Henry Pym's Skrulling

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robfj
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Henry Pym's Skrulling

Post by robfj » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:20 pm

I believe there's something wrong with the positioning in Veranke's timeline of Mighty Avengers 15 (17 - 18) where Skrull Criti Noll I becomes Henry Pym.

Here are the relevant sequences:-

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
NA 42 (3 - 7)
NA 43-FB
NA 14 (14)-FB
HRC3 1-FB
NA 14 (15:2 - 15:5)-FB
MA 16-FB
MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
NA 14 (16)-FB
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
{NA 1}
NA 2
NA 3-FB
NA 42 (14)
NA 3 (1 - 21)
NA 42 (15)
NA 3 (22)
NA 4 (1 - 7)
NA 42 (17 - 18)
NA 4 (8 - 22)
NA 5
NA 6 (1 - 13)
NA 41 (17 - 18:3)-FB
NA 6 (14)
NA 41 (18:4 - 19&20:2)-FB
NA 6 (17 - 23)
NA 8-FB
MA 15 (17 - 18) shouldn't be here
NA 7
NA 8
....

YELLOWJACKET/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
....
A:FINALE
W3 22
IRRANT 5-FB-FB
IRRANT 1-FB
IRRANT 3-FB
MA 15

YELLOWJACKET IMPOSTER/CRITI NOLL
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
M/KSM 15
M/KSM 16-BTS
HOM 1 (1 - 17)
NA 42 (19 - 22)
....

I will prove that MA 15 (17 - 18) can't possibly occur in Veranke's timeline between New Avengers 6 and 7, and then I will show where it must go.

But 1st a preamble:-

In NA 42 you identify 4 Skrull imposters:- Veranke, Criti Noll, Jarvis and 1 of the Contessa Skrulls. Veranke and Criti Noll are given more than 1 entry with specific page ranges. Jarvis and the Contessa are just allocated the whole issue, which means either they only appear in 1 scene each or there is no reason to split their multiple scenes into different parts of their timelines.

Contessa Val appears with Veranke in p8-12:3, a scene where Skrulls meet to discuss among other things getting a job for Veranke/Spider-Woman in SHIELD. Only 3 other Skrulls speak apart from Veranke. Val and an unnamed Skrull SHIELD Agent say they can get her in. An unnamed 'female' Skrull wants to replace Susan Richards to kill Reed, but is turned down. This scene is obviously before NA 1 where V/SW is working for SHIELD at Rykers.

Jarvis has his own later app in p17-18 where V/SW joins the Avengers, a variation on the opening scene of NA 4. It's possible he's also in the Skrull crowd in p8-12:3, but if so he would need these apps separating because p19-21 of NA 3 intervenes where he resumes his job as Avengers' butler.

Criti Noll/Henry Pym is given 2 page ranges p8-12:3 and p19-22. The 2nd scene is a long way ahead at the start of House of M. It is possible that 1 of the non-talking heads in the 1st scene is supposed to be him, but I will give a reason later why it can't be. But more importantly he does have another app on p15 totally distinct from either of the other 2. Here V/SW discusses with him accepting the offer to join the Avengers.

I'll lay out the timeline for the relevant V/SW and CN/HP apps, with some other apps inserted.
NA 42 (8 - 12:3) The Skrull meeting to get V/SW her SHIELD job.
NA 1-2 & NA 3 (3 - 9)-FB & NA 42 (12:4 - 14) The Rykers Breakout.
(You don't list NA 42 (12:4 - 13) because they are a replay of bits in NA 1, whereas NA 42 (14) is a new scene after Sentry arrives.)
NA 3 (1 - 2 & 10 - 16) (Cap and Stark recruit various Avengers).
NA 3 (17 - 18) Cap recruits V/SW.
NA 3 (19 - 21) They recruit (Skrull) Jarvis.
NA 42 (15) V/SW discusses joining Avengers with CN/HP.
NA 3 (22) & NA 42 (16) V/SW discusses joining Avengers with Madame Hydra.
Again you don't reference NA 42 (16) because it's a copy of NA 3 (22).
Which means that Madame Hydra doesn't get an entry in NA 42, only in NA 3 as Viper II, despite the fact that it is only NA 42 that reveals who she is.

It should be clear now that MA 15 (17 - 18) can't happen after NA 6 because Pym is already a Skrull in NA 42 (15) inside NA 3. (And it is obvious from the dialogue on that page that he and Veranke know that each other is a Skrull.)


So MA 15 (17 - 18) must be before NA 42 (15). But in order to nail it down more accurately I'll have to work out when Henry Pym was abducted by the Skrulls.

HP's conversion was detailed in MA 15 in 3 sections:-
p1-5 Hank Pym and Jan van Dyne are in England but she leaves him.
p6-16 Hank hooks up with a young female student who is a Skrull who kidnaps him.
p17-18 Veranke creates the Skrull Pym.
The 2nd section can be placed exactly because when Henry wakes up after sleeping with the girl the Rykers Breakout is on the news. They then spend an indeterminate amount of time together before she KO's him.

Thus we have:-
NA 42 (8 - 12:3) The Skrull meeting to get V/SW her SHIELD job.
NA 1-2 & NA 3 (3 - 9)-FB & NA 42 (12:4 - 14) The Rykers Breakout.
MA 15 (6 - 16) Henry Pym is seduced and captured by a Skrull
NA 3 (1 - 2 & 10 - 16) (Cap and Stark recruit various Avengers).
NA 3 (17 - 18) Cap recruits V/SW.
NA 3 (19 - 21) They recruit (Skrull) Jarvis.
NA 42 (15) V/SW discusses joining Avengers with CN/HP.
NA 3 (22) & NA 42 (16) V/SW discusses joining Avengers with Madame Hydra.

The affair in MA 15 (6 - 16) may last days, and can overlap with NA 3 ((1 - 2 & 10 - 16).
For Veranke there's probably very little gap between NA 3 (17 - 18) and NA 42 (15), so I'd put MA 15 (17 - 18) before the pair.
MA 15 (17 - 18) could also happen alongside NA 3 (1 - 2 & 10 - 16), but the easiest way to represent it is probably:-
NA 42 (8 - 12:3) The Skrull meeting to get V/SW her SHIELD job.
NA 1-2 & NA 3 (3 - 9)-FB & NA 42 (12:4 - 14) The Rykers Breakout.
MA 15 (6 - 16) Henry Pym is seduced and captured by a Skrull
NA 3 (1 - 2 & 10 - 16) (Cap and Stark recruit various Avengers).
MA 15 (17 - 18) Veranke turns Criti Noll into Henry Pym.
NA 3 (17 - 18) Cap recruits V/SW.
NA 3 (19 - 21) They recruit (Skrull) Jarvis.
NA 42 (15) V/SW discusses joining Avengers with CN/HP.
NA 3 (22) & NA 42 (16) V/SW discusses joining Avengers with Madame Hydra.

Luckily we don't need to be so precise to change the sequences for Veranke, Pym and Criti Noll.

Current:-

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
{NA 1}
NA 2
NA 3-FB
NA 42 (14)
NA 3 (1 - 21) change to (17 - 18)
NA 42 (15)
NA 3 (22)
NA 4 (1 - 7)
NA 42 (17 - 18)
NA 4 (8 - 22)
NA 5
NA 6 (1 - 13)
NA 41 (17 - 18:3)-FB
NA 6 (14)
NA 41 (18:4 - 19&20:2)-FB
NA 6 (17 - 23)
NA 8-FB
MA 15 (17 - 18) move to before NA 3 (1 - 21)
NA 7
NA 8
....

Changed to:-

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
{NA 1}
NA 2
NA 3-FB
NA 42 (14)
MA 15 (17 - 18) moved from before NA 7
NA 3 (17 - 18) changed from (1 - 21)
NA 42 (15)
NA 3 (22)
NA 4 (1 - 7)
NA 42 (17 - 18)
NA 4 (8 - 22)
NA 5
NA 6 (1 - 13)
NA 41 (17 - 18:3)-FB
NA 6 (14)
NA 41 (18:4 - 19&20:2)-FB
NA 6 (17 - 23)
NA 8-FB
NA 7
NA 8
....

I also changed V's NA range from (1 - 21) to (17 - 18) because those are the only non-FB pages she's in within there, and no-one else is listed with page range (1 - 21).

Henry Pym's sequence
....
A:FINALE
W3 22
IRRANT 5-FB-FB
IRRANT 1-FB
IRRANT 3-FB
MA 15
doesn't need changing because for him his apps in MA 15 have no interruptions.

I would however suggest changes to Criti Noll.

Current:-

YELLOWJACKET IMPOSTER/CRITI NOLL
NA 42 (8 - 12:3) delete
M/KSM 15
M/KSM 16-BTS
....

Changed to:-
YELLOWJACKET IMPOSTER/CRITI NOLL
MA 15 (17 - 18) added
NA 42 (15) added
M/KSM 15
M/KSM 16-BTS
....

I've added the missing MA 15 (17 - 18) for his transformation by V, and NA 42 (15) for his meeting with her.
I've deleted NA 42 (8 - 12:3) because not only isn't he absolutely identifiable in that Skrull crowd scene but V's timeline has him not created yet.


I would also suggest 1 more change.

You ignore NA 42 (12:4 - 13) because they duplicate stuff in NA 1. But it is clear to me that NA 42 (12:1 - 12:3) are also a duplication of NA 3 (3:1 - 3:5) as V/SW watches Luke Cage and Matt Murdock's helicopter land on Rykers. So they too should be ignored. And NA 42 (8 - 12:3) should be reduced to NA 42 (8 - 11) in Veranke's timeline, which is the only place it exists now.

robfj
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Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:50 am
Location: England

Re: Henry Pym's Skrulling

Post by robfj » Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:42 pm

It seems to me that in MA 15 the Skrull who seduces Hank Pym is also the Criti Noll I that replaces him. The Marvel Wiki claims this too.

As such Criti Noll's entry MA 15 (17 - 18) should be expanded to include p6-16 as well. We can't just give him/her the whole issue MA 15 because CN is listed separately for p20 which occurs in a different time period. You could invent MA 15 (6 - 16) as a new page range, but rather than that it I think would be better to invent MA 15 (6 - 18) to replace the existing 1. If you don't want to create a new page range you could take advantage of the existing MA 15 (1 - 16) which Wasp occupies, and make the change:-

YELLOWJACKET IMPOSTER/CRITI NOLL
MA 15 (1 - 16) added
MA 15 (17 - 18)
NA 42 (15)
M/KSM 15
M/KSM 16-BTS
....

I don't know what your general policy is for this kind of thing (if you have 1).

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