Punisher of the Opera (Avengers Halloween Special)

[loki]

Story 5

people attending the Opera in Paris in 1881 (alternate universe) including Christine in main story and FB's
a criminal named Raoul and his henchmen who have killed to promote Christine at the Opera (alternate universe) in main story and FB's
Punisher of 1881 (Castiglione, alternate universe) in main story and FB's
Maria Castiglione and her children (alternate universe) in FB's

Okay, a little more seriously than my previous comment in this thread: Why do we think this is not 616? I get that it's a tremendous coincidence to have a 1881 Castiglione family member see his wife and kids slain and adopt a costume reminiscent of the Punisher. However:

Maria isn't an uncommon name (or is it Marie in this story, rather than Maria?).
The Castigliones are from a part of the world where vendetta is a way of life, so having another member of the family go on a killing rampage to avenge lost loved ones isn't a big stretch; heck, it'd be more unlikley to discover that Frank Castle was the first member of his clan to enact revenge through slaughter.
I'm led to believe that the character never actually calls himself the Punisher, so that potential major stretching of coincidence goes out the window.
The big stretch is the similar costume and overall motif happening to someone visually similar looking decadeas/centuries prior to the modern version. But that didn't stop prevent the American Revolutionary War Captain America-lookalike from being confirmed in 616, nor push the Wild West Punisher-alike Man Named Frank into an alternate reality.

So while I know it'd be a weird coincidence for this to be in 616, what I'm asking is: what hard evidence do we have that it couldn't be?

[ShadZ]

Story 5

people attending the Opera in Paris in 1881 (alternate universe) including Christine in main story and FB's
a criminal named Raoul and his henchmen who have killed to promote Christine at the Opera (alternate universe) in main story and FB's
Punisher of 1881 (Castiglione, alternate universe) in main story and FB's
Maria Castiglione and her children (alternate universe) in FB's

Okay, a little more seriously than my previous comment in this thread: Why do we think this is not 616? I get that it's a tremendous coincidence to have a 1881 Castiglione family member see his wife and kids slain and adopt a costume reminiscent of the Punisher. However:

Maria isn't an uncommon name (or is it Marie in this story, rather than Maria?).
The Castigliones are from a part of the world where vendetta is a way of life, so having another member of the family go on a killing rampage to avenge lost loved ones isn't a big stretch; heck, it'd be more unlikley to discover that Frank Castle was the first member of his clan to enact revenge through slaughter.
I'm led to believe that the character never actually calls himself the Punisher, so that potential major stretching of coincidence goes out the window.
The big stretch is the similar costume and overall motif happening to someone visually similar looking decadeas/centuries prior to the modern version. But that didn't stop prevent the American Revolutionary War Captain America-lookalike from being confirmed in 616, nor push the Wild West Punisher-alike Man Named Frank into an alternate reality.

So while I know it'd be a weird coincidence for this to be in 616, what I'm asking is: what hard evidence do we have that it couldn't be?

I haven't read this, but I assume the first story is Satana introducing the other stories. What does she say in her introduction? Does she make it clear that all the other stories are non-616 (or "just stories", or whatever)? if so, there's your evidence (or lack thereof, if Satana does not clarify the nature of the stories).

ShadZ

[loki]

I haven't read this, but I assume the first story is Satana introducing the other stories. What does she say in her introduction? Does she make it clear that all the other stories are non-616 (or "just stories", or whatever)? if so, there's your evidence (or lack thereof, if Satana does not clarify the nature of the stories).

ShadZ

I haven't read it either, so I'm going on what I've gleaned from here and Appendix profiles. Hence why I am asking if there is evidence, since I've not got the issue to check. I agree that Satana introducing the stories as non-616 would be the evidence, IF that's what she does. Anyone know?

[Somebody]

I haven't read it either, so I'm going on what I've gleaned from here and Appendix profiles. Hence why I am asking if there is evidence, since I've not got the issue to check. I agree that Satana introducing the stories as non-616 would be the evidence, IF that's what she does. Anyone know?

The title page, with Satana (calling it a "story" is pushing it)

Avengers Halloween Special title page.png.jpg (120.39 KiB) Viewed 5594 times

[loki]

Thanks Somebody.

Looking at what is said, we've firstly got "tales of wonder and horror" - I don't think that would rule stuff out of 616, because you could get that same kind of phrasing to introduce "based on a true story" events.

The next bit however: "terrifying possibilities of our universe viewed through a cursed mirror." While not an explicit "this is alternate reality stuff" I think it definitely implies that. I guess this means Punisher of the Opera is possibly, even probably not 616, but it's not 100%.