Patsy Walker 122-124

[Col_Fury]

I've re-read the two issues, and I'm still going to look through some other comics before I really weigh in on which way I think I might be leaning on this, but...

Avengers #144 is pretty darn specific. It references certain issues of Patsy's comic (recreates scenes, footnotes issues and events, etc.), it ties together that series with her various Marvel Universe appearances up to that point (FF@ 3, AA2 13-15, etc.), and sets her on a new status quo going forward.

Defenders #89 is fairly vague, and basically wants you to ignore a bunch of stuff.

I'm having difficulty reconciling the two versions recounted by Patsy in A 144 and DEF 89. She's telling it both times, yes, but they're pretty opposite versions of her past. Could Patsy have been a tomboy when she was a pre-teen (as recounted in DEF 89)? Sure, and then when she hit puberty she could have changed her mind about boys and stuff (that's the easy one). But DEF 89 is trying to say that all the stuff A 144 specifically references doesn't count, which flies in the face of A 144.

Just going off these two comics (one says yes it all counts, the other says well, maybe not), it's like I'm being asked to either trust Steve Englehart or David Anthony Kraft.

I still want to go through some later issues of Defenders, that late '90s Hellcat mini and the recent AKA Hellcat! series and see how specific they get. The fact that her mother wrote fictionalized comics about her could still be true AND the real-world comics about her could still count, depending on how some of those later stories treated things...

Also, since I had it handy, the OHOTMU Deluxe Edition (from '86) seems to take the DEF 89 revelation at face value. It says her mother wrote comics about her, she "felt very strange about her mother's fictionalized exploitation of her," she and her friends were used as inspiration for the comics characters, etc. In theory, of course, these in-universe fictionalizations could be an exaggerated version of what we saw in the real-world comics, and those comics are still 616. MAYBE.

More digging!

[Russ Chappell]

I don't see how the revelations in Defenders--or the interpretations in the Handbooks--present a problem. And in any case, Clive is addressing them. The comic stories that caused such angst for Patsy are NOT the stories that were published in the 40's, 50's and 60's that you and I can go into a comic shop and buy. Patsy's problems were caused by the sister publications of the Fantastic Four comic revealed in FF 10, or the Hulk comic that Johnny is reading in an early FF, or the Sub-Mariner comics that Johnny talks about reading as a kid in FF 4, or the golden age comics that Rick Jones talks about reading as a kid in the conclusion to the Kree-Skrull war, or the...well, you get it.

I don't see the problem with bringing in Patsy. In fact, it could solve problems with other characters.

[vanhornluke]

It's nice to see others finally agreeing with me. I've said for years that the Patsy Walker comics should be considered canonical, since they are explicitly referenced as so in Avengers (and the Avengers Index) and all the crossovers between the various humor characters (Patsy, Millie, Kathy, Linda Carter, etc.).

[Col_Fury]

My mistake; the Hellcat mini was from the early '00s, not the late '90s. Oops.

BUT! It's written by Steve Englehart.

It largely glosses over the "Patsy's past was fictionalized" stuff. Yes, comics were published about her and her friends, and yes, it was spearheaded by her mother, but it also recaps the recap in Avengers #144 (as you would suspect, Englehart wrote that comic too).

The more recent Patsy Walker, AKA Hellcat! series goes more into the angst of her mother sensationalizing her past, but mostly deals with the celebrity she no longer likes that came from it. It doesn't really get into continuity conundrums.

Also, later Defenders issues do reveal that Patsy's mother sold her soul in exchange for Patsy's, and we see her father show up for a few issues, but that's about it from what I can see.

So... yeah. I'm not seeing a problem with saying all the Patsy Walker comics count as 616.

Also, I'm not seeing any chronologies for either of Patsy's parents Dorothy & Joshua Walker.

[metaldragon]

On a related note, maybe keep an eye out for any appearances of/references to their housekeeper? Those would be early appearances for Dolly Donahue...

[StrayLamb]

I liked Bendis' comment from Hellcat in Defenders 10: "You know, there are stories that have actually happened to me that i have completely forgotten... but, for some reason, I remember every detail of Reed Richards and Sue Strorm's wedding."

[metaldragon]

Check out Avengers Annual 2000 and the Hellcat 3 issue miniseries that followed it. In one of those she says that their whole town was in, essentially, a tv “reality show” based on their real lives as well. Just to add layers of complication to her back story.