Placement of M/TU 100

[Clive_Reston]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before (a quick search didn't reveal anything), but I just noticed it today.

The current order for Storm (and other X-Men) goes:
...
UX 143
UX 144
M/TU 100
M/TU 100/2
ROM 17
ROM 18
SW 37
SW 38
UX 145
UX 146
UX 147
UX 187-FB
SW 38-BTS
UX 148
UX 149
A@ 10
...

In UX 143, Kitty fights a monster and the Danger Room gets trashed. In UX 144, the X-Men are clearing out the debris. In M/TU 100, Storm, Colossus and Wolverine have a full-on Danger Room workout going on.

But: in SW 37 it's "weeks" since the monster's attack (and only one plant has survived in Storm's attic), and the rest of the team is still clearing out damaged parts from the Danger Room. In UX 145, Havok wants to work out in the Danger Room, but it's still trashed! And they're still repairing it in UX 149, and then in A@ 10. I suspect the easiest way to fix this is to move M/TU 100 back to just before UX 143; is there a reason that wouldn't work that I'm overlooking?

Bonus observation: Lois Lane's appearance in X 141 is listed already, but that sure looks like Jimmy Olsen sitting next to her on pg. 21...!

[Michael]

Also, Wolverine is in his blue and yellow costume, which he stopped wearing in X-Men 139.

[StrayLamb]

All of the other interacting comics from that period would have to be studied before attempting to move M/TU 100 based on internal evidence alone. You have to examine each character's individual chronologies, and the list keeps growing as they all interact. I've had situations where i've been surrounded by two dozen comics, trying to piece it all together.

UX143 is set on Christmas Eve. At this time, internal chronology within the X-Men comics was being presented concurrent with real time, while the other titles were more clued into "Marvel" time. M/TE 25 is Spider-Man vs Hulk at the Winter Olympics (late February), so this is after UX 143.

Just for instance, note the respective positions of DAZZ 2 & M/TU 100 for Professor X and Spider-Man. There are over twenty issues of Team-Up between DAZZ 2 and M/TU 100 which all have to be taken into account..

PROF X
---
UX 138
UX@ 4
UX 139
UX 140
X:L 1-FB
UX 141
UX 142
DAZZ 2
UX 143
W '95-FB
UX 144
M/TU 100
M/TU 100/2-BTS
ROM 17
S-W 37
---

SPIDER-MAN
---
DAZZ 1
DAZZ 2
PPTSS 42
FF 218
ASM 204
ASM 205
PPTSS 43
ASM 206
M/TU 79
M/TU 82
M/TU 83
M/TU 84
M/TU 85
S-W 26
DD 160
PPTSS 44
PPTSS 45
M/TE 25
ASM 207
PPTSS 46
S-W 28
S-W 29
ASM 208
M/TU 96
PPTSS 47
PPTSS 48
M/TU 98
ASM 209
M/TU@ 3
M/TU 126/2
M/TU 99
ASM@ 14
M/TU 100
M/TU 101
---

Also, there was another topic which touched on the placement of M/TU 100 here.. http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... f=2&t=5103

[Russ Chappell]

UX143 is set on Christmas Eve. At this time, internal chronology within the X-Men comics was being presented concurrent with real time, while the other titles were more clued into "Marvel" time. M/TE 25 is Spider-Man vs Hulk at the Winter Olympics (late February), so this is after UX 143.

You bring up a lot of good points, but I just wanted to mention this cautionary note. If we have multiple instances of the Danger Room going from destroyed to under repair to destroyed to up-and-running to under repair to destroyed (you get the point), well, something's not right.

I suppose we could go the familiar route of "the Danger Room was destroyed by some other unnamed events and stories," and if we have to, then so be it.

Here's my cautionary note: Story elements will trump calendar placement.

I prefer to use the calendar as a tool, to help guide placement, rather than twisting the stories, so they can be properly placed into a calendar. And yes, I know you didn't say that.

I'm just saying if a Christmas story needs to occur after a Winter Olympics story, I'm okay with that. I would prefer that stories fit nicely into a calendar, but Marvel's obviously not giving any thought to that when they tell the stories, and we should let the stories trump everything.

And again, the other comments you make about checking other character's chronologies are perfectly valid.

[StrayLamb]

Maybe Wolverine's costume was in the wash and they were using an interim Danger Room while the primary Danger Room was being repaired?

[Clive_Reston]

Here is an idle and potentially hazardous piece of speculation:

The "universe chronologies" the MCP has been compiling for Civil War-to-the-present have been very useful, in general. Might it make sense to try to construct something similar going backward from Civil War? (That would also make it a lot easier to rearrange individual chronologies if something like this comes up--like, on the face of it, M/TU 100 is clearly at some point before X 139.)

My personal mental hierarchy for constructing chronologies (and others' may be different!):

1) Does one event definitely appear to happen in a particular temporal relationship with another, just by simple logic?
2) When not in conflict with 1: in what order are issues numbered?
3) When in not in conflict with 1 or 2: in what order were stories first published?
4) When not in conflict with 1-3, and assuming that seasons, holidays, elections, etc. work differently in the Marvel universe than they do in ours: are there "temporal references" within the stories that make for a convenient chronological framework?
5) When not in conflict with 1-4: how can the order of stories be arranged to take place in the shortest possible amount of time?

[wolverine7230]

Here is an idle and potentially hazardous piece of speculation:

The "universe chronologies" the MCP has been compiling for Civil War-to-the-present have been very useful, in general. Might it make sense to try to construct something similar going backward from Civil War? (That would also make it a lot easier to rearrange individual chronologies if something like this comes up--like, on the face of it, M/TU 100 is clearly at some point before X 139.)

I've toyed around with doing this for a LONG time.
The amount of work is practically inconceivable, it'd take a whole team of people a lifetime...

EDIT: I exaggerate... But trust me when I say this would not be an easy task...

[StrayLamb]

The "universe chronologies" the MCP has been compiling for Civil War-to-the-present have been very useful, in general. Might it make sense to try to construct something similar going backward from Civil War? (That would also make it a lot easier to rearrange individual chronologies if something like this comes up--like, on the face of it, M/TU 100 is clearly at some point before X 139.)

Wolvie and i and several others have postulated this same thing, but as Wolvie points out, it will be a massive project. I have a personal complete chronology from FF 1 through to the end of the 80's, which mostly agrees with the MCP's individual character chronologies, but as i've been re-reading those issues, like you with M/TU 100, i've found a number of problematic placements along the way, many of which i've posted here as i've come across them.

My personal mental hierarchy for constructing chronologies (and others' may be different!):

1) Does one event definitely appear to happen in a particular temporal relationship with another, just by simple logic?
2) When not in conflict with 1: in what order are issues numbered?
3) When in not in conflict with 1 or 2: in what order were stories first published?
4) When not in conflict with 1-3, and assuming that seasons, holidays, elections, etc. work differently in the Marvel universe than they do in ours: are there "temporal references" within the stories that make for a convenient chronological framework?
5) When not in conflict with 1-4: how can the order of stories be arranged to take place in the shortest possible amount of time?

That's exactly the same criteria that i use. Although i do try to fit specific holidays into the chronology wherever possible, especially if they're plot-related.

The whole problem with attempting to move something like M/TU 100 is that it will cause a massive temporal disruption to the established timeline of many, if not most of the other major characters, with a roll-on effect to other secondary characters. Even Kang would think twice about that. I'm not saying it can't be done or shouldn't be attempted, just that if you move M/TU 100 back to before M/TU 79, you have to reshuffle virtually every other character's chronology as well, and that just may not be possible without creating even greater conundrums than M/TU 100's current placement already causes.

The easiest possible solution would be to pluck M/TU 100 out of synch with the other Team-Up issues, which if i read you right, is what you may be proposing. We would still need to check thru Spider-Man's appearances at the very least, and there are over thirty of them, to make sure moving M/TU 100 alone is viable. Is it possible for M/TU 100 to occur prior to M/TU 79, PPTSS 41 & ASM 203 for Spider-Man without creating further conundrums?

The next easiest solution is to ignore Wolverine's costume (and we have had to ignore costumes on many occasions) and move M/TU 100 to after Avengers Annual 10, but we would still have to make sure this is viable. This would also necessitate lifting M/TU 100 out of synch with the other Team-Up issues, but it would be closer to its original placing.

In case it helps, i've posted an excerpt from my master list for comics from around 1980-81 here.. http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... =2&t=14763

[Somebody]

*is almost certain this has been brought up before, but can't find the damn discussion...*

You bring up a lot of good points, but I just wanted to mention this cautionary note. If we have multiple instances of the Danger Room going from destroyed to under repair to destroyed to up-and-running to under repair to destroyed (you get the point), well, something's not right.

I suppose we could go the familiar route of "the Danger Room was destroyed by some other unnamed events and stories," and if we have to, then so be it.

Here's my cautionary note: Story elements will trump calendar placement.

I prefer to use the calendar as a tool, to help guide placement, rather than twisting the stories, so they can be properly placed into a calendar. And yes, I know you didn't say that.

I'm just saying if a Christmas story needs to occur after a Winter Olympics story, I'm okay with that. I would prefer that stories fit nicely into a calendar, but Marvel's obviously not giving any thought to that when they tell the stories, and we should let the stories trump everything.

Thing is, while that's absolutely a fair perspective to take, and one I largely agree with... the MCP is inconsistent in this, largely because we still use George Olshevsky's chronologies as a basis for a huge chunk of MU history, and he was perfectly willing to declare story elements unimportant and even move stories out of order on the basis of calendar placement.

[StrayLamb]

It looks like we can make this work if we pluck M/TU 100 out from between M/TU 99 & M/TU 101. This is by no means unprecedented, as the M/TU sequence is already 72-78, 80-81, 90, 86-89, 91-95, 79, 82-85, 96-98, @3, 126/2, 99-101.

Our considerations need to be Wolverine's costume and the operative Danger Room, as already mentioned, plus Ben and Alicia's relationship (always topsy turvy), and for Spider-Man this has to be after M/TU 88, and probably not too long after that issue.

The following placement seems to work for all of the characters involved without the necessity of moving whole blocks of issues, which won't work anyway..

SPIDER-MAN
---
M/TU 95
M/TU 100
CA 250
---

MISTER FANTASTIC
---
M/TIO 60
UX 135
M/TIO 63-BTS
M/TU 100
M/TIO 64
---

INVISIBLE GIRL
---
FF@ 14
MM 15
NO4 35
M/TU 100
M/TIO 69
---

ALICIA MASTERS
---
M/TIO 63
M/TU 100
M/TIO 64
---

THING II
---
M/TIO 63
M/TU 100
M/TIO 64
---

HUMAN TORCH II
---
FF@ 14
M/TU 100
M/TIO 68
---

PROFESSOR X
---
UX@ 4
M/TU 100
UX 139
---

COLOSSUS
---
UX@ 4
M/TU 100
UX 139
---

WOLVERINE
---
UX@ 4
M/TU 100
UX 139
---

STORM
---
UX@ 4
M/TU 100
UX 139
---

This would make the following M/TU sequence.. 72-78, 80-81, 90, 86-89, 91-95, 100, 79, 82-85, 96-98, @3, 126/2, 99, 100/2, 101.

[Russ Chappell]

[Olshevsky] was perfectly willing to declare story elements unimportant and even move stories out of order on the basis of calendar placement.

While I'm not aware of Olshevsky declaring story elements unimportant, I would issue a special dispensation to his M/TU chronologies. The listings here at the MCP are based on the "Official" Marvel Index, which implies it's the way Marvel considers it. And while we've overruled the Index before, when they've clearly made a mistake, or subsequent stories have rendered them inoperable, that's not the case here. These were not mistakes; they were intentional reshufflings by Olshevsky, with Marvel's blessing.

We have reshuffled books ourselves, but only when we've had no other choice, and when doing so allowed everything else to "snap into place."

[Clive_Reston]

It looks like we can make this work if we pluck M/TU 100 out from between M/TU 99 & M/TU 101. This is by no means unprecedented, as the M/TU sequence is already 72-78, 80-81, 90, 86-89, 91-95, 79, 82-85, 96-98, @3, 126/2, 99-101.

StrayLamb, I am always impressed by your attention to precision! Thank you!

The very late placement of M/TU 79 (and consequently 82-85) is a notable example of Olshevsky et al. making the "calendar" work at the expense of elements that are clearly in the story. Peter has been hanging out at Cissy Ironwood's place (so this really should be before M/TU@ 2); he's also not just going to a party at the Bugle but getting a bonus check from J. Jonah Jameson (so this really should be before ASM 193, in which JJJ fires him).

(The explanation in the Official Marvel Index to Marvel Team-Up #4: "Considering that at the time this story takes place, Peter Parker has been fired from the Daily Bugle and is working for the Daily Globe, it is quite odd that Jameson allows Peter to attend the Bugle's Christmas party, and even more unusual that he sent Peter a $10 Christmas bonus. Most likely, Jameson believes that he fired Peter because of Jonas Harrow's variator-beam manipulations and feels guilty. It is clear that he wants Peter back on staff, but he does not actually rehire Peter until after the Globe folds, in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #210." I mean, yes, it is the "official" explanation, but srsly?)

There's also one amusing bit of circumstantial evidence that's relevant here: the exhibition going on at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in M/TU 79 (and the reason it's unusually crowded) is strongly implied to be "Treasures of Tutankhamun"--which also figures heavily in ASM 193, along with "Splendor of Dresden," an exhibit which ran concurrently with it at the real-world Met!

[StrayLamb]

It should also be noted that M/TU 100 was scripted by Uncanny X-Men writer Chris Claremont, not series (semi-)regular Tom De Falco, and is a stand-alone story. M/TU 100 is cover dated December 1980, UX 139 is cover dated November 1980. Considering the situation with Wolverine's costume and the Danger Room, it seems highly likely that Claremont intended M/TU 100 to occur prior to the events of UX 139, but the story was held over for the 100th issue of Team-Up. Speculation certainly, but probably more reasonable than believing that Claremont didn't know what was going on with own X-Men.

[Col_Fury]

It should also be noted that M/TU 100 was scripted by Uncanny X-Men writer Chris Claremont, not series (semi-)regular Tom De Falco, and is a stand-alone story. M/TU 100 is cover dated December 1976, UX 139 is cover dated November 1976. Considering the situation with Wolverine's costume and the Danger Room, it seems highly likely that Claremont intended M/TU 100 to occur prior to the events of UX 139, but the story was held over for the 100th issue of Team-Up. Speculation certainly, but probably more reasonable than believing that Claremont didn't know what was going on with own X-Men.

M/TU 100 was published the same month as X 140. Given Wolverine's costume and the Danger Room's situation (and that there's no Kitty in M/TU 100), in theory, M/TU 100 makes sense if it happens before X 139. And it lines up better with publication order.

The very late placement of M/TU 79 (and consequently 82-85) is a notable example of Olshevsky et al. making the "calendar" work at the expense of elements that are clearly in the story. Peter has been hanging out at Cissy Ironwood's place (so this really should be before M/TU@ 2); he's also not just going to a party at the Bugle but getting a bonus check from J. Jonah Jameson (so this really should be before ASM 193, in which JJJ fires him).

(The explanation in the Official Marvel Index to Marvel Team-Up #4: "Considering that at the time this story takes place, Peter Parker has been fired from the Daily Bugle and is working for the Daily Globe, it is quite odd that Jameson allows Peter to attend the Bugle's Christmas party, and even more unusual that he sent Peter a $10 Christmas bonus. Most likely, Jameson believes that he fired Peter because of Jonas Harrow's variator-beam manipulations and feels guilty. It is clear that he wants Peter back on staff, but he does not actually rehire Peter until after the Globe folds, in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #210." I mean, yes, it is the "official" explanation, but srsly?)

There's also one amusing bit of circumstantial evidence that's relevant here: the exhibition going on at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in M/TU 79 (and the reason it's unusually crowded) is strongly implied to be "Treasures of Tutankhamun"--which also figures heavily in ASM 193, along with "Splendor of Dresden," an exhibit which ran concurrently with it at the real-world Met!

M/TU 79 was published three months before ASM 193 (M/TU@ 2 came out the same month as ASM 199 & M/TU 88). In theory, it would make sense if M/TU 79 & ASM 193 happened roughly around the same time, but M/TU 79 before ASM 193 for the reason cited. Also, M/TU 79 is currently a year and a half out of publication order (between ASM 206-207) and M/TU@ 2 is currently between ASM 186-187, a year out of publication order in the other direction.

Publication order would tell us M/TU 79 -> ASM 193 -> M/TU@ 2 for Spider-Man.

But we currently have M/TU@ 2 -> ASM 193 -> M/TU 79 for Spider-Man.

Also for Cissy, a footnote says that M/TU 90 happens before M/TU@ 2 (M/TU@ 2 & M/TU 88 came out the same month). That's the way we have it, but:

IRONWOOD, CISSY
M/TU 80 (Peter & Cissy dating)
M/TU 81 (first full name given as Priscilla)
X 123-BTS
M/TU 90 (Peter & Cissy dating)
M/TU@ 2 (Cissy's father dies)
M/TU 79-BTS (Peter & Cissy "spending time together" *wink*)

M/TU 90 is Cissy's last appearance for decades, so why the footnote unless Peter & Cissy's relationship ends with M/TU@ 2? In theory, shouldn't M/TU 79 be at least before M/TU@ 2?

(I say "in theory" because I haven't fully re-read any of these recently)