Nick Fury, SHIELD & the sliding timescale

[Nausiated]

To clarify Fury's CIA status.... Just checked Lost Generation #10. That story Fury is with the CIA. At the end of that story, he reports back to his superiors in the government. At the end of the meeting, one of the government men (all of them are in shadow) suggests that Fury should be the candidate for Project: SHIELD.

My speculation on this is that for whatever reasons, "covert" SHIELD was shut down at the end of the 60s. Then with the revival of superhumans and increased concern of a potential Skrull invasion prompted the idea of SHIELD to be reactivated. This time as a public organization.

It was laid out in the Fury one-shot from 1991 (I think?) Fury wasn't even tapped to be the first director of modern-day SHIELD, that was Rick Stoner who was later assassinated leading to Fury taking over.

History of the Marvel Universe #2 that's coming out tomorrow is going through this era so hopefully, it can provide some answers and clarifications.

[dimadick]

It was laid out in the Fury one-shot from 1991 (I think?) Fury wasn't even tapped to be the first director of modern-day SHIELD, that was Rick Stoner who was later assassinated leading to Fury taking over.

Rick Stoner's history has some peculiarities of its own. See here: http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/ston ... shield.htm

*1) In 1944, Stoner already holds the rank of a Colonel in the United States Army, and works for Army Intelligence. Stoner gets into an argument with Nick Fury, who punched him out. Fury is imprisoned for striking a superior officer, but President Franklin Delano Roosevelt intervenes to have Fury released.

*2) Following World War II, Stoner joins the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and has several unrecorded cases.

*3) The United States and Canada co-operate in an effort to retrieve the Weapon Alpha/Guardian armor which has been stolen by the Hydra organization. The President of the United States assigns the case to Stoner, who gets partnered up with Wolverine/Logan of the Canadian Special Services.

*4) Following the success of the mission, the President and other world leaders start working on organizing SHIELD. Presumably to counter Hydra. Anthony "Tony" Stark serves as the President's advisor in organizing SHIELD, and helps him choose a leader for the organization. Stark helps narrow the candidate list to two persons (Stoner and Fury). The President and Stark choose Fury, because of his recent success against Hydra.

*5) Tony Stark meets with Stoner to inform him of his promotion, and to discuss funding issues and a recruitment policy for agents.

*6) After training his first generation of agents, Stoner presents them to Tony Stark. Who seemingly acts as Stoner's liaison to the President.

*7) Stoner rejects job applications from Timothy "Dum-Dum" Dugan, Gabriel Jones, and Eric Koenig, because he holds a grudge against Fury and his associates since World War II.

*8) Tony Stark informs Stoner that Hydra is trying to gain a foothold in the United States. Stark orders Stoner to crush Hydra.

*9) Stoner shuts down a number of Hydra bases, and arrests surviving Hydra agents. He finds clues hinting at a connection between Hydra and the Roxxon Oil Corporation, but chooses not to inform anyone else of this apparent conspiracy.

*10) Tony Stark demonstrates SHIELD's newest technological achievements to Stoner. They include the original helicarrier and flying cars. They were co-designed by Stark and his two inventor associates, Mr. Fantastic/Reed Richards and Forge. Stark introduces Stoner to another man working on these projects, Jake Fury. Stoner and Jake bond over their mutual dislike of Nick Fury.

*11) Tony Stark orders Stoner to locate a traitor in the ranks of SHIELD. Stoner infiltrates a tanker owned by Roxxon Oil, and discovers further evidence of a connection between Hydra and Roxxon. He discovers that the traitor in SHIELD's ranks is Jake Fury, but is seriously wounded before managing to inform anyone else.

*12) A mortally wounded Stoner breaks into Tony Stark's residence, but dies before managing to inform Stark of the conspiracy. With his dying breath, Stoner warns Stark to quit drinking alcohol before the habit causes his death. (Stoner had a lifelong hatred of booze, tobacco, and nearly every addictive substance.)

*13) Hydra successfully destroys the helicarrier. In the aftermath of the disaster, Tony Stark chooses Nick Fury to replace the deceased Stoner.

[Nausiated]

Warning Here Be Spoilers

So History of the Marvel Universe #2 came out today. On the plus side, they finally explained away the in continuity problems caused by Modern Age characters that were involved in World War II and the Vietnam War in stories from the 60s (So Reed Richards/Ben Grimm's involvement in World War II. Iron Man's/James Rhodes/Frank Castle's Vietnam activities etc. etc.) They've been now been retroactively placed on a new fictional war called the Sai-Cong War an East Asian country (first appearing in Avengers #5) that now takes place in the nebulous "Pre-Modern Age" that characters born before Fantastic Four #1 lived their lives in.

On the other hand, SHIELD's origins have gotten stickier (maybe next issue will give more clarification since it looks like it'll be covering the Marvel's 60s era of publication).

Anyway, Page 18 places the formation of SHIELD (with Nick Fury running the show) as happening after the death of Richard and Mary Parker and before the formation of the Pride. The panels depict Fury looking at a SHIELD badge he is holding in his hand then looking out the window of a SHIELD helicarrier that is part of a fleet of three of similar crafts.

This creates yet MORE problems because it negates the 60s era SHIELD that has been detailed in Original Sins, Winter Soldier, and SHIELD 50th. It also negates the original Strange Tales and Fury #1 stories. What a !@#$ing mess.

See here's the thing about placing it after Richard and Mary Parker. That places the formation of SHIELD into the nebulous "pre-modern age" a part of the sliding timescale that applies to the lives of everyone born before Fantastic Four #1 that have a human life span.

According to the Spider-Man mythos, Richard and Mary Parker went on their final mission when their son Peter was still an infant (they never specifically state what age, but baby Pete has hair and can crawl. All the stories that depict him as on the day his parents die don't have him walking or talking.... so that'd put him at 6 to 12 months old. Civil War #2 says Peter was 15 when he first became Spider-Man and that was within the first year following Fantastic Four #1.... So based on that, according to History of the Marvel Universe #2, SHIELD was formed no later than 15 years prior to the birth of the Fantastic Four.

The appendix in the back goes on to say...

Nick Fury's work as a CIA operative garnered the attention of a group of government officials who in the process of creating Project: SHIELD... was supported by countless business people and politcians.

It then goes on to say this about weapons technology made for SHIELD was

... largely supplied by industrialist Howard Stark.

About Nick Fury it says...

Fury was offered -- and accepted -- the directorial position within the new organization, only answering to its executive council.

It then references the Project SHIELD section from M:LG #10 and then says that "Fury's first depiction with the organization" was Strange Tales #135. It doesn't say that was SHIELD's first appearance, just it's first depiction...

My Speculation/Theory:

I think the idea of a "Covert" version of SHIELD existing in the 60s still works. My thoughts are that this "public" version of SHIELD was in development for the 15 years prior to the birth of the Fantastic Four and that the project was started by Howard Stark prior to his death (OR WAS IT!?!) in a car accident and eventually Tony picked up the ball and finished what his father started, which could explain why SHIELD didn't reveal itself to the public until after the Fantastic Four first appeared. The scene in Fury #1 showing Reed Richards, Forge and other modern age people helping build SHIELD tech could be interpreted as them helping Stark (who remember, was a total alcoholic at this point) meet the final deadlines for the public unveiling. Then you've got Fantastic Four #21 with Fury still saying his part of the CIA. Perhaps until SHIELD was fully operational Fury still worked with the CIA and kept the existence of SHIELD a secret. Since FF #21 takes place before the "construction" of SHIELD in Fury #1, that would make sense.

[Nausiated]

Some further speculation about Rick Stoner being the Director of SHIELD before Nick Fury....

Working with the theory I posted above perhaps Fury was originally tapped for SHIELD's director. However, after the death of Howard Stark, someone decided that Stoner was a better leader over Fury and replaced him. Politics and business being what it is, I could see the powers-that-be getting changing over the 15 years it took for public SHIELD to get operational and the new heads of the project changing their mind on who should leave. Fury #1 and the original Strange Tales stories depict Tony Stark has a lot of clout in the decision makings at SHIELD as well. I could see Howard Stark having the same sort of power when he was in charge of things. Of course Howard Stark would want Fury in charge because Fury once saved his life during World War II (Circa Captain America Annual #9). However, keeping in mind that the Tony Stark who founded SHIELD was a drunk and an arrogant SOB I could see him arbitrarily switching Fury with Stoner for some dumb reason since he doesn't have the same personal connection with Fury that his father did. I would suspect that Tony, at the time, had no idea how tight his father was with Fury given the secretive nature of the Brotherhood of SHIELD and Fury's job as the "Man on the Wall" and so on, or -- at the very least -- the soused up Tony Stark just didn't care. I mean the guy was a real prick back in those days.

[dimadick]

My thoughts are that this "public" version of SHIELD was in development for the 15 years prior to the birth of the Fantastic Four and that the project was started by Howard Stark prior to his death (OR WAS IT!?!) in a car accident

There is contradictory information on Howard's death.

1) In "Iron Man" #288 (January, 1993), Howard and Maria are depicted dying in a traffic accident.

2) In "Iron Man: The Iron Age" #1 (August, 1998), the accident is retconned to a murder, as the brakes of the vehicle were sabotaged. The murder was reportedly arranged by rival company "Republic Oil and Natural Gus", which was later renamed to "Roxxon ".

*3) In "Citizen V and the V-Battalion" #1 (June, 2001), it is instead hinted that the murder was arranged by the V-Battalion.

*4) In "S.H.I.E.L.D." #5 (February, 2011), Howard Stark seems aware that the Brotherhood of the Shield would eventually fake his death in a car accident. With the implication being that Howard was still alive after his supposed death and Tony Stark's take over of the family company.

[Col_Fury]

AND NOW IT CAN BE TOLD

The art pages in History aren't STRICTLY chronological. They're more "all this happened in a generally close time frame," to give artist Javier Rodriguez room to design the pages. And the annotations in the back give more background information.

Mary and Richard Parker were CIA agents working under Nick Fury as has always been the case. However, at this same time, Fury was working with Project: SHIELD as revealed in the Lost Generation series (and started doing so sometime after 1959, thanks to the Avengers 1959 mini, and likely in real-time 1961 thanks to the Secret Warriors series. Fury's appearance in Lost Generation #10 was roughly in the '80s, so he's been with the organization for a while but before his promotion, given the closing scene). So, from the early real-time '60s, Fury is publicly with the CIA and covertly with Project: SHIELD for an always growing amount of time as the sliding timescale's start keeps moving into the future (which is now after 9/11). And yes, there were flying cars and Helicarriers at this point, presumably created by Howard Stark. After the Parkers' death (which is always moving up to keep with the sliding timescale's start, because Peter is already born by this point), Fury was promoted within Project: SHIELD.

What is left unrevealed is how/why Fury left Project: SHIELD, and how/why Project: SHIELD turned into just SHIELD in the modern era.

In the modern era, Rick Stoner was made the first public director of SHIELD, Tony Stark and Forge refined the Helicarrier, Fury was still with the CIA in FF 21, then re-joined the new SHIELD in ST 135 after Stoner's death.

As a member of the research team that helped work on this series, I can say this is editorial's current view on things.

My personal theory is the Sin-Cong conflict was about as messy as the Vietnam conflict. Project: SHIELD's handling of their involvement was possibly deemed inept and the organization was taken down for re-tooling. Fury possibly left during this time as a result. Maybe he was let go? Maybe he resigned in disgust? I dunno, it's just a theory.

Also, how brilliant is it that we now have this Sin-Cong conflict to explain away Reed and Ben's wartime exploits? And Punisher's? And Xavier's? And etc.? I love it.

-edit-

Ah, speaking of Howard Stark, thanks to SHIELD2 6, we know he was involved in Project: SHIELD's creation. That's very possibly Howard Stark in shadows (the guy holding the folder) on the last page of Lost Generation #10.

[Leoparis]

Yes, the use of Sin-Cong from Avengers 18 is a great idea. A pity it was spelled Sian-Cong in the story. Please someone get it corrected for the collection.

Otherwise I tend to agree with Nausiated. Mark Waid in Invisible Woman makes SHIELD extant around FF 21-22, thus making Fury "I'm in the CIA" a cover story. So there was no need to have Fury in the CIA for the Parker agents.

Waid also puts Dr Strange in the 60s so why not SHIELD? If stories can be put in their original era, it's the best solution. http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... 453#p57985

I hope Waid keeps Frankenstein 73 in 1973 rather than in the modern era. I think it's needed for Elsa Bloodstone but probably not a detail that will make it. Didn't a handbook already validate this anyway?

The thing with Strange is that he has met colleagues from his medical days in the modern era, I remember a Madeleine from the Claremont era. How can he have contemporaries if he stopped being a doctor 60 or 70 years ago? That makes Wong and Mordo long-lived, not a big problem, but what about Victoria Bentley?

Also it would have been better if Strange was depicted in History of the MU with his blue cape and first amulet. He was still in this costume in the modern era in FF 27, JIM 108, ASM annual 1.

[Nausiated]

Also, how brilliant is it that we now have this Sin-Cong conflict to explain away Reed and Ben's wartime exploits? And Punisher's? And Xavier's? And etc.? I love it.

This was a masterstroke for sure.
I was hoping they were going to do something like this. It made the most sense to come up with a completely fictional conflict that kind of fit all of those anachronistic military enlistments. I mean with Xavier and Richards they gave themselves some breathing room to come up with solutions with the various de-aging the characters have experienced over the years, but the Punisher and James Rhodes were getting long in the tooth having Vietnam tacked on them without an explanation.

Sorry to get off-topic for a moment but I'm having I am becoming struck with the speculation stick.

I guess at this point we can assume that the "Reed Richards" seen in Sgt. Fury #4 and the Ben Grimm seen in Captain Savage #7 were not the characters but relatives (much like how they retooled Thaddus Ross' World War II and Korean War history to relatives). I'd like to think the Richards in Sgt. Fury was actually John Richards who was seen in Marvel Knights: 4 #4. Maybe Marvel can do one of those sneaky things where it turns out that John Richards middle name is Reed, explaining why he introduces himself as Reed Richards in that issue (I've noticed they've resolved conflicting first names for characters by making one name their first and the second their middle name, seems like an appropriate time to do that.)

Still, I wonder how this Sin-Cong affects The 'Nam series? Assuming that the entire series all takes place on Earth-616 are we to assume that the entire series takes place in the Sin-Cong War, or only the Punisher realted issues?

[Nausiated]

The thing with Strange is that he has met colleagues from his medical days in the modern era, I remember a Madeleine from the Claremont era. How can he have contemporaries if he stopped being a doctor 60 or 70 years ago? That makes Wong and Mordo long-lived, not a big problem, but what about Victoria Bentley?
Also it would have been better if Strange was depicted in History of the MU with his blue cape and first amulet. He was still in this costume in the modern era in FF 27, JIM 108, ASM annual 1.

I think with the "colleagues", I think a simpler workaround is that even though Doctor Strange stopped practicing medicine perhaps he continued providing his expert advice as a consultant. He's been shown to do that every now and again, so the idea is not outlandish. It's not like he stopped using his credentials as a doctor after he became the Sorcerer Supreme. There have also been a lot of stories where Strange is approached by doctors who need medical advice who he had not met previously or only known by reputation.

As for the cape/amulet thing, I wouldn't be surprised if this was artistic license and narrative pacing.

[Nausiated]

There is contradictory information on Howard's death.

1) In "Iron Man" #288 (January, 1993), Howard and Maria are depicted dying in a traffic accident.

2) In "Iron Man: The Iron Age" #1 (August, 1998), the accident is retconned to a murder, as the brakes of the vehicle were sabotaged. The murder was reportedly arranged by rival company "Republic Oil and Natural Gus", which was later renamed to "Roxxon ".

*3) In "Citizen V and the V-Battalion" #1 (June, 2001), it is instead hinted that the murder was arranged by the V-Battalion.

*4) In "S.H.I.E.L.D." #5 (February, 2011), Howard Stark seems aware that the Brotherhood of the Shield would eventually fake his death in a car accident. With the implication being that Howard was still alive after his supposed death and Tony Stark's take over of the family company.

I am aware of all of this as well. My take on the many accounts of Howard Stark's demise is the simple act of obfuscation, especially when you consider his involvement with both the Brotherhood of the Shield and with the Man on the Wall. Stark operated in a lot of exclusive and secretive circles. All of the different reasons provided, the traffic accident, the faulty breaks, and the assassination attempt was all done to make an investigation into the truth impossible. Think about it, the Brotherhood would have the resources to not only fake Howard Stark's death but also create a number of possible false narratives to draw attention away from the Brotherhood pulling Howard Stark out from the public eye.

Them "extracting" Howard makes a lot of sense at the time when you consider his descent into alcoholism later on in his life. A drunk like the man Howard Stark became would have been seen as a security risk to someone like the Brotherhood.

I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel does a story sometime in the future that reveals that Howard Stark is still alive and has been operating behind the scenes all this time.

[Col_Fury]

I'm fairly certain the handbooks declared Maj. Richards and Lt. Grimm relatives to Reed and Ben, but I can't find the entry at the moment. In any case, though, History #2 outright says Reed and Ben weren't active in WWII, but rather this Sin-Cong conflict.

As for The 'Nam, it's not just that Frank appears in some The 'Nam issues, but Sgt. "Iceman" Phillips (a The 'Nam regular) also appears in PWJ 52-53 and PWZ 27-30. Since Phillips would have to be a contemporary of Castle, it would seem that The 'Nam took place during this Sin-Cong conflict.

[StrayLamb]

[Nausiated]

I'm fairly certain the handbooks declared Maj. Richards and Lt. Grimm relatives to Reed and Ben, but I can't find the entry at the moment. In any case, though, History #2 outright says Reed and Ben weren't active in WWII, but rather this Sin-Cong conflict.

Yeah, History #2 places Reed and Ben's military service as being in the Sin-Cong Conflict.
As for past handbooks, as far as I can recall, the contemporary ones (published 2004 onwards) don't mention Reed's military service. They do mention that Ben was in the airforce and saw combat but it generalized his time and didn't reference any specific conflict. I can kind of understand why since the only time Reed's military service was ever mentioned was in the early FF stories from the 60s (The fan mail story in FF #11, FF #21, the aforementioned Sgt. Fury issue. Also, a fact page in FF Annual #1 references that it was Reed's military service that caused him to prematurely grey after seeing the horrors of war) Since then most writers only focused on Reed's education and career as a scientist. It seemed to me that they were choosing to ignore his military record in favor of making him a globe-trotting scientist, I'm glad they brought it back in a way that can't be dismissed.

As for The 'Nam, it's not just that Frank appears in some The 'Nam issues, but Sgt. "Iceman" Phillips (a The 'Nam regular) also appears in PWJ 52-53 and PWZ 27-30. Since Phillips would have to be a contemporary of Castle, it would seem that The 'Nam took place during this Sin-Cong conflict.

I bet Larry Hama would be happy to hear his realistic and very personal Vietnam War tale being retconned to a made-up Marvel Universe war

Although I suppose that is the cleanest way to do it unless without doing some editorial handstands to explain it otherwise.

[loki]

Neither Sin Cong nor Siancong is strictly the correct spelling. Both are simply slightly varying attempts to render a language properly written using logograms into our alphabet based purely on how it sounds to Western ears. c.f. Peking vs Beijing.

[Col_Fury]

Larry Hama is one of my comic book heroes.