicting elements are only from Emma's perspective (why would Namor care or know about the flashback's location as compared to the Dark Phoenix Saga ?). Since Osborn appears while in hiding anyway, his appearance is not binding.
- Emma's rememberance comes after another point in time than her coma after the Dark Phoenix Saga. Maybe another Phoenix assault, such as the one in Morrison's run ? This would certainly explain why Emma never acted on that knowledge in the 80s...
- Also, Pierce was expelled from the Hellfire Club after the events of MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL 4 (where he attacks Tessa, Shaw's right hand woman). Which was before Selene first surfaced. For the flashback to work, we have to assume that Shaw and Selene are working with Pierce behind Tessa's back (and presumably Emma's, especially as she's surprised by Shaw & Pierce's Sentinels).

Does this work ? (I don't know much about Namor's chronology.)

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:34 am

JD wrote: - The flashback happened (since Namor also remembers it), but not when Emma remembers it. It should take place much later, after Selene becomes Black Queen. The contradicting elements are only from Emma's perspective (why would Namor care or know about the flashback's location as compared to the Dark Phoenix Saga ?). Since Osborn appears while in hiding anyway, his appearance is not binding.
This requires Shaw and Selene to be concurrently active within the Inner Circle. This requires us to take a look at the membership since Selene joined.

*Between "New Mutants" vol. 1 #23 (January, 1985) to #51 (May, 1987) Shaw is Black King and Selene is Black Queen. The White King position is effectively vacant.
*In "New Mutants" vol. 1 #51 (May, 1987), Magneto and Storm are given the shared position of White King. In Practice the title was mainly used by Magneto who attended Hellfire Club meetings while Storm avoided them.
*From "New Mutants" vol. 1 #51 (May, 1987) to #75(May, 1989), Shaw is Black King, Selene is Black Queen and Magneto is White King. At the end of the period Shaw is voted out by Magneto, Emma Frost and Selene.
*From "New Mutants" vol. 1 #75(May, 1989) to "Uncanny X-Men" #275 (April, 1991), Magneto is White King and Selene is Black Queen. Several issues continue her rivalry with Emma Frost as White Queen. At the end of the period Magneto severs all ties to the various X-Teams and the Hellfire Club.
*From "Uncanny X-Men" #275 (April, 1991) to #281 (October, 1991), Emma Frost is White Queen and Selene is Black Queen. Both King positions are vacant. The period ends with Emma Frost placed into a coma by a Sentinel attack.
*From "Uncanny X-Men" #281 (October, 1991) to #283 (December, 1991), Selene is considered the last active member of this Inner Circle. She was actually manipulating the Upstarts from behind the scenes. She disappears herself for quite a while by the end of that issue.
*From "Uncanny X-Men" #283 (December, 1991) to "X-Men" vol. 2 #29 (February, 1994), no Inner Circle is known to be active. At the end of the period Shinobi Shaw decides to form his own Inner Circle.
*In "X-Men" vol. 2 #29 (February, 1994), Shinobi acts as the new Black King. He offers the vacant position of White King to Archangel. Warren declines.
*From "X-Men Annual" #3 (1994) to "X-Force" vol. 1 #62 (January, 1997), the Inner Circle supposedly consisted of Shinobi Shaw, Benazir Kaur, Reeva Payge and Benedict Kine. Shinobi was clarified as Black King and Kine as White King. The positions of Kaur and Payge were not clarified, they are assumed to be respectively the Black and the White Queen due to the colors of their hair. They wore red and purple clothes instead of black and white. Actually Kaur and Payge appeared in a single issue, Kine in two. During the same period Shinobi offered a position to Storm and Cordelia Frost unsuccessfully campaigned for the White Queen position.
*In "X-Man" #20-22 (October-December, 1996), a rival Inner Circle was formed. Selene as the Black Queen, Madelyne Pryor as Black Rook, Sebastian Shaw as the Black King, Trevor Fitzroy as White Rook. The White King position left vacant. They were supposed to come into conflict with the other Inner Circle and depose them. Instead writers opted to simply drop the other Inner Circle from their storylines. This Circle continues unchanged to "Cable" vol. 1 #47 (October, 1997).
*From "Cable" vol. 1 #47-53 (October, 1997 - April, 1998), Pierce acts as a probationary member of the Inner Circle. He has no title but may assumed to be campaigning for the White King position. At the end of the period Pierce loses his probationary membership.
*In "X-Men" vol. 2 #73 (March, 1998), Shaw resigns as Black King. Fitzroy already considers resigning and Pryor has gone missing. Selene seems to be the only active Inner Circle member until "Fantastic Four Annual '99" (1999).
*In "Fantastic Four Annual '99" a reformed Inner Circle appears. Selene as Black Queen, Blackheart as Black King and Daimon Hellstrom as White King. The White Queen position is vacant. Actually this is the only appearance of Daimon in this role.
*In "Generation X" #56 (October, 1999), Adrienne Frost claims the title of White Queen. Left vague if she is a member of the Inner Circle or simply self-titled.
*In "X-Force" vol. 1 #94-100 (September, 1999 - March, 2000), Selene appears as Black Queen, Blackheart as Black King. They attempt to recruit Sunspot who finally joins as Black Rook. However this is the last appearance of this Inner Circle.
*From "X-Force" vol. 1 #100 (March, 2000) to "Uncanny X-Men" #449 (December, 2004), no Inner Circle is known to be active. The period ends when Shaw is revealed working on founding a new Circle. "Courtney Ross" (Sat-yr-9) is already campaigning for the White Queen position and Viper is offered the White Warrior Princess position.
*In "Uncanny X-Men" #452 (January, 2005), Selene is revealed trapped in the catacombs beneath the abandoned headquarters of the Hellfire Club, presumably explaining her lack of recent appearances. In that issue Emma Frost reclaims the White Queen title and Rachel Grey acts as her Warrior White Princess. They meet "Courtney Ross" and Viper who claim the same respective positions. Frost and Ross play a card game, the winner earning the title. Meanwhile Selene is accidentally released by Grey.
*In "Uncanny X-Men" #453 (February, 2005), Shaw is revealed as the new Lord Imperial and Sunspot as the new Black King. Ross and Viper are members of their Inner Circle.
*In "Uncanny X-Men" #454 (March, 2005), Pierce challenges Shaw's control of the Hellfire Club. Selene and Grey also duel for personal reasons. Selene also acts against Ross and Viper. Grey forces Selene to flee. Shaw and Pierce incapacitate each other. Sage proclaims Sunspot the new Lord Imperial. The new Inner Circle effectively consists of Sunspot, Ross and Viper. The fates of Shaw, Pierce and Selene are left vague. Frost and Grey have no further connection to this Circle.
*Selene next appears in "New X-Men" vol. 2 #32 (January, 2007) but works alone. No clue if she is still affiliated with the Hellfire Club. The new Inner Circle has a hand full of appearances but then is dropped by the writers. When next seen in "X-Men Legacy" #210 (June, 2008), Sunspot is still Lord Imperial and Shaw acts as Black King. Not known if there are other Circle members, active or inactive.

Any period where you think the meeting would fit better? I personally wonder if the "X-Man" #20 (October, 1996) to "X-Men" vol. 2 #73 (March, 1998) would fit better. Shaw was the new leader and affiliated with Selene for the first time since 1989.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by JD » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:25 am

dimadick wrote:Any period where you think the meeting would fit better? I personally wonder if the "X-Man" #20 (October, 1996) to "X-Men" vol. 2 #73 (March, 1998) would fit better. Shaw was the new leader and affiliated with Selene for the first time since 1989.
Way, way to late. In the flashback, the Inner Circle includes not only Shaw and Selene, but also Emma herself as White Queen. So it can't happen after UNCANNY #281, when she goes in yet another long coma (and leaves the Hellfire Club for all intents and purposes).

Whatever way we look at it, this flashback has to happen sometimes in the 80s (or the early 90s at worst).

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:05 am

JD wrote:
dimadick wrote:Any period where you think the meeting would fit better? I personally wonder if the "X-Man" #20 (October, 1996) to "X-Men" vol. 2 #73 (March, 1998) would fit better. Shaw was the new leader and affiliated with Selene for the first time since 1989.
Way, way to late. In the flashback, the Inner Circle includes not only Shaw and Selene, but also Emma herself as White Queen. So it can't happen after UNCANNY #281, when she goes in yet another long coma (and leaves the Hellfire Club for all intents and purposes).

Whatever way we look at it, this flashback has to happen sometimes in the 80s (or the early 90s at worst).
More specifically between "New Mutants" vol. 1 #23 (January, 1985) and "New Mutants" vol. 1 #75 (May, 1989). Previous Inner Circles do not include Selene. Shaw would not be a member again until 1996.

But note the White King position was already covered by #51 (May, 1987) and could not be offered to Namor. This narrows it down a bit. Any other characters mentioned in relation to this flashback? References to the status of Tessa, Harry Leland, Friedrich von Roehm or Emmanuel DaCosta would be particularly useful.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Michael » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:16 am

While considering where this Annual goes, one should consider Tony's and Namor's chronologies around this time period:
In Iron Man#182 (May 1984) Tony stops drinking. Unfortunately, Stane still has almost all of Tony's fortune. Tony finally manages to get his fortune back in Iron Man#203 (February 1986). It would seem that Tony attending the Club takes place after got his fortune back.
Namor's chronology causes problems. Namor loses the throne of Atlantis in Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner#4(December 1984). He finally manages to get it back in the 1990's. Now Selene was introduced to Shaw in Uncanny X-Men#189 (January 1985). Now, if we're assuming that this story takes place when Namor was King of Atlantis, then it would have to take place between Uncanny X-Men#189 and Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner #4. But this was during the period when Tony had lost most of his fortune.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by templedog1972 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:08 pm

I am not as familiar with Tony Stark's history as i am with the X-Men's history, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Tony's Hellfire Club membership was inherited from his father. I know this is a common practice with the Hellfire Club since Candy Southern and Angel/Warren Worthington III have inherited memberships as well. So for arguments sake lets say that Annual #2 takes place around UXM 189 then what exactly was happening Tony Stark at this time? If UXM 189 was after the time when Tony lived on the streets than it could have just been a matter of days later when he could have visited the Hellfire Club. Tony probably did this so he could try to get some financial backing to try and regain control of his company. If Tony's membership was inherited he would still have access to the club despite his financial status.

The Norman Osborne appearance could be explained that if Norman was in hiding in Europe the Club probably smuggled him into the country on numerous occasions. I am pretty sure that Norman was in contact with the London Hellfire Club during this period as well.

Isn't that the way a number of these secret societies work in fiction? They betray, manipulate, and murder each other, but at the same time they take care of their own.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Michael » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:17 pm

Tony was in California at this time working with Rhodey and the Erwins on the Circuits Maximus company. And yes, he could have come to the Club to get investors. But the problem is that Emma and Shaw describe Tony as "rich" and a "playboy". Those terms don't apply to Tony at this point.
The problem with Osborn is that he's attending a party with NAMOR and TONY, not some anonymous rich dudes we've never met. Neither Namor nor Tony would allow a son to think his father was dead just to keep the Club happy. Why wouldn't Osborn be worried about either of them spilling the beans. And Tony definitely saw Osborn there, so why didn't Tony reveal that Osborn was alive?

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Somebody » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:44 pm

This sounds like a literally impossible placement, in that there is absolutely nowhere this can be placed and make sense from all angles. I'm tempted to claim unreliable narrator, and say that the FBs simply aren't canon as depicted - there may be truth IN it, but treat it like DD: Man Without Fear, or MU: The End - similar events may have occurred in the MU, but not exactly as shown in UX@2 2.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by templedog1972 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:54 pm

Michael wrote:Tony was in California at this time working with Rhodey and the Erwins on the Circuits Maximus company. And yes, he could have come to the Club to get investors. But the problem is that Emma and Shaw describe Tony as "rich" and a "playboy". Those terms don't apply to Tony at this point.
The problem with Osborn is that he's attending a party with NAMOR and TONY, not some anonymous rich dudes we've never met. Neither Namor nor Tony would allow a son to think his father was dead just to keep the Club happy. Why wouldn't Osborn be worried about either of them spilling the beans. And Tony definitely saw Osborn there, so why didn't Tony reveal that Osborn was alive?
Was it widely known that Tony was bankrupt at this point, or did maintain he the illusion that he still had a modest amount of wealth left?

It could have been a club edict that Norman's survival be kept a secret. In addition Norman could have requested that his survival be kept a secret from Harry. Norman's reasoning could have been that he wanted to maintain the illusion of his death to preserve Harry's sanity. You have to remember the last time that Norman saw Harry he was half out of his mind on drugs. Maybe Norman thought it was for the best.

I am sorry if my ideas seem a little far-fetched I am only trying to help. :)

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Somebody » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:05 pm

templedog1972 wrote:Was it widely known that Tony was bankrupt at this point, or did maintain he the illusion that he still had a modest amount of wealth left?
It was very, very public. [Hell, even once he was in recovery, he didn't SHAVE until IM 196.]

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by templedog1972 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:17 pm

Somebody wrote:
templedog1972 wrote:Was it widely known that Tony was bankrupt at this point, or did maintain he the illusion that he still had a modest amount of wealth left?
It was very, very public. [Hell, even once he was in recovery, he didn't SHAVE until IM 196.]
Ok, like I said I am not as familiar with Iron man's history.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:18 am

I think to be able to get this to work for all sides, we must consider this is not the same Selene and proceed from there. I thought Selene was a sort of energy vampire, rather than a telepath, anyway. Since, Emma did'nt know about the Sentinal's and she clearly does by UX 151-152, but the appearance must be after Shaw is attacked and his lover killed by them in the Classic X-Men backup. I'm thinking these flashbacks have to occur around the UX 99 era. What year did Spider-Man kill the Green Goblin before he was resurected, In conparison to the X-Men, and Tony could be there anytime acting the playboy. How about Namor at this time? We could just call her another Black Queen/Selene.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:02 am

Michael wrote:While considering where this Annual goes, one should consider Tony's and Namor's chronologies around this time period:
In Iron Man#182 (May 1984) Tony stops drinking. Unfortunately, Stane still has almost all of Tony's fortune. Tony finally manages to get his fortune back in Iron Man#203 (February 1986). It would seem that Tony attending the Club takes place after got his fortune back.
Lets see. Stark quits being Iron Man in "Iron Man" vol. 1 #170 (May, 1983). He loses Stark International to Obadiah Stane in #173 (August, 1983). His downward spiral to becoming a homeless alcoholic ends with #182 (May, 1984). In #184 (July, 1984), Stark co-founds Circuits Maximus with Clytemnestra and Edwin Morley in California. In #191(February, 1985), Stark reclaims the Iron Man identity from James Rhodes. In #200 (November, 1985) Stane dies. In #214 (January, 1987), Stark Enterprises is founded.

Any problem with the new CEO of Stark Enterprises active by "New Mutants" vol. 1 #51 (May, 1987)?

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