New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:13 am

Fury, what did you propose?
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by morwen » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:35 am

It's already been hinted there is a long gap between ASM 545 (OMD part 4) and ASM 546 (first BND). So, let us take that up

*NA@2 (Spider-Man Black, Doctor Strange goes away)
*OMD [make this compatible with NA@2 however you see fit]
*Spider-Man changes costumes
*NA38 (Spider-Man Red), the gang find a new place to hang out

*Secret Invasion, etc

*Doctor Strange comes back
*ASM 546
*In ASM 555 Spider-Man makes what could be taken as oblique reference to Secret Invasion

Except this fails because the latest She-Hulk refers to events in BND, and is clearly pre-Secret Invasion.

Wow, this is quite hard, isn't it?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:22 pm

Morwen, move "Secret Invasion" to after ASM #555 and I'm right there with you. "Doctor Strange comes back" -- it's as simple as that...

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:45 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:Fury, what did you propose?
:)
I know you didn't intend it to be read like this, but as I saw it I thought it would be a whole lot funnier if it read like this:

Fury... what did you propose? :shock: :x

Emoticons are fun! Anyway, I'll paraphrase:

Spider-Man participates in New Avengers Annual #2, where Dr. Strange's house is damaged and he leaves the team. Soon after, One More Day occurs where Spider-Man has to demand to be let into Dr. Strange's boarded up house.(which is a nice turnaround. At first, Dr. Strange cast an illusion that made his house look damaged and boarded up, then when it actually IS damaged and boarded up he has to cast an illusion inside to make it look nice again) Later, Dr. Strange realized he was being a jerk back in New Avengers Annual #2 and started letting the guys hang out at his place again, as seen in Amazing #555, where we see that Dr. Strange is still weak from all the dark magics he's had to use lately.(as referenced in New Avengers Annual #2) And if some future comic needs Dr. Strange to be in exile, as he said he would be in New Avengers Annual #2, he finally decided to do it after he collapses here.
morwen wrote:Wow, this is quite hard, isn't it?
Sometimes, but it's always fun! Welcome to the boards, morwen!
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:32 am

jephyork wrote:Morwen, move "Secret Invasion" to after ASM #555 and I'm right there with you. "Doctor Strange comes back" -- it's as simple as that...
I'm not prepared to go with that unless Strange reappears for real, living like normal with Wong in the Sanctum at full power, with absolutely no reference (or at most a non-recent-past-tense reference) to the events of NA@ 2. Nothing's changed, except that the error which seemed confirmed now is now absolutely confirmed.

Meanwhile, Secret Invasion #1 picks up the New Avengers in their post-NA@ 2 status of living in Iron Fist's indirectly-owned apartment. And we've been told - though not with specifics - that that won't be their status post-SI. So you're suggesting Strange comes back, says "I'm alright again", the NAs say "Well, that's alright then", the Sanctum is reclaimed and repaired without SHIELD-related difficulty,... and then the NAs move out again, moving back to Iron Fist's building.

I think I've said before that I hate multiple off-panel U-turns. I still hate them. And I would be prepared to take any other solution over that, including "forgetting" that Spider-Man has his mask off in NA@ 2.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:46 am

the Sanctum is reclaimed and repaired without SHIELD-related difficulty,...
I would think that magic trumps SHIELD pretty much any day.
and then the NAs move out again
See, this assumes that they moved back IN to begin with. I didn't see "the New Avengers" in ASM #555 -- I saw Spidey and Wolvie. Maybe they just dropped by for breakfast with Wong.

Assuming that the entire NA roster officially moved back into Dr. Strange's mansion, then all officially moved back out again, is creating a hurdle where none exists.

-Jeph!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:56 am

Further thoughts:

We basically have two ways to go here. One of the following things is a mistake, and needs to be dealt with:

1) Dr. Strange's appearances in One More Day and ASM #555.

2) Spidey's costume and lack of mask in NA@2.

If we assume that #1 is the mistake, Col_Fury has demonstrated that there are various ways of "explaining" Dr. Strange's anomolous post-NA@2 appearances. This is a situation that, while clumsy, can be made to work.

If we assume that #2 is the mistake ... there is simply NO WAY TO EXPLAIN IT. Spidey absolutely cannot appear unmasked after the events of ASM #545. We have to write it off as "an error", pure and simple, and stick an unmasked, black-costume Spidey appearance long after the events of OMD.

I'd prefer to go with the clumsy yet explainable solution, than the "this is a glaring error and we're just going to ignore it" solution.

-Jeph!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:08 am

Unless, as I've said, the Strange plot is completely dropped from here on (as the Silent War ending has now essentially been), I don't see the Strange situation as any more explainable. IF it's dropped, THEN it becomes "clumsy, but explainable" in the way you and Fury are describing - otherwise you're just transferring the same problem from Spider-Man to Strange.

And thus we need to wait to see if it's picked up in Strange's next appearance.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:03 pm

Unless ... the Strange plot is completely dropped from here on ... I don't see the Strange situation as any more explainable.
Col_Fury just explained how to get back to the NA@2 status quo!
if some future comic needs Dr. Strange to be in exile, as he said he would be in New Avengers Annual #2, he finally decided to do it after he collapses here.
-Jeph!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:16 pm

jephyork wrote:
Unless ... the Strange plot is completely dropped from here on ... I don't see the Strange situation as any more explainable.
Col_Fury just explained how to get back to the NA@2 status quo!
if some future comic needs Dr. Strange to be in exile, as he said he would be in New Avengers Annual #2, he finally decided to do it after he collapses here.
So, the risk of completely losing control and killing everyone wasn't enough to make him go through with taking the time to strip away all the Bad Magic that might make him do that?

Not seeing it. At the end of NA@ 2, he's an active danger to everyone around him. THAT'S WHY HE LEAVES. Not because he was a jerk (in fact, HE DOESN'T KICK THEM OUT OF THE SANCTUM. Danvers is the one who tells them to git on the basis that if they don't, she'll have to arrest them; as I pointed out the first time Fury said that.), but because he nearly killed them all (barring Wong's lucky intervention) AND HE MIGHT DO IT AGAIN.

Fury's predicating his whole theory on a different NA@ 2 ending to the one I read.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:26 pm

Well, I'm still not sold on the "ignore Peter's unmasked face" bit ... but I'll agree that we should probably wait until Dr. Strange appears again, to see how his story is continued.

-Jeph!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:55 pm

He could have gone on exile to purge the dark magics,(NA@ 2) returned to let people hang out at his place, then collapsed because he was weak from the purging.(ASM 555) Then he went into exile again to be picked up on in a future issue.

I don't know, and none of us will until we see Strange's next appearance. However,
jephyork wrote:If we assume that #2 is the mistake ... there is simply NO WAY TO EXPLAIN IT. Spidey absolutely cannot appear unmasked after the events of ASM #545. We have to write it off as "an error", pure and simple, and stick an unmasked, black-costume Spidey appearance long after the events of OMD.
Whatever solution ends up being used is going to require some kind of BTS explanation, and I really, really don't want to use 'art error' for such a major Spider-Man plot point. *shrug*

Wait & SeeTM seems to be the best option.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:45 am

Col_Fury wrote:
Wait & SeeTM seems to be the best option.
That's what I've been told...by one of the more recent participants in this discussion. :wink:

The issue of Spidey chronology relative to Secret Invasion came up at some point. I should note that ASM 546-548 is tightly linked to the current MSM2 story arc, as Jonah's heart attack is news in MSM2 25. And the current MSM2 story arc is a Secret Invasion tie-in. ASM 549 begins a "week" after ASM 548 and the story arc that runs to ASM 555 takes nine days to unfold. Thus, Spidey's and Logan's hanging at the Sanctum occurs two weeks after the MSM2 25 Secret Invasion tie-in.

Interesting that, if ASM 555 occurs after NA@1 (which it must, given Spidey's mask situation and the NA tie-in to Secret Invasion), the sham of the Sanctum being a future Starbuck's is perpetuated after the Sanctum is repaired. Maybe SHIELD's response to the battle at the Sanctum in NA@1 was wiped from all agents' memories and records as if...by magic! :roll:
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:05 pm

Can I get a clarification on something brought up and dropped earlier in the thread - what, exactly, is the current editorial position on what characters remember about Spider-Man between Cap's arrest and BND? People were claiming earlier in the thread, on a different reading of Joe Q's interviews from me, that Spider-Man had been officially around between CW & BND. And I've just read this at spiderfan.org that tallies with the way I read things, that others were saying wasn't true:
http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews ... g/547.html
So what else can I say about this issue? Slott finally clears up the mystery of whether the Swing Shift story from Free Comic Book Day 2007 (Spider-Man) is in continuity or not. Apparently, that story showcases the only time since the end of the Civil War that Spider-Man has been seen in public in his costume. Quite what that does to continuity over in New Avengers in anyone's guess.
Again, that was my reading of Joe Q's interviews, etc. Is that supported by ASM547? (either in the letters page or story)

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by cweed4 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:13 pm

I'm pretty sure Spidey's appearance in Swing Shift is the first time he is seen in his classic costume since CW. Between BiB, NA, WWH, etc... there is NO WAY it is his first public appearance since CW. And, to repeat my previous argument, everyone remembers everything EXCEPT Spidey's identity.
jephyork wrote:Further thoughts:

We basically have two ways to go here. One of the following things is a mistake, and needs to be dealt with:
1) Dr. Strange's appearances in One More Day and ASM #555.
2) Spidey's costume and lack of mask in NA@2.

-Jeph!
Not to toot my own horn, but my previous 2-step Mephisting theory does remove the mistake entirely.
Spoiler:
TOOT! TOOT! :lol:

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