ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:27 pm

I wrote:(Though, here's something that I should check: does all of X-Factor leave Ship to rescue Jean in the X-Factor Annual? If not ... if, for example, they leave Iceman behind to mind the store ... then this proposed sequence would NOT work, because Iceman would be aboard Ship when the New Mutants arrived in #77.)
Did my research. And it looks like Archangel, Cyclops, Iceman and Ship DO NOT APPEAR in Atlantis Attacks at all! Which means we have no idea where they are during this time!

So: if Jean was kidnapped *after X-Factor returned to Ship from England following XF #42* -- then the rest of X-Factor might have still been aboard Ship during the events of Atlantis Attacks. (Using its sensors to search for her, or just staying there worried sick, or whatnot.) And if so, they'd have been home when the New Mutants arrived in NM #77. Blowing my post-XF #41 theory out of the water.

But: if Jean was kidnapped *from England* -- then the rest of X-Factor might have started an England-based search for her (using the sensors on the little craft Ship gave them) -- or just stayed put, worried sick. And if so, they'd still be away from Ship when the New Mutants arrived in NM #77.

I guess we'll have to see if any of the Annuals in which Jean and Beast appear (XF@ 4, AWC@ 4, T@ 14, FF@ 22) drop any references to where Jean was taken from, or contacting Ship, or anything like that.

This is how these things should work. Proof. Checking the books. Building a weight of evidence. Not assumptions and paraphrasing and automatically picking the simplest solution.

-Jeph!

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:43 am

Oh now isn't this ironic. I provided a solution back at the beginning of this thread which was NOT an easy solution but kept the integrity of NM@ 5 placement as it was written while explaining HOW XF@ 4 and the Atlantis Attacks conclusion could work. It was dismissed. :deadhorse:

I pointed out an easy solution for placing it and you are now creating tortured explanations to justify why you want to place it where you want to. *brickwall* I give up.
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:08 am

Your earlier solution involves chopping up a billion books' subplots and stringing them together out of order. It's messy as hell.

Col_Fury's explanation -- ignore what one book says in order to save the whole -- is simple and easy. I like it.

Your current "easy solution" is fine, and workable, but involves making up LOTS of off-panel adventures. I'm testing a theory about a spot that involves making up FEWER off-panel adventures. I personally consider that to be "better" than your proposed location.

And I'm not "creating tortured explanations" to place the Annual "where I want to". I'm testing the links in the chain. If I hit a link that's absolutely impossible, I'll back off and pursue an alternate placement. THIS IS HOW THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD WORKS. Hypothesis, test, result, conclusion.

I'm not sold on this placement above all others, and determined to force it through no matter what. I LIKE this placement -- and I'm testing to see whether it can work.

So far I've found that all the "evidence" against it has wiggle room. If you would kindly show me a piece of evidence that does not have any wiggle room at all, I would consider it -- and re-think my hypothesis as needed.

(Also, if you would kindly check the books before presenting evidence, I think you'd discover that many of the things you REMEMBER as being ironclad -- really aren't. I'm still gaping at how you interpreted "don't worry X-Factor, we'll totally do all these things, including return Illyana, before you get back!" to mean "X-Factor, we will now immediately leave to return Illyana without delay!")

Right now I'm testing the link in the chain that is Jean and Beast's appearances in Atlantis Attacks. I've already re-read XF Ann #4 and there are no references to where Jean was grabbed from. Could have been Ship -- could have been England -- impossible to say. Are there any references in the other Annuals?

This is how chronologizing should work. Create theory, test theory. If theory fails, pursue alternate theory. Not "state repeatedly that things can't possibly work without actually trying to MAKE them work."

If you want to "win the argument," you might try checking the books for evidence and building a case -- like I'm doing.

I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong. Because it would mean that we've found the only slot that works, and we can put the issue to bed. But the key word is "proven". Go to books; find proof. Don't just regurgitate half-remembered snippets from the issues, repeatedly state "it makes no sense whatsoever" and then ignore all the ways I point out in which things COULD be interpreted to make sense.

I'm still waiting to hear what others think.

-Jeph!

(Also? No -- that's not "ironic".)

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:20 am

This is me posting multiple times in a row. :)

I'm reading those Annuals, checking to see if there are any references to where Jean was abducted from.

And it just occurred to me: if Jean was abducted from England in XF Annual #4 -- and if the rest of X-Factor stayed there, searching for her locally -- then, in NM #77, when Rictor says "X-Factor is still in England" ... HE'S RIGHT.

And we don't need to make up a song and dance to get around that reference at all. There's no conflict.

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DRUNK PARTY!

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:59 am

I just finished re-reading XF@ 4, AWC@ T@ 14 and FF@ 22. The only reference I'm seeing is in AWC@ 4, page 3 in a narrator's caption that says Jean was "snatched out of the Beast's hands."

There's no mention anywhere during Atlantis Attacks that I can see that says what the rest of X-Factor is up to *during* Atlantis Attacks.
metaldragon wrote:it makes no sense to have the annual between XF 41 & NM 77.
But as you mentioned earlier, in NM 88:
metaldragon, on page 1 wrote:Wolfsbane: "... and so we left Asgard and came home and fought with some Atlanteans underwater and..."
Wolfsbane tells Jean in NM 88 that since the last time the kids saw X-Factor, they fought some Atlanteans. If NM@ 5 (the kids fight Atlanteans) happens before XF 41 (the last time the kids saw X-Factor before NM 88), then the reference in NM 88 falls apart. Placing NM@ 5 after XF 41 means Wolfsbane's not telling Jean something Jean already knows in NM 88.
metaldragon wrote:There is nothing directly connecting NM 76 to XF 41. There are already stories for Beast & Angel that are in that spot. There IS dialogue connecting XF 41 to NM 77 (plan to take Illyana to parents while X-Factor in England
Ah, but there is a connection between NM 76 and XF 41, which I commented on earlier in this topic:
on page 1, Daron wrote:NM 76 ends the adventure with Namor and the kids wonder what they’ll do with the de-aged Illyana.

NM 77 starts with the kids returning Illyana to her parents in Russia.
To expand, at the end of NM 76 the New Mutants are stuck with child-Illyana and they wonder what they're going to do with her. In XF 41 the New Mutants discuss with X-Factor their decision to return Illyana to her parents in Russia.

As you say, there's already a lot of stories that take place between NM 76 and XF 41. So it either took the New Mutants a while to decide to return Illyana to her parents, or they decided relatively quickly and it took a while to do the actual returning of Illyana to her parents. Either way, there's a bit of time between NM 76 and NM 77 where the New Mutants aren't taking Illyana home ALREADY.
JephYork wrote:I've said it before, but it bears repeating: let's not forget that little snippet of dialogue in NM #88 where Rahne excitedly tells Jean that the New Mutants fought Atlanteans since the last time they saw X-Factor. If we place Atlantis Attacks before XF #41, then that's not true anymore. Rahne would have fought Atlanteans (in NM@5), THEN seen X-Factor (in XF #41, where they talked about Inferno for a long time and nothing else) -- then excitedly talked about their Atlantean battle the NEXT time they saw X-Factor (in NM #88).

It's awkward but it's not unbelievable. But, if we place Atlantis Attacks after XF #41-42 -- then the next time that Rahne sees Jean after the Atlantean battle WOULD be NM #88. And it would make perfect sense for her to excitedly info-dump stories of the battle at that point.
Exactly.
JephYork wrote:if Jean was abducted from England in XF Annual #4 -- and if the rest of X-Factor stayed there, searching for her locally -- then, in NM #77, when Rictor says "X-Factor is still in England" ... HE'S RIGHT.

And we don't need to make up a song and dance to get around that reference at all. There's no conflict.
I commented on this point earlier in this topic:
on page 2, Daron wrote:Also, I just flipped through XF@ 4 again and we don't know where Jean and Beast were pulled from. They could have been pulled from England while Cyclops was appearing in M/CP 17-24. Cyclops doesn't appear in XF@ 4 or the rest of Atlantis Attacks.
XF@ 4 shows and AWC@ 4 says that Jean and Beast were together when Jean was taken. Where was Cyclops? Appearing in M/CP 17-24, I guess. But that's a good point about Rictor's reference.

I'm leaning toward placing Atlantis Attacks after XF 41 at the moment, but at this point I'd like to hear what other people think about this. Before or after XF 41? Michael or Frans? You've both commented on NM@ 5, what do you think? Anyone else?
-Daron Jensen

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Michael » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:19 am

I'm with the "place Atlantis Attacks after XF 41" side. For me, it's completely unbelievable that Rahne would be talking about a battle that occurred before her last meeting with Jean.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Frans » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:04 pm

Because of my fondness for New Mutants I was against the idea to put the Annual somewhere else then the writer suggested. The "fun" thing is that from the perspective of the specific characters we don't have any chronology issues. For New Mutants and X-Factor members we can easily put the order as Louise Simonson intended it to be. For X-Men we can pretend Atlantis Attacks happens before child Storm. For Avengers as it was intended to be with Avengers Island intact. Even Freedom Force can be put into the right sequence. IT's just if you put it all together it doesn't make sense anymore.

It's something that bugged me several years (same as others I found out in this post) and indeed there's no perfect tight fit solution. Something has to budge or break. The solution where issues are shred into pieces I personally don't like very much. But neither is the assumption of New Mutants being drunk or having several off panel adventures. Also ignoring parts and communication to fit your needs, is something I'm initially against.

The solution to have Atlantis Attacks just after XF 41-42 is the best one IMHO. We can pretend that the New Mutants took Dani to a doctor (not Doc Strange) as they promised to X-Factor in XF 41. They left Dani, Rusty, Skids and Illyana in the waiting room, no need for them all to wait there. Then the others went back and can't find Ship back. NM@5 happens. Then the remainder of the crossover. The New Mutants (during the remainder of AA crossover) get Dani, Rusty, Skids and Illyana from the doctor and they bring back Illyana to Russia as shown in NM 77.

We have to disregard the comments "Being back on Earth", "Dani en Asgard", "What if the Ship and X-Factor on it are still away in space", "Probably Avalanche and Freedom Force attacking us again" in NM@5.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:46 pm

Glad to see some support for this CRAZY UNWORKABLE theory. And Fury, thanks for checking the issues -- I got tired and gave up last night.

Two things:

1) New Mutants #77 explicitly says that Dani has NOT been to a doctor yet. So we can't use that as an excuse for where Dani is. However, we can easily make up some other perfectly valid excuse -- maybe she was just home sick, with Rusty and Skids nursemaiding her.

2) I just remembered that the New Mutants spent lots of time in Limbo in NM #70-73. Maybe THAT'S why they're saying how good it is to be back on Earth!

-Jeph!

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:03 pm

Jeph wrote
I guess we'll have to see if any of the Annuals in which Jean and Beast appear (XF@ 4, AWC@ 4, T@ 14, FF@ 22) drop any references to where Jean was taken from, or contacting Ship, or anything like that.
X-Factor Annual no.4 says that in no time they are over the South Atlantic, traveling at what Beast feels is almost supersonic. When Beast finally gets Jean to break the tractor beam. Beast and her are close to a Spanish speaking Water purification treatment facility along a coast.

So I would think she was taken from somewhere over the Atlantic heading West, South West, over the Atlantic, traveling just under Mach 1. I don't think Beast was holding on for hours from England.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:24 pm

Hmm. Trouble is, it would take "hours" at Mach 1 to reach the South Atlantic from pretty much anywhere. By this logic, they must have already been right next to the South Atlantic when Jean was abducted.

I think you're probably taking Beast's off-the-cuff physics a bit more literally than they were meant to be taken, and making some assumptions about how long they're in the air.

-Jeph!

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by DonCampbell » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:54 am

JephYork wrote:Hmm. Trouble is, it would take "hours" at Mach 1 to reach the South Atlantic from pretty much anywhere. By this logic, they must have already been right next to the South Atlantic when Jean was abducted.

I think you're probably taking Beast's off-the-cuff physics a bit more literally than they were meant to be taken, and making some assumptions about how long they're in the air.

-Jeph!
The Beast's mention of being "high over the South Atlantic" can probably be explained away as just a mistake on his part since it is inconsistent with other "facts." During the whole Atlantis Attacks storyline, Ghaur is shown to be operating out of at least three bases. Any that are associated with Lemuria are obviously located in the Pacific Ocean. As for those two which are definitely in the Atlantic Ocean, one is Magneto's Island in the Bermuda Triangle and the other is within swimming distance of the Altar of Neptune's Wrath, an ancient place of worship that is on the seafloor "four hundred miles off the craggy coastline of New England." Neither of those locations is in the South Atlantic.

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Frans » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:37 am

JephYork wrote:2) I just remembered that the New Mutants spent lots of time in Limbo in NM #70-73. Maybe THAT'S why they're saying how good it is to be back on Earth![Jeph!
Excellent, the Limbo reference that cleared up one of the New Mutant's remarks.
JephYork wrote:1) New Mutants #77 explicitly says that Dani has NOT been to a doctor yet. So we can't use that as an excuse for where Dani is. However, we can easily make up some other perfectly valid excuse -- maybe she was just home sick, with Rusty and Skids nursemaiding her.
Let's go for at home sick with very young Illyana and Rusty and Skids watching over her. So far it's fairly logic. The odd thing is that the other NM's can't find Ship after they left their team mates on it. I suppose they went for some training outside of Ship (as they've done in NM 76 also). Then Ship went away for some reason and they can't find him back. At the end of NM@5 they found him. All off panel of course and far stretching...

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:13 pm

Jeff, there is no call for you being a jerk towards me. Yes, I disagreed with some of your interpretations on how your placement could be made to work but I didn't get personal. Both here, and in a thread that's in the archives where I brought up a problem with the placement of A@ 15, you kept making digs at me. And don't make me quote some of the things you've written, as if they were words I wrote, as proof. Back off.

I bought these books when I was a teen when they first came out and have a strong emotional connection to both X-Factor & The New Mutants from this period which has made me resist some of your ideas. I'm not completely unreasonable but your attitude has turned me off. And your "This is how chronologizing should work." speech is especially condescending considering how much work I put into my original suggested placement based on how NM@ 5 IS WRITTEN.
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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by JephYork » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:29 pm

Nothing about this is "personal". I'm not taking digs at you as a human being. I'm taking digs at your seeming inability to think past your preconceived notions -- or to re-examine the source material to confirm your assumptions -- or to analyze evidence with an open mind. (Or to fully read my posts.)

You've been pushing your "rip apart the subplots and reasemble them in a different order" solution for FOUR YEARS. You bring it up every time the topic comes up. Nobody's bitten. Four years of failing to sway anyone somehow did not dissuade you, or cause you to consider trying an alternate approach.

You dig your heels in far too quickly -- deciding that things "make no sense", refusing to continue thinking them through, and actively discouraging others from doing the same. Case in point, this recent exchange:

You: "Why would Rictor say that X-Factor's in England if they're fighting in Atlantis Attacks at this time? It makes no sense whatsoever!"
Me/Fury: "What if Jean and Beast were kidnapped FROM ENGLAND, and the rest of X-Factor remained there for the duration of the event?"
You: "..."
I have a strong emotional connection to both X-Factor & The New Mutants from this period
I think we've just identified the problem.

-Jeph!

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Re: ATLANTIS ATTACKS!

Post by Michael » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:43 pm

metaldragon, it should be noted that the reason for this confusion is that for some reason the plot of New Mutants Annual 5 was changed at the last minute. It was originally supposed to feature the kids against U-Man on Avengers Island but the plot was changed. Notice how we never find out what happened to U-Man after the Avengers Annual. Note how Ben describes a battle between U-Man and Namorita that never happened in the FF Annual. Notice how Atlantis is destroyed TWICE in Atlantis Attacks. The last-minute change in plot caused all sorts of problems and it's a lot easier to interpret NM@ 5 creatively than it is to cut all the other stories in the Marvel Universe into pieces and rearrange plots.

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