X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

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Michael
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X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by Michael » Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:30 am

Currently, X&AF2 is placed before Uncanny 169. This is very problematic with respect to Defenders chronology. Here's why- in Defenders 124, the Scarlet Witch appears. This occurs prior to her appearance in Avengers 233. Avengers 233 crosses over with Fantastic Four 256. X&AF2 takes place after Alpha Flight 3-4, which take place after Fantastic Four 260. Then, in Defenders 125, Angel appears and refers to his ordeal in Uncanny 169-170. So, if the current placement of X&AF2 is correct, in between Wanda's appearance in Defenders 124, and Angel's appearance in Defenders 125, Fantastic Four 256-260, Alpha Flight 3-4, X&AF2 and Uncanny 169-170 all have to take place. It doesn't seem like that much time passed- Val went to Asgard in Defenders 122 to pick up Moondragon and returns in issue 125.

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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:56 pm

That is an odd period of the Defenders to begin with. I believe there was a major changeover of creative team and, of course, the wedding of Patsy Walker & Daimon Hellstrom around those issues... and Overmind disappears without explanation & without anyone noticing or commenting on the fact there. It's entirely possible that a huge chunk of time did pass and something happened to cause Overmind to wipe everyone's memories of the events before disappearing. :wink:
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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by Michael » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:21 pm

No, wait- it stil doesn't work. Here's why- Namor and the Surfer appear in Defenders 122-125. Assuming that X&AF2 takes place before Uncanny 169, FF 256-260 and Alpha Flight 3-4 have to take place between Defenders 124 and Defenders 125. The Silver Surfer appears in FF 259-260 and Namor appears in FF 260 and Alpha Flight 3 and 4. But there's no space in between Defenders 124 and 125 for Namor and Norrin to appear in those issues. In issue 122, they get zapped out of normal time by the Elf, they get returned to Earth in issue 125 and they seemingly go right to Patsy's wedding to tell the New Defenders they quit. Let me put it in simple terms: for Namor and the Surfer, Defenders 125 takes place before FF 260 and Alpha Flight 3 and 4. For the members of Alpha Flight, Alpha Flight 3-4 and FF 260 take place before X&AF2. For the X-Men, X&AF2 take place before Uncanny 169-170. And for Warren, Uncanny 170 takes place before Defenders 125. If you don't believe me, check everybody's chronology.

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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:09 pm

The alternative is maybe a break at the beginning of Defenders 122 just after Daimon proposes to Patsy and before the original 4 are attacked by the Elf?

Or a large break for the 4 original Defenders in Defenders 125 between page 20 and 38? Their storyline isn't specifically tied to the rest of the team except for the Elf's narration bits but the elves are outside of time or something aren't they?
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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by Michael » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:46 pm

metaldragon wrote:The alternative is maybe a break at the beginning of Defenders 122 just after Daimon proposes to Patsy and before the original 4 are attacked by the Elf?
No- as explained above, the problem is the Vision's appearance in Defenders 124.
metaldragon wrote:Or a large break for the 4 original Defenders in Defenders 125 between page 20 and 38? Their storyline isn't specifically tied to the rest of the team except for the Elf's narration bits but the elves are outside of time or something aren't they?
Yeah,that would work but that just raises the question why the original Defenders waited so long to tell the other Defenders they were quitting.

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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:52 pm

Michael wrote:Yeah,that would work but that just raises the question why the original Defenders waited so long to tell the other Defenders they were quitting.
They had to talk/think it over. Probably the best route then.
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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by michel » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:51 pm

I dig up this thread because I have the same problems than Michael with X&AF2 placement. A long break in DEF 125 can't be shoe-horned, because when flying in the quinjet to go to Hellcat and Hellstorm's wedding, the Gargoyle says he phoned Dr. Strange in the morning to tell him about the wedding, and Wong told him Strange couldn't come to answer him on the phone, he was holed up with the Hulk, Namor and the Silver Surfer. And later at the wedding, the four original Defenders come to tell they quit the team. I can't see how FF 256-260 and AF 3-4 can happen in between.

It seems hard to move X&AF2 for the X-Men, the placement in between pages of UX 168 feels good : Wolverine is still there, he has left for Japan in UX 169, Cyclops is there too without Madelyne, Storm still has long hairs.

For Alpha Flight, the fights against Tundra and the Master are mentioned, so it's after AF 4. Could the Master reference be a mistake, to put X&AF2 in between AF 1 and 2 ? The only other way I see is trying to put DEF 122-125 after AF 4, that may be possible but way more complicated.

By the way, Wolverine appears in M/TU 135. But for the other X-Men, including a Storm with long hair, M/TU 135 is after UX 169-171, and in UX 169 Nightcrawler says Wolverine has left for Japan. Wolverine isn't back at the mansion until UX 175, and Storm has her mohawk there. So shouldn't M/TU 135 be before UX 169-171 for the X-Men ?

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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by Michael » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:20 pm

michel wrote:I dig up this thread because I have the same problems than Michael with X&AF2 placement. A long break in DEF 125 can't be shoe-horned, because when flying in the quinjet to go to Hellcat and Hellstorm's wedding, the Gargoyle says he phoned Dr. Strange in the morning to tell him about the wedding, and Wong told him Strange couldn't come to answer him on the phone, he was holed up with the Hulk, Namor and the Silver Surfer. And later at the wedding, the four original Defenders come to tell they quit the team. I can't see how FF 256-260 and AF 3-4 can happen in between.

It seems hard to move X&AF2 for the X-Men, the placement in between pages of UX 168 feels good : Wolverine is still there, he has left for Japan in UX 169, Cyclops is there too without Madelyne, Storm still has long hairs.

For Alpha Flight, the fights against Tundra and the Master are mentioned, so it's after AF 4. Could the Master reference be a mistake, to put X&AF2 in between AF 1 and 2 ? The only other way I see is trying to put DEF 122-125 after AF 4, that may be possible but way more complicated.
We discussed this back in the M/GN 5 thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5262
Basically the Vision scenes in DEF 122-124 have to take place before A 233 because the Vision is paralyzed in A 233,which is a crossover with FF 256. And AF 4 is a crossover with FF 260-261, so the Vision scenes have to take place before AF 4. We decided that the four original Defenders were abducted before UX 169,returned to the exact point in time that they were abducted from and took a couple weeks to tell the New Defenders that they were quitting.
michel wrote:By the way, Wolverine appears in M/TU 135. But for the other X-Men, including a Storm with long hair, M/TU 135 is after UX 169-171, and in UX 169 Nightcrawler says Wolverine has left for Japan. Wolverine isn't back at the mansion until UX 175, and Storm has her mohawk there. So shouldn't M/TU 135 be before UX 169-171 for the X-Men?
The problem is that there are references to UX 169-170 in M/TU 135 but Storm doesn't have a mohawk and Wolverine is present. We decided that Wolverine briefly returned to the Mansion in between pages of Wolverine 1 and after UX 171(maybe his flight was cancelled) and that's when M/TU 135 takes place.

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Re: X-Men/ Alpha Flight (2nd series)

Post by michel » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:03 am

OK, not very natural but it works. Thank you Michael !

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