Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by cweed4 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:03 pm

Currently, Spidey has 9 entries for the SM:PL graphic novel.

PETER PARKER
ASM 400-FB
SM:PL (1)
PPTSS 225/2-FB
~
PPSM2 27-FB
SM:PL pg 3
ASM@ 1-FB
~
ASM 94 (3:1 - 3:3)-FB
SM:PL (6:2 - 6:3)
AAF 15 (3:7 - 4:1)
~
PPSM2 33-FB
SM:PL (14:3 - 14:5)
AAF 15 (9:1)
~
AAF 15 (9:6 - 9:7)
SM:PL (18:1)
AAF 15 (10:1 - 10:2)
~
ASM 28 (17 - 20)
SM:PL
ASM@ 2
ASM 29
ASM 30
ASM 31
ASM 32
SM:PL
ASM 32
ASM 33
~
ASM 42-FB
ASM 42
SM:PL
ASM 42
ASM 43
~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21
SM:PL
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
WOSM 31

First off, I have added some page/panel breakdowns that were missing.

Secondly, I think all but the last entry should get a FB designation since the scenes are narrated by either Peter or MJ.

I did not see any new material that would suggest the need for an entry between the pages of ASM 32 and so both that particular entry and the split entry for issue 32 have been removed.

There should be an entry between pages of ASM@ 21. Doc Ock is revealed to be monitoring the wedding with video drones and he catches there marriage kiss on screen. This is both a new scene that deserves entry and a retcon that requires adding a BTS listing for the annual to Otto's chronology.

The concluding pages of the graphic novel (48-62) are all original story material and need a new placement. As it stands now, the final entry for SM:PL is placed after Peter and MJ return from their honeymoon. This entry (which should be the only one without a FB designation) simply can't fit here for the following reasons:
1) MJ mentions having bought a condo (occurs in ASM 300-301)
2) MJ mentions Pete returning to school (occurs in ASM 303)
3) MJ mentions having lost the condo (occurs in ASM 314)

The other big clue comes from MJ (again) inviting May over for dinner at their place. This means the story has to take place after WOSM 57 since they have moved out of May's and into their new loft by then. It would also seem preferablE to keep this in front of Ock's next appearance w/ Spidey (ASM 334). This leaves a fairly good sized window and I lean towards the beginning of it given the number of minor(?) Doc Ock appearances before he shows up with the Sinister Six in issue 334. Shortly after being established in their new loft is the Acts of Vengeance cross-over and putting the story in front of that seems as good a place as any.

So, all of that leaves the following changes-

PETER PARKER
ASM 400-FB
SM:PL (1)-FB (just added FB designation)
PPTSS 225/2-FB
~
PPSM2 27-FB
SM:PL (3 - 4)-FB (appears on 2 pages)
ASM@ 1-FB
~
ASM 94 (3:1 - 3:3)-FB
SM:PL (6:2 - 6:3)-FB (just added FB designation)
AAF 15 (3:7 - 4:1)
~
PPSM2 33-FB
SM:PL (14:3 - 14:5)-FB (just added FB designation)
AAF 15 (9:1)
~
AAF 15 (9:6 - 9:7)
SM:PL (18:1)-FB (just added FB designation)
AAF 15 (10:1 - 10:2)
~
ASM 28 (17 - 20)
SM:PL (28:4 - 29:2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM@ 2
ASM 29
ASM 30
ASM 31
ASM 32 (2 entries removed)
ASM 33
~
ASM 42-FB
ASM 42 (1-19) (page/panel breakdowns)
SM:PL (39:1-39:2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM 42 (20) (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM 43
~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21 (1-41) (page/panel breakdowns)
SM:PL (47:2)-FB (new entry)
ASM@ 21 (42) (new entry)
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21 (43) (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
WOSM 31
~
WOSM 57
PPTSS 157
WOSM 58
SM:PL (48-62) (new placement)
M/CP 39/4
ASM 326


DOC OCK
WOSM 5
SWII 7
WTS 17
WTS 18
ASM@ 21-BTS
SM:PL (47:2-47:4)-FB

ASM 296
ASM 297
DAMCON 1-BTS
SM:PL (48-62)
M/CP 50/3
SOLOA 17
DAMCON2 4-BTS
M/CP 127/2
ASM 334

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by John Simons » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:42 am

I know I did the original analysis for this book, but I don't seem to have my notes anymore. Anyone know if it's in the forum archives somewhere?
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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by cweed4 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:18 pm

Found it in the 3rd forum archive- "Message threads from 10/15/00 to 11/17/00".


Here was the statement regarding the FB question-
This graphic novel is not FBs, but rather tells a linear story of Peter's and MJ's lives up until their wedding, skipping ahead in time every few pages. Since the story keeps jumping forward in time, it is necessary to partition each individual time period into it's own section. What I came up with is 21 different sections in which this graphic novel unfolds.
Considering that both Peter and MJ have narration over these scenes I think they have to be considered flashbacks.



Here is the analysis for original story material that ends the book-
Section 21 (43- end)

The most contemporary scenes of the graphic novel, they take place immediately after the ending of ASM @ 21 . I no longer own this annual, but if I remember correctly the annual ends just as Peter and MJ are standing before the preacher, before they give their vows? Or maybe not, I don't recall anymore.

Anyway, this section starts with them exchanging the "I do"s. Present at the wedding are not only the preacher (who isn't named) but Flash Thompson, Harry Osborn, Liz Osborn, Joe Robertson, J Jonah Jameson, Betty Brant, May Parker, Anna Watson. Assuming the vows bit is a new scene exclusive to the gn, these characters all appear here between ASM @ 21 and whatever their various next appearences are in their current chronologies.

Finally, Dr. Octopus most likely appears here between PPTSS 124 and ASM 296.
For the reasons stated above, pages 46+ have to occur later on.


I also want to plug your final analysis comment as well.
That about wraps it up. The only other thing I could tell you from this graphic novel is how the dialogue in here matches up to identical scenes in the original stories. It depends on how important it is to include these representations with the ol' ~ sign. If it is preferable, it can be done, but since only certain scenes of the originals but not whole issues are shown again, it will end up with a lot of this type of listing:

ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL
ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL
ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL
ASM 30
ASM 30~ASM: PL

....you get the point.
There are numerous scenes that come straight from previous issues. Some are drawn at different angles, split up the dialogue exchanges, or even switch panel ordering. For the ultra-obsessive chronologists this could provide for many more SM:PL entries.

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:00 pm

cweed4 wrote:Here was the statement regarding the FB question-
This graphic novel is the story keeps jumping forward in time, it is necessary to partition each individual time period into it's own section. What I came up with is 21 different sections in which this graphic novel unfolds.
Considering that both Peter and MJ have narration over these scenes I think they have to be considered flashbacks.
They don't have to be. This is usually treated simply as a storytelling device. For instance, many Punisher stories are narrated by the Punisher, but they're not flashbacks.


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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by Somebody » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:51 pm

Administrator wrote:They don't have to be. This is usually treated simply as a storytelling device. For instance, many Punisher stories are narrated by the Punisher, but they're not flashbacks.
Speaking solely in general terms though, most first-person narrations are in the present tense as a log of what the character is thinking at the specific moment of the panel (to the point that if the narrator is surprised or attacked, the narration will reflect that with something like a "wha-huh"). Whereas, by contrast, the events in SM:PL are narrated by Peter & MJ at the time of their wedding, looking back on The Way Things Were - it's only in the very last panel, when Spidey & MJ hug, that Peter's narration finally hits present tense (MJ's never does - her narration refers to the last scene as "that morning").

Not arguing for either case, just thought it was a note worth making.

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by Enda80 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:08 pm

Captain American Annual#13 gets narrated in the first person by the Red Skull. Captain American I#323 gets narrated in the first person by Cap, as does #326. #326 as I recall, seems to follow somebody's "What-huh" example. Cap visits Skull House to investigate paranormal manifestations. He encounters what he initially dismisses as a hologram of the Red Skull, but when the "hologram" recites information about the Red Skull's last moments that Cap (who was with the Skull when the Skull died in his original body), Cap does get taken aback. I suppose this would get treated as a flashback if Cap's narration had ran "That little line from the "hologram" caught me off guard at the moment, but later I found out why it could say what it did".

I suppose that the diagetical reason why these characters are narrating while this is all happening is a habit of composing for their journals in their heads from long practice of recording their adventures for the Avengers log or Shield Datacore or their journals (Captain American I#246 shows that Cap kept a war journal during WWII and the Phantom of Cardiff Moore story notes that "Captain America's choice for the spine-chiller of the month -- taken from his own personal files" -- it's "No. 382-F").

Master of Kung Fu #38-39, and in fact, many Shang-Chi stories get narrated in the first person (including when Shangi-Chi crashed the AIM Weapons Expo). I do not see too many of those list as fbs.
Last edited by Enda80 on Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by cweed4 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:14 pm

Somebody's analysis of the narration's tense is correct. Maybe I need to put FB's on everything but the last panel *doh* The only other argument for FB is that the opening 2 pages have the faces of (adult) Peter and MJ superimposed over parts of the panels along with their narration. It gives the impression of looking at them in "present time" talking about past events. Maybe we need a poll to decide this question? :outtahere: I'm actually more interested in any feedback regarding the shift in placement for the original story material at the end of the comic.

I've also attempted to flesh out the beginning chronology for MJ by comparing SM:PL with ASM 259 and UTSM 16 (in addition to the new ending placement). There is some tweaking here but its also a lot of additional page/panel breakdowns.

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
PPSM2 1/2-FB
ASM 259 (3:2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ as a baby
SM:PL (2)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) infant MJ, Philip Watson tantrum w/ red hair
UTSM 16 (3:2)-FB kids are young, another Philip Watson tantrum
ASM 259 (3:3-5:6)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
--->ASM 259 (3:3-3:6) young MJ, Philip Watson tantrum w/ graying hair
--->ASM 259 (4-5:2) family moving around, then the divorce
--->ASM 259 (5:3) staying w/ relatives 1
--->ASM 259 (5:4) staying w/ relatives 2
--->ASM 259 (5:5) staying w/ Anna
--->ASM 259 (5:6) MJ 13, 1st sees Peter

SM:PL (4)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ 13, 1st sees Peter, extended scene
****** (UTSM 16-FB entry moved up)
ASM 259 (8:3-8:5)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
--->ASM 259 (8:3) move in w/ Frank Brown
--->ASM 259 (8:4) Madeline taking care of his 3 kids too
--->ASM 259 (8:5) stern Frank

SM:PL (10)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ 14, Pitt HS, living w/ Frank
--->This is the key to some of the changes made here. While it appears to lead directly into the next pg scene, w/ MJ in the same outfit, that simply can't work. ASM 259 establishes that she is already 15 before Gayle gets pregnant (which is announced on the very next page).
UTSM 16 (3:3)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) MJ+Gayle are HS age
ASM 259 (8:6 - 9:9)-FB
--->ASM 259 (8:6) Gayle starts dating Timmy
--->ASM 259 (8:7-9:3) high school memories
--->ASM 259 (9:4-9:5) Gayle engaged
--->ASM 259 (9:6) Gayle married
--->ASM 259 (9:7) Gayle leaves town
--->ASM 259 (9:8) moves ahead 1 yr, MJ now 15
--->ASM 259 (9:9) receive letter that Gayle is coming for visit w/ a "surprise"

SM:PL (11 - 12)-FB~ASM 259 (10:1)-FB~UTSM 16 (3:4)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) Gayle arrives to announce pregnancy
****** (UTSM 16-FB + ASM 259-FB entries combined w/ above)
SM:PL (15)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) Thanksgiving of same yr
ASM 259 (10:2-10:3)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) baby born
SM:PL (17-18)-FB (page/panel breakdowns) learns Peter is Spidey in retcon of AF 15
SM:PL (25)-FB~UTSM 16 learns about blind date
UTSM 16 Spidey vs. Radioactive Man
SM:PL (27)-FB fakes headache
--->The closing dialogue in UTSM 16, by MJ, stated that she "might come down w/ a headache or something" to avoid dating Peter the next time Anna brings it up.
ASM 15-BTS
UTSM:SE occurs prior to ASM 16 based on Spidey chronology
ASM 16-BTS
****** (ASM 259-FB entry removed)
****** (UTSM:SE entry moved up)
{ASM 25}
WTS 9-BTS
****** (ASM 259-FB entry removed)
ASM 38
ASM 259 (13:4 - 14:9)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
--->ASM 259 (13:4-13:7) Gayles marriage going bad
--->ASM 259 (13:8) 2nd baby on the way
--->ASM 259 (13:9) Timmy leaves Gayle
--->ASM 259 (14:1) MJ+mom move in w/ Gayle
--->ASM 259 (14:2) mom sick
--->ASM 259 (14:3) MJ part-time job
--->ASM 259 (14:4) mom dead, Gayle still pregnant
--->ASM 259 (14:5-14:9) graveyard scene when MJ leaves

SM:PL (37-38)-FB (page/panel breakdowns)
ASM 42
~~~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21 (1-41) (page/panel breakdowns)
SM:PL (47:2)-FB video scene kiss
ASM@ 21 (42) wedding reception
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21 (43) (page/panel breakdowns)
****** (SM:PL entry removed)
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
ASM 293
~~~
WOSM 57
PPTSS 157
WOSM 58
SM:PL (48-62)
M/CP 39/4 needs to be moved in accordance w/ this thread
ASM 326
PPTSS 158
WOSM 59
ASM 327
****** (M/CP 39/4 entry removed)
PPTSS 159-BTS
ASM 328








Here is the clean version-

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
PPSM2 1/2-FB
ASM 259 (3:2)-FB
SM:PL (2)-FB
UTSM 16 (3:2)-FB
ASM 259 (3:3-5:6)-FB
SM:PL (4)-FB
ASM 259 (8:3-8:5)-FB
SM:PL (10)-FB
UTSM 16 (3:3)-FB
ASM 259 (8:6 - 9:9)-FB
SM:PL (11 - 12)-FB~ASM 259 (10:1)-FB~UTSM 16 (3:4)-FB
SM:PL (15)-FB
ASM 259 (10:2-10:3)-FB
SM:PL (17-18)-FB
SM:PL (25)-FB~UTSM 16
UTSM 16
SM:PL (27)-FB
ASM 15-BTS
UTSM:SE
ASM 16-BTS
{ASM 25}
WTS 9-BTS
ASM 38
ASM 259 (13:4 - 14:9)-FB
SM:PL (37-38)-FB
ASM 42
~~~~~
ASM 292
ASM@ 21 (1-41)
SM:PL (47:2)-FB
ASM@ 21 (42)
PPTSS@ 7
ASM@ 21 (43)
ASM '96/2
M/CP 99/4
ASM 293
~~~~~
WOSM 57
PPTSS 157
WOSM 58
SM:PL (48-62)
M/CP 39/4
ASM 326
PPTSS 158
WOSM 59
ASM 327
PPTSS 159-BTS
ASM 328

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:47 pm

I almost hate to ask this...but how does SPIDER-MAN: WITH GREAT POWER... #1-5 fit into all this?
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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by cweed4 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:22 pm

IF you want to consider it canon I don't think it would be that difficult. Most of the first 3 issues occur between the end of AAF 15 pg 6 (costume design) and the start of pg 7 (his tv appearance). I would guess the rest happens between pg 8 and the first panel of pg 9 (newspaper headlines make Spidey a sensation). Any FB's presented through the series would have to be considered separately.

My vote is for out-of-continuity though. Some of the drastically different character depictions (eg Ben & Flash) and modernized environment were unsettling. But, getting the name of his agent wrong should disqualify it immediately. And these are my beefs after only reading one issue!

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by Enda80 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:10 pm

cweed4 wrote:IF you want to consider it canon I don't think it would be that difficult. Most of the first 3 issues occur between the end of AAF 15 pg 6 (costume design) and the start of pg 7 (his tv appearance). I would guess the rest happens between pg 8 and the first panel of pg 9 (newspaper headlines make Spidey a sensation). Any FB's presented through the series would have to be considered separately.

My vote is for out-of-continuity though. Some of the drastically different character depictions (eg Ben & Flash) and modernized environment were unsettling. But, getting the name of his agent wrong should disqualify it immediately. And these are my beefs after only reading one issue!
Re: the modernized environment-I seem to recall that for Emma Frost, tales of her youth in her eponymous series which featured technology (well, commonly available technology) that did not become commonly available until more recent times were not judged as excluding those stories from canon. Due to the vagaries of the sliding timescale, Frost's youth now took place X-15 years ago, not X-15 years from the 1980's (when she made her published debut).

Does anyone recall where the analysis of the Emma Frost series appears in the archives? Does anyone know of any other flashback stories that have showed the sliding timescale in effect?

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by newtron » Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:27 am

Enda80 wrote:Does anyone recall where the analysis of the Emma Frost series appears in the archives? Does anyone know of any other flashback stories that have showed the sliding timescale in effect?
betty brant has a computer at the bugle in webspinners tales of spider-man 8 and 9. i seem to remember seeing cellphones in some of the spidey insert stories too. i agree that this isn't really an issue, considering the sliding timescale. that doesn't negate other problems that may exist with the series, though.
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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by cweed4 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:21 pm

This topical/sliding timescale explanation was mentioned back when this series was first announced. I don't expect that such things would keep it out of MCP chronology but I mention it because I simply didn't like the first issue and that was just one of the problems. At some point I will read through the whole series and maybe my opinion will change then. I am curious as to how many differences there are which can't simply be ignored. (Like changing the agent's name, for example.)


Back to the SM:PL FB question. There are numerous (minor) discrepancies between its origin story and AF 15 (eg character clothing, dialogue, & re-ordered panels). Such things are usually discounted under the "topical" argument but I prefer to explain them as memory recall errors. This slight difference helps when making other origin comparisons as well (like w/ ASM 94).

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by Enda80 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:22 pm

newtron wrote:
Enda80 wrote:Does anyone recall where the analysis of the Emma Frost series appears in the archives? Does anyone know of any other flashback stories that have showed the sliding timescale in effect?
betty brant has a computer at the bugle in webspinners tales of spider-man 8 and 9. i seem to remember seeing cellphones in some of the spidey insert stories too. i agree that this isn't really an issue, considering the sliding timescale. that doesn't negate other problems that may exist with the series, though.
I forgot that another definite sign of the sliding timescale in action would involve Bloodshed's backstory. Said to take place during the early months of the Spider's crime-fighting, look at what he (the pre-Bloodshed Wydnell Dichinson) wore.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/bldshd.htm

This story got published in 1991.

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Re: Spider-Man:Parallel Lives

Post by newtron » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:57 pm

i just finished reading with great power and i think it should be considered canonical. i'll probably do an analysis shortly.
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