Spider-Man: Christmas 1996

[lettsmonster]

The current Spider-Man chronology at the end of 1996 looks like this:

ASM 420
XM 24
SM 77
SM 78
DC/M/:AACC 1
XM 26-FB
HFH 1
SENSM 13 (2:3 - 22)
SENSM 14
SENSM 15
P3 16
SSM 242
SSM 243
SSM 244
SSM 245
SSM 246
ASM 421
ASM 421/2
M/HOL 1996
SMU 15

My concern is this:

ASM 420 takes place on Christmas Eve
XM 24 takes place on Christmas day
M/HOL 1996 takes place on both Christmas Eve and day

Reading M/HOL 1996, it is possible to wedge this story into both ASM 420 and XM 24, but I am not sure which of these issues to move in which direction in the chronology, in order to keep the Christmas stories together.

A couple of aids from other issues on this list:

1) In P3 16, the Punisher calls the Daily Bugle to speak with Ben Urich at the exact time the Bugle staff are learning of the assassination of Graydon Creed. This event takes place on election eve in November.

2) In ASM 421/2, Peter is starting his first day back at ESU to finish his graduate studies. Presumably, the semester would start after the holidays.

3) In SMU 15, the splash page tells us that this story takes place the week between Christmas and New Year's.

Just curious for the opinions of the Spider-Man experts at the project on which way to go with this. Thanks!

[wolverine7230]

Coming from the perspective of logic, as I haven't read any of these ever (except the X-Men issue):

If you moved the holiday special, then all of this:

SM 77
SM 78
DC/M/:AACC 1
XM 26-FB
HFH 1
SENSM 13 (2:3 - 22)
SENSM 14
SENSM 15
P3 16
SSM 242
SSM 243
SSM 244
SSM 245
SSM 246
ASM 421
ASM 421/2

Would have to happen in less than a week to fit with the issue that is 'in the week between Christmas and New Year'. Which could work (as I haven't read them, so don't know the timescale), but it seems like a bit much.

So I'd move everything to the Holiday Special, for chronology's sake.

But then you have #420 after #421.... So maybe put between SSM 246 & ASM 421? I think that seems like a suitable solution.

-wolverine

[Col_Fury]

Thanks for finding this, lettsmonster!

I know we moved X-Man #24 a while back to line up with ASM 420, but obviously some more work is needed.

Continuity between the Spider-books were fairly tight in the ‘90s (not quite as tight as the X-books were, but still), so plots and story references will have to be checked before any changes are made. In theory, publication order tends to line up with story references, because of when the books were released.

Let’s take a look!

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
…
SM:HOBGL 3 (Jan-Mar ‘97)
ASM 420 (Christmas Eve) (Feb ‘97)
XM 24 (Christmas Day) (Feb ‘97)
SM 77 (Feb ‘97)
SM 78 (Mar ‘97)
DC/M/:AACC 1 (Dec ’96-Feb ‘97)
XM 26-FB
HFH 1 (July ‘97) (uh… what?)
SENSM 13 (2:3 - 22) (Feb ‘97)
SENSM 14 (Mar ‘97)
SENSM 15 (Apr ‘97)
P3 16 (early November) (Feb ‘97)
SSM 242 (Jan ‘97)
SSM 243 (Feb ‘97)
SSM 244 (Mar ‘97)
SSM 245 (Apr ‘97)
SSM 246 (May ‘97)
ASM 421 (Mar ‘97)
ASM 421/2 (mid January) (Mar ‘97)
M/HOL 1996 (Christmas Eve into Christmas Day) (Feb ‘97)
SMU 15 (between Christmas & New Year) (Feb ‘97)
V:OT 2 (Mar-May ‘97)
…

Just going by topical references, we should probably have at least:

P3 16 (early November) (Feb ‘97)
…
(about six weeks of space)
…
ASM 420 (Christmas Eve) (Feb ‘97)
M/HOL 1996 (Christmas Eve into Christmas Day) (Feb ‘97)
XM 24 (Christmas Day) (Feb ‘97)
SMU 15 (between Christmas & New Year) (Feb ‘97)
…
(about two weeks of space)
…
ASM 421 (Mar ‘97)
ASM 421/2 (mid January) (Mar ‘97)

For the X-Men, DC/M/:AACC 1 happens before Graydon Creed is assassinated, so P3 16 needs to stay after DC/M/:AACC.

The Hulk has HFH 1 after SMTU 6. Spider-Man has SMTU 6 after Valentine’s Day, but HFH 1 before P3 16. Publication order says M/VAL SPEC -> SMTU 6 -> HFH 1. That’s a problem.

Black Widow has TB 1 after P3 17. Spider-Man has TB 1 before P3 16. TB 1 was published the same month as P3 18. That’s another problem.

At the moment, I’m assuming the general order of SM, SENSM, SSM & ASM is correct.

In theory, taking the above into account:

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
…
SM:REVELATIONS (115 - 121)
SSM 241 (Dec ‘96)
DC/M/:AACC 1 (Dec ’96-Feb ‘97)
JIM 505 (Jan ‘97)
P3 16 (early November) (Feb ‘97)
SENSM 12 (Jan ‘97)
SENSM 13 (1 - 2:2) (Feb ‘97)
ASM 419 (Jan ‘97)
SM 76 (Jan ‘97)
SM:HOBGL 1 (Jan ‘97)
SM:HOBGL 2 (Feb ‘97)
SM:HOBGL 3 (Mar ‘97)
ASM 420 (Christmas Eve) (Feb ‘97)
M/HOL 1996 (Christmas Eve into Christmas Day) (Feb ‘97)
XM 24 (Christmas Day) (Feb ‘97)
SM 77 (Feb ‘97)
SM 78 (Mar ‘97)
XM 26-FB
SMU 15 (between Christmas & New Year) (Feb ‘97)
SENSM 13 (2:3 - 22) (Feb ‘97)
SENSM 14 (Mar ‘97)
SENSM 15 (Apr ‘97)
SSM 242 (Jan ‘97)
SSM 243 (Feb ‘97)
SSM 244 (Mar ‘97)
SSM 245 (Apr ‘97)
SSM 246 (May ‘97)
ASM 421 (Mar ‘97)
ASM 421/2 (mid January) (Mar ‘97)
V:OT 2 (Apr ‘97)
V:OT 3 (May ‘97)
SM 79
SM 80
SMU 16
SENSM 16/2
SENSM 17/2
SENSM 16
SENSM 17
SENSM 18
P3 17
TB 1 (Apr ‘97)
SM:DMH
SS3 128
SS3 129
M/VAL SPEC
UX 346
SMTU 6
SMTU 6/2
SS3 132
SM 81
SMTU 7
HFH 1 (July ‘97)
SENSM 19 (1 - 10)
…

Again, we’ll have to check to see if any of these moves cause any problems, and if they don’t, what other moves will be needed to make sure other characters line up with Spider-Man’s chronology. And of course, to see if there are any other problems we haven’t caught yet.

Thoughts?

[lettsmonster]

Thanks for looking at this block of Spider-Man chronology, Col_Fury! I was hoping someone would.

I completely agree with you on moving HFH 1 to much later in the chronology. It was giving me trouble trying to move all the other character appearances in the book to earlier in the year as well. I would argue it is too early in the Bannerless Hulk chronology as well. Either way, Spider-Man and the Bannerless Hulk appear in four issues together: HFH 1, SMTU 6, and SENSM 14 and 15. Moving forward, these at least need to correspond in both chronologies.

In reference to TB 1, I don't think cover date is necessarily an issue. If you remember, the whole issue is basically a flashback story to a few weeks after Onslaught. The chronology predates IH2 449 (Jan '97), the first true appearance of the Thunderbolts.

This weekend I will read the new order you have suggested and see if anything else pops out. Thanks again!

[lettsmonster]

Col Fury, there's one more issue I need advice on concerning any order changes.

First, let me explain how I use the MCP and how I find the things I do, and then I will get specific. Basically, I use the MCP to enlarge my collection moving forward in time. Currently, I am collecting and reading 1997 Marvel comics. I essentially haven't read or collected anything yet from Marvel beyond this point. For every calendar year I use the key to write down all issues published that year and start collecting. Then, using the MCP, I try to read all the books for that year chronologically. Couldn't do it without you!

Now, to get specific. When I reached SMU 16, Silver Sable mentions X-Force having already been to Latveria. So, to keep reading things chronologically for the year, I started reading the X-books at the beginning of 1997. (I am just starting this year. I almost have all the books).

My new concern with Spiderman's chronology is his appearance in JIM 513. Current X chronologies place JIM 513 immediately before UX 341. And guess what? UX 341 is another Christmas Eve story. And you can see how far past Christmas Eve JIM 513 is in Spiderman's chronology.

According to the text of JIM 503-513, the story takes place a couple of months after Onslaught and spans a period of a few weeks time, this last according to the splash page of JIM 513. (Spiderman also appears in JIM 505, so this might help us as well).

Thoughts?

[Col_Fury]

First, let me explain how I use the MCP and how I find the things I do, and then I will get specific. Basically, I use the MCP to enlarge my collection moving forward in time. Currently, I am collecting and reading 1997 Marvel comics. I essentially haven't read or collected anything yet from Marvel beyond this point. For every calendar year I use the key to write down all issues published that year and start collecting. Then, using the MCP, I try to read all the books for that year chronologically. Couldn't do it without you!

That's AWESOME. I love it!

My new concern with Spiderman's chronology is his appearance in JIM 513. Current X chronologies place JIM 513 immediately before UX 341. And guess what? UX 341 is another Christmas Eve story. And you can see how far past Christmas Eve JIM 513 is in Spiderman's chronology.

Luckily, this one's easy. The recent Thor Index provided different placements for this issue for the X-characters. Oddly, I thought we fixed this already, but obviously not.

BEAST/HENRY "HANK" P. MCCOY
……
W2 111
**JIM 513 (move from here)
UX 341
UX 342
UX 343
UX 344
UX 345
UX 358-FB-BTS
UX 347-FB
UX 347
UX 348
UX 349
UX 350
*JIM 513 (move to here)
X2 70
……

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS
……
W2 111
**JIM 513 (move from here)
UX 342
X2 62
X2 63
X2 64
X2 65
X2 66
W2 115
W2 116
W2 117
W2 118
UX 350
X2 70
C 50
*JIM 513 (move to here)
UX 376 (2&3:3)-FB
X2 71
……

PHOENIX VI/JEAN GREY SUMMERS
……
W2 114
**JIM 513 (move from here)
UX 342
X2 62
X2 63
X2 64
X2 65
X2 66
W2 115
W2 116
W2 117
W2 118
UX 350
X2 70
C 50
*JIM 513 (move to here)
UX 376 (2&3:3)-FB
X2 71
……

Getting back to this topic's on my to-do list. We're getting there!

[Col_Fury]

Black Widow has TB 1 placed too late in her chronology, and needs it moved closer to the Onslaught crossover. Before IGUARD 1-FB, which happens… around Christmas.

HFH 1 is placed too early in various chronologies, and needs to be moved closer to publication order.

Also, Daredevil has SM 74 placed too late in his chronology. SM 74 happens before SM 75 (where Parker resumes being Spider-Man), which happens before TB 1 (where Parker appears as Spider-Man), which happens before TM/U 1 (where Daredevil and the Thunderbolts appear).

While I’m here, M/VAL SPEC /2 happens on Valentine’s Day, and is currently placed too early for Daredevil & Karen Page; it needs to be moved to after SS3 129 to line up with Spider-Man’s M/VAL SPEC story (which is also around Valentine’s Day).

Also, looking into M/VAL shows UX 346 is too early for Spider-Man, and then I noticed IH2 455 is too early for the X-characters when compared to the rest of the universe. UX 346 is part of the Operation: Zero Tolerance crossover; IH2 455 both need to happen before that crossover.

All this poking around also shows that IH '97/2 is placed too late for Hulk compared to the GenX characters, which has to happen before Christmas for Trish Tilby. Also, V:OT needs to be before Christmas, also because of Trish (I'll tackle this for Spider-Man in the next post; he's the only one that needs it moved).

Fun!

BANSHEE II/SEAN CASSIDY
……
GENX 27/2
*TREK/X:SC (move to here)
GENX 25
GENX 26
GENX 27
GENX 28/2
**TREK/X:SC (move from here)
GENX 29
……

BLACK WIDOW III/NATALIA ALIANOVNA ROMANOVA/"NATASHA ROMANOFF"
……
IH:HRCU
*TB 1 (move to here)
IGUARD 1-FB
DD 361
P3 17
**TB 1 (move from here)
TB 3
……

CABLE/NATHAN SUMMERS
……
XFOR 61
**IH2 455 (move from here)
XFOR '96/2
XM 25
C 37
C 38
C 39
C 40-FB
C 40
C 41
C 42
CA2 6
C 43
C 44
XFOR '97
XFOR 63-FB
XFOR 63
XFOR 64
XFOR 67
*IH2 455 (move to here)
C 45-FB
……

CANNONBALL/SAMUEL ZACHARY GUTHRIE
……
X2 60
**IH2 455 (move from here)
BEAST 1
BEAST 2
BEAST 3
X '97
UX '97
W2 111
NM:TD 1
NM:TD 2
NM:TD 3
UX 341
UX 342
*IH2 455 (move to here)
X2 62
……

CITIZEN V V/HELMUT ZEMO
……
IH2 450
TM/U 1
**HFH 1 (move from here)
TB 2
TB 3
SMTU 7
*HFH 1 (move to here)
TREK/X:SC
TB 4
……

CYCLOPS II/SCOTT SUMMERS
……
X '96
**M/VAL SPEC /5 (move from here)
X2 60
X2 61
**IH2 455 (move from here)
XFOR '96/2
XU 13 (1 - 21)
XU 13-FB
XU 13 (22 - 39)
SS3 123
XM '96/2
X '97
XM 25
C 44
UX '97
W2 111
UX 342
*M/VAL SPEC /5 (move to here)
*IH2 455 (move to here)
X2 62
……

DAREDEVIL/MATT MICHAEL MURDOCK/"JACK BATLIN"
……
A '99-FB
*SM 74 (move to here)
*DD 359 (move to here)
*DD 360 (move to here)
TM/U 1
DD:R 1
DD:R 2
DD:R 3
DD:R 4
DD:R 5
DD:R 6 (2)-FB
DC/M/:AACC 2
V:OT 1
V:OT 2
V:OT 3
**SM 74 (move from here)
S&L 1/4
**DD 359 (move from here)
**DD 360 (move from here)
**M/VAL SPEC /2 (move from here)
DD 361
DD 362
P3 17
SS3 128
SS3 129
*M/VAL SPEC /2 (move to here)
DD 363
……

DOCTOR STRANGE/DR. STEPHEN VINCENT STRANGE/"STEPHEN SANDERS"
……
DC/M/:AACC 4
*XFOR 60 (move to here)
**SMU 15 (move from here)
EL 4
EL 5
**XFOR 60 (move from here)
IH2 450/2
SS3 125
SS3 126
**EL 8 (move from here)
*SMU 15 (move to here)
SMTU 6/2
*EL 8 (move to here)
SENSM 22
……

FORGE
……
XF 130
**IH2 455 (move from here)
XF 132
XF 133
XF 134
XF 135
*IH2 455 (move to here)
XF 136
……

HULK (BANNER-LESS)
……
SMTU 6
**HFH 1 (move from here)
IH '97
IH '97/2-FB
*IH '97/2 (move to here)
IH2 451
IH2 452 (1 - 19)
DP3 4
IH2 452 (20)
SENSM 14
SENSM 15
IH2 452 (21 - 22)
**IH2 453 (delete)
*IH 453 (1 - 21)
**IH '97/2 (move from here)
*HFH 1 (move to here)
**IH2 453 (delete)
*IH 453 (22)
IH2 454-FB
IH2 454
……

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
……
SENSM 18
**UX 346 (move from here)
SMTU 7
SMU 16
M/TU2 1
M/TU2 2
SENSM 19-BTS
SMU 17
ASM 423
ASM 424
SM '97
SSM 246
SSM 247
SSM 248
SSM 249
*UX 346 (move to here)
ASM 425
……

KLAW/ULYSSES KLAW
……
OEDGE 6
**HFH 1 (move from here)
TB 3
*HFH 1 (move to here)
C 54
……

NELSON, FRANKLIN P. "FOGGY"
……
SM:REVELATIONS
**HFH 1 (move from here)
DD 361
SSM 242
DD 362
DD 363
DD 364
DD 365
DD 366
*HFH 1 (move to here)
DD '97
SSM 250
……

PAGE, KAREN
……
DD 360
**M/VAL SPEC /2 (move from here)
DD 361
DD 362
*M/VAL SPEC /2 (move to here)
DD 363
……

PHOENIX VI/JEAN GREY SUMMERS
……
X '96
**M/VAL SPEC /5 (move from here)
XFVR 1
XFVR 2
X2 60
X2 61
**IH2 455 (move from here)
XU 13 (1 - 21)
XU 13-FB
XU 13 (22 - 39)
SS3 123
XM '96/2
X '97-FB
X '97
XM 25
C 43
C 44
UX '97
W2 111
W2 112
W2 113
W2 114
UX 342
*M/VAL SPEC /5 (move to here)
*IH2 455 (move to here)
X2 62
……

SHARPE, ROSALIND
……
DD 358
**V:OT 1 (move from here)
DD 359
DD 360
*V:OT 1 (move to here)
DD 361
……

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
……
XM 26-FB
**HFH 1 (move from here)
*SMTU 6 (move to here)
*SMTU 6/2 (move to here)
SENSM 13 (2:3 - 22)
……
M/VAL SPEC
**UX 346 (move from here)
**SMTU 6 (move from here)
**SMTU 6/2 (move from here)
SS3 132
SM 81
SMTU 7
*HFH 1 (move to here)
SENSM 19 (1 - 10)
……
SSM 250 (1 - 17:2)
*UX 346 (move to here)
ASM 425
……

STORM/ORORO MUNROE
……
X2 61
**IH2 455 (move from here)
X '97
C 41
C 42
XU 14
UX '97
W2 111
W2 113
W2 114
UX 342
TREK/X:SC
*IH2 455 (move to here)
X2 62
……

TILBY, TRISH
……
X2 58
**IH '97/2 (move from here)
SENSM 10
XM:ASD-FB
GR3 82
P3 16
*IH '97/2 (move to here)
V:OT 2
V:OT 3
X '97
UX 341
……

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/JAMES HOWLETT
……
X2 61
**IH2 454 (move from here)
**IH2 455 (move from here)
X '97
W2 111
W2 112
W2 113
W2 114
**CDAWN 1 (move from here)
UX 342
*CDAWN 1 (move to here)
TREK/X:SC
*IH2 454 (move to here)
*IH2 455 (move to here)
X2 62
……

[Col_Fury]

And now we’re down to lining up holidays, which started this whole thing in the first place. I’m sure there’s some more tinkering to do in this area, but at least things will be more or less lined up after this:

BRIDGE, GEORGE WASHINGTON "G.W."
……
P3 12-FB
**P3 16-BTS (move from here)
TM/U 1
*P3 16-BTS (move to here)
C 37
……

JAMESON, JOHN JONAH JR.
……
SSM 241
*P3 16 (move to here)
SENSM 12
SENSM 13
SM 76
SM:HOBGL 1
SM:HOBGL 2
ASM 420-BTS
*M/HOL 1996 (move to here)
**P3 16 (move from here)
SSM 242
**M/HOL 1996 (move from here)
SSM 246
SM 79
*SMU 16 (move to here)
*SENSM 16
SENSM 18
UX 346
SMTU 7
**SMU 16 (move from here)
M/TU2 1
……

ROBERTSON, JOE
……
SM:REVELATIONS
*P3 16 (move to here)
ASM 419
SM:HOBGL 1
SM:HOBGL 2
**P3 16 (move from here)
SMU 16
……

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
……
SM:REVELATIONS (115 - 121)
SSM 241
JIM 505
TB 1
*DC/M/:AACC 1 (move to here)
*P3 16 (move to here)
SENSM 12
SENSM 13 (1 - 2:2)
ASM 419
SM 76
SM:HOBGL 1
SM:HOBGL 2
SM:HOBGL 3
*V:OT 2 (move to here)
*V:OT 3 (move to here)
ASM 420
*M/HOL 1996 (move to here)
XM 24
SM 77
SM 78
**DC/M/:AACC 1 (move from here)
XM 26-FB
*SMU 15 (move to here)
SMTU 6
SMTU 6/2
SENSM 13 (2:3 - 22)
SENSM 14
SENSM 15
**P3 16 (move from here)
SSM 242
SSM 243
SSM 244
SSM 245
SSM 246
ASM 421
ASM 421/2
**M/HOL 1996 (move from here)
**SMU 15 (move from here)
**V:OT 2 (move from here)
**V:OT 3 (move from here)
SM 79
……

WATSON, ANNA
……
SM 77
*SMU 15-BTS (move to here)
SSM 244-BTS
**SMU 15-BTS (move from here)
SENSM 16
……

WATSON-PARKER, MARY JANE
……
SM 78
*SMU 15-BTS (move to here)
SSM 242
SSM 244
SSM 245
ASM 421/2
**SMU 15-BTS (move from here)
SM 79
……

Yay!

[lettsmonster]

Thanks, Col_Fury. Things are starting to shape up!

I have one concern about IH2 455. I agree with you that it is currently much too early in the X chronologies. I think it needs to be moved a bit further in some chronologies. Here's an example of a clash:

The proposed move in the Cable chronology places IH2 455 now well past Christmas, as we can see based on the Cable crossover with Nate Grey in XM 25, which is after Christmas for Nate and thus Cable.

The proposed move in the Cannonball chronology still keeps IH2 455 before Christmas, since UX 342 is a Christmas Eve running into Christmas day story.

I do feel that IH2 455 fits into that time frame when Beast, Bishop, Gambit, Rogue, Joseph, and Trish Tilby are battling the Phalanx in the Shiar Imperium since none of these X-men are present at the mansion in IH2 455.

Thoughts?

[Col_Fury]

Good catch!

IH2 455 still needs to be before Operation: Zero Tolerance.

New placement suggestions are edited into the above.

Thanks!

[lettsmonster]

Only one more Christmas-related issue, Col_Fury....I promise!

Currently in Wolverine's chronology, we have CDAWN 1 placed before the Christmas issue of UX 342. However, just before CDAWN 1 in the Archangel chronology we have his appearance in XFOR 67, wherein Archangel chats with Cable about Caliban's illness. This is well after Christmas for Cable but not for Archangel in the Wolverine timeline.

I think CDAWN 1 was placed this early based on Wolverine telling Archangel they are neighbors, because of his residence on the Lower East Side. I haven't read far enough into 1997 yet to know how long Wolverine stayed there but I'm not really sure if this story belongs that early though.

What you think? Thanks!

[Col_Fury]

Wolverine stayed there up until shortly after the Operation: Zero Tolerance crossover, so that's fine. CDAWN 1 can happen pretty much anywhere (within this range) for Wolverine.

Publication order lines up better in Archangel's chronology, so I would suggest sticking with that and moving it for Wolverine to match. Moving CDAWN to before TREK/X:SC has it before IH2 454-455 (after the suggested moves are done), which pretty much lines up with publication order, so that works out nicely. Edited into the above.

Good eye, lettsmonster!

[lettsmonster]

One final concern for this time period when comparing the Spider-Man and Hulk Banner-less chronologies.
After your suggested moves we have this:

For Spider-Man, we have SENSM 14-15 ==> SMTU 6 ==> HFH 1

For Hulk Banner-less we have SMTU 6 ==> SENSM 14-15 ==> HFH 1

Any ideas on how to solve this? Thanks!

[Col_Fury]

Ack! You pointed that out earlier and I completely forgot about it.

It looks like SMTU 6 is placed too late for Spider-Man; it's about four months out of publication order for him, and I'm not seeing any references in the book for why that would be the case.

Edited into the above.

Thanks, lettsmonster!

[lettsmonster]

One more little hiccup I see in the J Jonah Jameson chronology, Col_Fury.

SMU 16 is placed too late for J Jonah Jameson, when compared with both Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson-Parker. To line up with these two, I think it should be placed between SM 79 and SENSM 18.

Sorry I keep throwing so much at you. Thanks for the time!