Hulk chronology for early Defenders adventures

[Leoparis]

Current chronology and notes:

IH2 138 seashore -> upstate hospital Sandman
SUB 34 from sea San Pablo island
SUB 35 -> Caribbean island
IH2 139 May 71 seashore -> forest -> Highway 35 north of city, Hudson? river, Leader
break
A 88 Boulder Dam Colorado
IH2 140 Jarella
IH2 141 sees a plane carrying Betty -> town -> city, Doc Samson
FF 111 Banner in NY apartment
FF 112
FF 113
IH2 142 Aug 71 riverboat to NY Statue of Liberty Valkyrie
IH2 143 NY -> Latveria
IH2 144 (12)-FB
IH2 144 Latveria
**S&L 3 Banner in his southwest bunker, bunker in HMAG 15
**M/FEA 1 (4:2 - 16) New England Point Promontory
LASTDEF 5 (10 - 11:2)-FB
M/FEA 1 (17:1)
LASTDEF 5 (11:3)-FB
M/FEA 1 (17:2)
LASTDEF 5 (11:4 - 11:6)-FB
M/FEA 1 (17:3 - 17:8)
LASTDEF 5 (12)-FB
M/FEA 1 (18 - 19)
A 100 Jun 72 England
IH2 145 Southern coast of Europe -> Sahara -> orbit -> Egypt
IH2 146 Egypt desert -> Israel
IH2 147 plane arrives from Tel-Aviv
IH2 147/2
IH2 148 (1 - 15) Southwest Jarella
IH2 154-FB Pym
IH2 148 (16 - 22) Southwest
IH2 149
IH2 150 desert
IH2 151 desert -> Washington
break
IH2 152 one week later, Nevada desert -> NY trial
IH2 153 FF DD Spidey Stark Avengers (from Av 101) -> Bronx
IH2 154 Long Island Ant-Man, Chameleon, Hydra
IH2 155 microverse
IH2 156 microverse Jarella
**M/FEA 2 upstate forests -> Rutland, Vermont
several weeks break
**M/FEA 3 Ross Jim Wilson NY
**DEF 1 NY
**IH2 157 Hulk lost Jarella, New Jersey turnpike Leader Rhino
IH2 158 offworld Counter-Earth
IH2 159 desert Abomination
IH2 160 traveler's cheques pinned -> Niagara Falls Spad McCracken
break
**DEF 2 "two months" since 1, Hulk just "lost Jarella" (in H 156) -> Himalaya
**DEF 3 Dec 72
**DEF 4 (1 - 18:3) British Isles
**A 157-FB
**DEF 4 (18:4 - 20)
break
DEF 5 Promontory Point
**FF 133 southwest
IH2 161 (1 - 17) Canada

Detailed Notes

In Sub-Mariner 34 the Hulk arrives from the sea. Since he was in the sea at the end of IH2 138, it's perfect. In Sub 35 the Hulk is flown to another Caribbean island and on IH2 139 he has reached the continental seashore.

At the end of 139 the Hulk is heading north. In his next appearance in Avengers 88 he's in Boulder Dam, so there is a break where to fit stories.
141 ends in a metropolis. In FF 111 Banner is seen dressed from the window of a flat as if he's living in NY. Maybe it takes place in the middle of IH 142 when the Hulk is lionized?

In 142 the Hulk is on the Statue of Liberty. In a flashback he's shown to have reached the island in a barge.

In 143 he's shipped to Latveria. He's still there in 144. And in 145 he's reached the southern coast of Europe.

S&L 3 takes place in his southwest bunker under a lake from the first Hulk series, last seen in Captain Marvel 20-21, which gets submerged. Yet later in HMAG 15, it's not submerged. This story is clearly in the wrong place.

Marvel Feature 1 takes place in New England (while the Hulk is in Europe between 145 & 145).

Avengers 100 where the Hulk is in Britain, is an acceptable fit between 144 & 145. In 143 the military thought they had destroyed the Hulk. This is still the case by the beginning of 144. By 145 they're planning new weapons to destroy him. So either the Hulk's rampage in Eastern Europe at the end of 143 has reached the ears of the US military, either he has been spotted leaving Latveria at the end of 144, or he was reported by the Avengers in Hulk 100. Since Captain America says he had the Hulk summoned to England (how?) the Hulk must have been known to be alive before. There is possibly a longer stay in Europe and anyway a good spot to fit stories of the Hulk in Europe.

In 145 the Hulk swims across the Mediterranean from the southern coast of Europe (mountains are seen before he reaches the sea; the Northern and Southern Apennins are close to the sea but depending on how much time passes between these panels, it could be the Alps or the Pyrenees), reaches the Sahara desert or Egyptian desert and then Israel in 146. He takes a plane at Tel-Aviv which arrives in 147 in the American Southwest. Cured from the Hulk, he vacations briefly on the West Coast then is brought back to the Southwest where he turns into the Hulk to save Jarella from an assassin. The Hulk is in the desert until 151 where he's brought to Washington. At the start of 152, said to take place "one week later", he's back in Nevada. But he's captured and brought to New York for trial. DD, the FF, Stark, Spider-Man and the Avengers show up in 153. Fleeing, the Hulk goes to the Bronx. In 154 he's in Long Island looking for a way in Pym's lab to find Jarella. He's in the microverse in 155 and finds Jarella in 156.

Marvel Feature 2 & 3 and Defenders 1 are placed after 156. In Marvel Feature 2 the Hulk takes a train from upstate forests to NY then as Banner a bus to Rutland, Vermont. The Hulk only appears in the later part of M Feature 3, several weeks take place before his appearance. General Ross and Jim Wilson are in NY as well.

IH 157 starts with the Hulk thinking about Jarella and seems to take place right after 156. Then the Hulk and Rhino wind up on Counter Earth in 158 and they return in 159 in the desert.
In 160 the Hulk heads for Niagara Falls which Banner reaches by plane.

Def 2-4 are placed here. Def 2 occurs "two months" after Def 1 and the Hulk says he "lost Jarella" (in 156). They go to the Himalayas and then to the British Isles.
Def 5 takes place at Promontory Point, New England.

Then we have FF 133 where the Hulk is in the Southwest.

In Hulk 161 he's in Canada.


Sorting Out the Chronology

If Def 2 occurs shortly after H 156, the earlier appearances of the Defenders need to move up in the chronology in the available breaks.
Since the Hulk was moving north in 139 let's say he reached New England for M/FEA 1.
In IH 142 there is no indication that it follows directly from 141 so let's move M/FEA 2 just before it.
Then the adventures in Hulk 143-151 plus the trial in 152-153 take place during the weeks of M/FEA 3. Only the latter part of M/FEA 3 follows IH 153. It also explains why Ross and Wilson are in New York. They came for the trial. DEF 1 comes here as well.
Then the Hulk goes to Long Island (154) which gets him to the microverse (155-156). He's back in 157 (1-3). The Leader sees him and elaborates a plan. Meanwhile the Hulk is found by the Sub-Mariner and tells him about losing Jarella. Defenders 2-4 follow in quick succession. Strange probably returns the Defenders from England to New York. The Hulk next turns up on the New Jersey turnpike on page 14 of IH 157. He goes to Counter-Earth, returns and crashes in the desert, learns about the Thundra-Thing match in FF 133, then reaches Niagara Falls. From there he goes to New England for Defenders 5 and reaches Quebec in IH 161.

IH2 138
SUB 34
SUB 35
IH2 139
**M/FEA 1 (4:2 - 16) MOVE TO HERE
**LASTDEF 5 (10 - 11:2)-FB MOVE TO HERE
**M/FEA 1 (17:1) MOVE TO HERE
**LASTDEF 5 (11:3)-FB MOVE TO HERE
**M/FEA 1 (17:2) MOVE TO HERE
**LASTDEF 5 (11:4 - 11:6)-FB MOVE TO HERE
**M/FEA 1 (17:3 - 17:8) MOVE TO HERE
**LASTDEF 5 (12)-FB MOVE TO HERE
**M/FEA 1 (18 - 19) MOVE TO HERE
break
A 88
IH2 140
IH2 141
**M/FEA 2 MOVE TO HERE
**IH2 142 MOVE TO HERE
FF 111
FF 112
FF 113
IH2 143
IH2 144 (12)-FB
IH2 144
**S&L 3 MOVE FROM HERE
**M/FEA 1 (4:2 - 16) MOVE FROM HERE
LASTDEF 5 (10 - 11:2)-FB MOVE FROM HERE
M/FEA 1 (17:1) MOVE FROM HERE
LASTDEF 5 (11:3)-FB MOVE FROM HERE
M/FEA 1 (17:2) MOVE FROM HERE
LASTDEF 5 (11:4 - 11:6)-FB MOVE FROM HERE
M/FEA 1 (17:3 - 17:8) MOVE FROM HERE
LASTDEF 5 (12)-FB MOVE FROM HERE
M/FEA 1 (18 - 19) MOVE FROM HERE
A 100
IH2 145
IH2 146
IH2 147
IH2 147/2
IH2 148 (1 - 15)
IH2 154-FB
IH2 148 (16 - 22)
IH2 149
IH2 150
IH2 151
1 week break
IH2 152
IH2 153
break
**M/FEA 3 MOVE TO HERE
**DEF 1 MOVE TO HERE
IH2 154
IH2 155
IH2 156
**IH2 157 (1 - 3) ADD
**M/FEA 2 MOVE FROM HERE
**M/FEA 3 MOVE FROM HERE
**DEF 1 MOVE FROM HERE

**DEF 2 MOVE TO HERE
**DEF 3 MOVE TO HERE
**DEF 4 (1 - 18:3) MOVE TO HERE
**A 157-FB MOVE TO HERE
**DEF 4 (18:4 - 20) MOVE TO HERE
**IH2 157 (14 - 20) MODIFY
IH2 158
IH2 159
**FF 133 MOVE TO HERE
IH2 160
break
**DEF 2 MOVE FROM HERE
**DEF 3 MOVE FROM HERE
**DEF 4 (1 - 18:3) MOVE FROM HERE
**A 157-FB MOVE FROM HERE
**DEF 4 (18:4 - 20) MOVE FROM HERE
break
DEF 5
**FF 133 MOVE FROM HERE
IH2 161 (1 - 17)

There are no breaks until IH 166 followed by DEF 7-8 and the Avengers-Defenders War.
Then the chronology includes M/FEA 11 where the Leader teleports the Hulk from an unknown location to a ghost town. That'd be an ideal story to shift the Hulk from NY to the Southwest. But there is no such need, it's currently placed between two NY appearances Def 11 and 167.
Hulk 167-172 occur without break.
Def 12 occurs in the heartland. At the end the Hulk asks Dr Strange to be taken away from that place and appears next in GSDEF 1 in NYC.
So, rather than sending the Hulk to a ghost town and have him back in NY, I put M/FEA 11 just before DEF 12. It doesn't affect the Thing's nor the Leader's chronology.

DEF 11
**M/FEA 11 MOVE FROM HERE
IH2 167 JFK airport -> Long Island Modok
IH2 168 Long Island -> Newark -> downtown Modok Harpy
IH2 169 NYC Harpy Bi-Beast Modok
IH2 170 tropical volcanic island Betty Hulk cave
IH2 171 Rhino Abomination Arizona Hulkbuster Base
IH2 172 Juggernaut Hulkbuster base
**M/FEA 11 MOVE TO HERE
DEF 12
GSDEF 1

[StrayLamb]

I like it.

The main potential problem affecting the overall chronology would be the placement of Marvel Feature 2, which is set at Halloween. The MCP, probably based on somewhat bogus chronologies appearing in old handbooks, merges two separate Halloweens into one (thru the chronology of Tom Fagan, if i remember correctly), hence the current placement, even though Amazing Adventures 16 specifically notes that M/FEA 2 was the previous Halloween. Ignoring the handbooks and current placements, and just relying on Stan and Roy, the previous Halloween would fall between DD 84 & FF 119, which fits with your placement between FF 113 & A 100.

I never did like the idea of merging years. My original personal chronology for this period had this as two separate years, but i merged it all together based on the MCP's character sequences. I'm kinda wishing i'd kept my original now. I'll have to look back thru my original notebooks. It all works, but it may require some reshuffling of chronologies for minor characters, like Tom Fagan for instance. I'll make some time to go thru my old notes and work out what changes would need to be made for individual characters.

(Sorry Russ.)

[Leoparis]

Thank you, it's a lot of work as you can guess. As I've said before, we don't use the same methodology. While I admire the work that goes in your chronologies I would try to compress them by finding events that happened at the same time. For example where were the X-Men when the Hulk rampages in FF 25-26? Where were superheroes during any other such rampage or crisis?

I don't factor topical events in chronologies. A Halloween can always be reinterpreted as a comic convention. I have no problem with mixing years. I don't care about publication dates. I don't care whether Marvel said it was canon or not. I don't mind breaking up issues. In order to grab the reader, writers tend to connect the issues together and often convenient breaks will be found in the middle of an issue rather than between issues, especially in the seventies.

What I look at is consistency. For Hulk, geography is a key point. I also look at the internal chronology: if Marvel Feature 3 occurs over several weeks and the Hulk is not in those parts, then adventures in his own magazine should occur in the interval. Having M/FEA 2 & 3 between H 156 & 157 was a strain, it meant nothing happened to this character for weeks and then, all these weeks later, the start of 157 references 156, but the much-later placed Defenders 2 also references 156.

While most comic book issues occur in a few hours, for characters who appear in several series, it is important to analyse the chronology, establish a timeline and fit events during the breaks in order to compress the chronology. What superhero comics present is the daily life of their characters. Popular characters don't have an adventure once a month.

I also want to buck a regrettable trend which is to consider every flashback as an untold event. I found several flashbacks in the early Hulk chronology which were already told events. I folded them in their correct place. I met some resistance here when I suggested that various episodes where Captain America frees concentration camps could be folded together. Limiting rather than multiplying character appearances is key to a compressed timeline.

So far I've been lucky, I think I made significant improvements to the Hulk chronology. I'm currently in a snag for Hulk: Gray issue 2, a series which I need to solve to complete my review of early Hulk chronology. Maybe I will post my findings and let people offer suggestions. But generally I prefer to provide a solid completed work rather than have to dismiss suggestions.

I fear the late seventies when Hulk appeared in Incredible Hulk, Defenders, Hulk Comic and Hulk magazine plus guest appearances.

A big part of the work, which is to correct the chronologies of all characters involved, remains to be done.

[StrayLamb]

Thank you, it's a lot of work as you can guess.

Absolutely. Anyone who's been involved in working out chronologies is well aware of how much time and love you've put into your project.

As I've said before, we don't use the same methodology. While I admire the work that goes in your chronologies I would try to compress them by finding events that happened at the same time. For example where where the X-Men when the Hulk rampages in FF 25-26? Where were superheroes during any other such rampage or crisis?

Yes, we do have different methodologies, and mine has been posted elsewhere. I do believe in allowing the comics to flow the way they were told when at all possible. Inventing a timeframe and trying to squash everything into it is where the early handbooks come undone, and why they don't agree with each other. Even Poul Bourcier's timeframes posted on this site often don't stand up under critical scrutiny. There are hundreds of characters and happenings to be considered in the Marvel shared universe. That's where i believe your methodology breaks down, because you are concentrating on one character, when shifting things around for him has a flow-on effect for many others. On many occasions, things are set up the way they are for a reason.

I don't factor topical events in chronologies. A Halloween can always be reinterpreted as a comic convention. I have no problem with mixing years. I don't care about publication dates. I don't care whether Marvel said it was canon or not. I don't mind breaking up issues. In order to grab the reader, writers tend to connect the issues together and often convenient breaks will be found in the middle of an issue rather than between issues, especially in the seventies.

I get that, and granted, most people do it that way. Col_Fury frequently shrugs at topical events in the current chronologies, but only when it's made a necessity because of what's going on with other characters. Sometimes different writers are portraying events occuring at different times in the calendar year, when character interaction between the books necessitates the action all be occuring at pretty much the same time. Sometimes calendar dates have to be ignored, but i don't believe in changing them to force-fit issues into an idealized timeframe. Hence, when a story is specifically set at Halloween, and references events from the previous Halloween, i believe the writers' intentions should be honoured if at all possible. I also have no problem with shuffling comics out of publication date when it's required. Whether Marvel says it's canon or not is a key tenet of the MCP, however, and when publishing chronologies on this site, i believe it should be taken into account. I also try to honour the current placements for characters, unless it simply doesn't work that way. Otherwise, we can all set up out own sites and publish our chronologies any way we see fit.

What I look at is consistency. For Hulk, geography is a key point. I also look at the internal chronology: if Marvel Feature 3 occurs over several weeks and the Hulk is not in those parts, then adventures in his own magazine should occur in the interval. Having M/FEA 2 & 3 between H 156 & 157 was a strain, it meant nothing happened to this character for weeks and then, all these weeks later, the start of 157 references 156, but the much-later placed Defenders 2 also references 156.

While most comic book issues occur in a few hours, for characters who appear in several series, it is important to analyse the chronology, establish a timeline and fit events during the breaks in order to compress the chronology. What superhero comics present is the daily life of their characters. Popular characters don't have an adventure once a month.

I agree with you here, and i think most people would.

I also want to buck a regrettable trend which is to consider every flashback as an untold event. I found several flashbacks in the early Hulk chronology which were already told events. I folded them in their correct place. I met some resistance here when I suggested that various episodes where Captain America frees concentration camps could be folded together. Limiting rather than multiplying character appearances is key to a compressed timeline.

So far I've been lucky, I think I made significant improvements to the Hulk chronology.

There have been a lot of poor placements for comics published later which take place in the past. Many appear to have been placed simply because it happens to be a handy spot for a specific character, with little or no consideration as to other characters. I try to deal with each of these on an issue by issue basis as i encounter them.

I'm currently in a snag for Hulk: Gray issue 2, a series which I need to solve to complete my review of early Hulk chronology. Maybe I will post my findings and let people offer suggestions. But generally I prefer to provide a solid completed work rather than have to dismiss suggestions.

I fear the late seventies when Hulk appeared in Incredible Hulk, Defenders, Hulk Comic and Hulk magazine plus guest appearances.

A big part of the work, which is to correct the chronologies of all characters involved, remains to be done.

That's another difference between us. I have posted my chronologies mostly straight from my old notes, with a quick reshuffling to fit in with the MCP's individual major character chronologies. It's an impossible task for me to re-read everything myself. We needed to have them posted so that other people can use them as a guide in their own reading, and hopefully where they find errors, they will let us know. I've encouraged Frank to do the same. The more people we get reading, the more likely we are to end up with a cohesive chronology. I applaud the work you've been doing, and appreciate the labour of love it must be for you, and i look forward to reading more in the evolution of the Hulk.

[ShadZ]

A 88 Boulder Dam Colorado

Does the comic actually say the Boulder Dam in Colorado? Because the famous huge Boulder Dam (aka Hoover Dam) is on the border of Arizona and Nevada, not in Colorado at all (although it is on the Colorado River).

There is a small local Boulder Dam in Colorado, but it's not the sort of imposing (or important) structure you'd build a Hulk story around...

[Leoparis]

It just says Boulder Dam, my mistake, the point of these geographical indications being that the scene suddenly shifted from what seemed to be upstate New York to the Southwest and thus that there is a break where to fit other stories. Anyway Avengers 88 seems to point at an untold Illuminati story.

Straylamb, I don't limit myself to one character. The Hulk is just my current pet project because Ewing reignited my love for the character. I still have on paper a multiple timeline for all Marvel superhero series from 1961 to the mid-70s that I did in my teens in the 80s. But many issues have been published since with flashbacks or retold adventures (thanks Kurt Busiek, Dan Slott, Joe Casey, Mark Waid). In my first years here I was doing World War Two characters.

However I'm little involved in the chronology of current Marvel because the 60s and 70s (and World War Two) are the iconic years.

[Julio_Molina_Muscara]

Hi Leoparis, I agree with you that M/FEA 1 should be placed elsewhere (not between IH2 144 and 145).

But I would place it between FF 113 and IH2 142.

I've explained why in my post:

http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2 ... hp?t=16827

Your placement between IH2 139 and A 88 could work if Hulk were in NY in IH2 139.

But I believe he was elsewhere, thanks to a clever comics guru friend of mine who made me realize of that, robfj.

If not NY, where was the Hulk in IH2 139 then?

The short possible answer: Texas. Here's why:

a) After leaving the Caribbean island in SUB 35, Hulk reaches a coast. It is logical to assume he reached a US state on the Gulf of Mexico, like Texas and not NY which is too far away even for the mightiest leaping legs there are.

b) The comic that follows, A 88, takes place in the Nevada/Arizona border. That is somewhat close to Texas. Only one state between them, New Mexico.

c) In IH2 139, the Leader is reading a New York paper, the hospital is in an "upstate" location, the map reads "city", there is a river next to that city. These things may indicate that the Hulk is in NY. But,

c.1) since the incident on the paper, the Sandman/Hulk fight, took place before the Sub-Mariner's two-issue story, that paper is a few days old. So, the Leader could have gotten a copy of it in NY or elsewhere they sell that same paper.

c.2) the word "upstate" means the "northern" part of any state.

c.3) city is a populated area, not a synomim for NYC.

c.4) the map has a river and a brigde but it really is not an accurate representation of NY. It is a different city.

d) Yes, there is a story gap between IH2 139 and A 88. I would fill it with S&L 3 (Banner visits his old bunker in New Mexico).

Makes geographic sense.

IH 2 139 (Texas) ---> S&L 3 (New Mexico) ---> A 88 (Arizona/Nevada). Contigious states.

d.2) While you agree that S&L 3 should be placed elsewhere, you mention HMAG 15 as reference. But, Marvel has stated that HMAG stories were created by Bereet, so they are fiction, and I don't consider them for chronologies.

Hope this helps.

[Leoparis]

First of all, let me say that you have a valid hypothesis but I think it requires a stronger defense.

Hi Leoparis, I agree with you that M/FEA 1 should be placed elsewhere (not between IH2 144 and 145).

But I would place it between FF 113 and IH2 142.

I'm arguing for IH 142 taking place before FF 111-113, and my argument is based on the premise that those events happen in rapid succession, that the Hulk does not leave New York. It makes geographic sense to keep NY stories together.

d.2) While you agree that S&L 3 should be placed elsewhere, you mention HMAG 15 as reference. But, Marvel has stated that HMAG stories were created by Bereet, so they are fiction, and I don't consider them for chronologies.

The stories created by Bereet are those of Rampaging Hulk, they were supposed to feature the Hulk from 1963-1964 but had the wrong characterization. The stories in the Hulk! magazine were inspired by the TV show, the Hulk was the only Marvel character around (except in the 2nd and 3rd stories of HMAG 15, guest-staring Moon Knight). This means however those stories do not contain anything that would make them clash with Marvel continuity or make them noncanonic. They are in the MCP chronology. HMAG 15 features his cave lab and HMAG 20 retells his origin in the exact same way as IH 1. There is no reason to reject any of those stories.

S&L 3 is from 1998 and there is nothing placing it during that time between IH 139 & A 88. In it Banner says it seems a lifetime since he was in these caves. He was in them in Captain Marvel 21, Aug 1970, hardly a lifetime separating this from Hulk 139, May 1971. With the author being Roger Stern I will place it with his run or later when I come to it.

a) After leaving the Caribbean island in SUB 35, Hulk reaches a coast. It is logical to assume he reached a US state on the Gulf of Mexico, like Texas and not NY which is too far away even for the mightiest leaping legs there are.

The Gulf of Mexico is too large for any Hulk jump. Parts of the Caribbean, especially the smaller eastern islands, are closer to New York than to Texas (e.g. New York - Puerto Rico, 1611 miles i.e. 2600 km; Houston - Puerto Rico, 1975 miles.) Jumping from island to island in the Caribbean then up the Florida keys and the East Coast, could bring Hulk anywhere.

There is no mention that the Hulk comes from the Caribbean. All continuity narration refers to the previous Hulk issue. Even in Sub-Mariner 35, Mar 71, an editor note says, "Don't waste time trying to correlate this tale with the current Avengers issue!" And while Hulk 138 & 139 were published April & May 1971, Roy did not mention Sub-Mariner 34-35, Feb-Mar 71. In fact since 138-139 happen in the same "upstate" place, we are forced to imagine an unlikely long round trip to the Caribbean (whether it is from upstate NY or Texas). If Roy had not mentioned the searing reentry in the atmosphere at the start of 138, placing SUB 34-35 between 137 & 138 would have been preferable.

b) The comic that follows, A 88, takes place in the Nevada/Arizona border. That is somewhat close to Texas. Only one state between them, New Mexico.

Due to the guest writer Harlan Ellison, there is little continuity with anything that precedes. No explanation is given except that the capture of the Hulk was a joint effort from Pr X, Reed Richards and Tony Stark. The Hulk may have been captured anywhere and brought to the dam. A prepared crypt to hold him is mentioned. In other stories of this period, every time the army captures Hulk or Banner they bring him somewhere else by aircraft (136, 138, 141). Thus I see no need to build a straight peregrination leading the Hulk to his planned place of detention. I'm fine with the sudden break in continuity. Who knows? We may even decide one day that Sub 34-35 fits better between 139 and A 88 to avoid the problem of a round trip between the upstate hospital and the Caribbean.

c) In IH2 139, the Leader is reading a New York paper, the hospital is in an "upstate" location, the map reads "city", there is a river next to that city. These things may indicate that the Hulk is in NY. But,

c.1) since the incident on the paper, the Sandman/Hulk fight, took place before the Sub-Mariner's two-issue story, that paper is a few days old. So, the Leader could have gotten a copy of it in NY or elsewhere they sell that same paper.

The front page is about the upstate hospital fight in the previous issue. Why would a New York newspaper make its front page on a Texas incident?

c.2) the word "upstate" means the "northern" part of any state.

In Avengers 88 Richards mentions to Xavier the "upstate school" he is teaching at and it means upstate New York. Yet they are in the southwest in that story. When Roy Thomas and Herb Trimpe and New Yorkers use "upstate" that is for upstate New York. The fauna and flora in 139 is also that of upstate New York. It is not the fauna and flora of Texas. Thus both the writer and penciler equate "upstate" with upstate NY.

c.3) city is a populated area, not a synomim for NYC.

Page 9, you can see a sign for Route 35, which is north of NYC. There are other cities north of NYC.

c.4) the map has a river and a brigde but it really is not an accurate representation of NY. It is a different city.

Yes, it is a different city, likely in upstate New York. The backgrounds are an accurate representation of upstate NY.

d) Yes, there is a story gap between IH2 139 and A 88. I would fill it with S&L 3 (Banner visits his old bunker in New Mexico).
Makes geographic sense.
IH 2 139 (Texas) ---> S&L 3 (New Mexico) ---> A 88 (Arizona/Nevada). Contigious states.

To recapitulate, the Caribbean was not originally designed as a part of Hulk's geographical peregrinations. It makes the link to Texas for 139 via the Gulf of Mexico entirely speculative. The placement of S&L 3 between 139 and A 88 to make a geographical link from Texas to Arizona is not possible. You are supposing a straight line from the Caribbean to Texas coast to New Mexico to Boulder Dam but in that last the Hulk is already captured and there is no need for him to have been in that area in the first place. This is called grasping at straws.

You are also ignoring the visual clues about the flora and fauna, the route 35 sign, the usage of upstate by the writer.

Even the capture of the Hulk by a joint Stark-Richards-Xavier project is as likely to have occurred in these three's state of residence where they could quickly mobilize the necessary ressources. He would then be transported with Richards and Xavier to a dam-powered detention facility closer to General Ross's base of operations. Due to the Avengers going to an atoll in the Pacific, Stark could not accompany them.

There is nothing definitive about 138-139 being in New York state. It could be in many places as long as upstate can refer to any state but it requires more evidence than imagining a straight east-west line from the Caribbean to Boulder Dam.

[robfj]

I discussed with Julio some of his ideas for moving Hulk issues around. I did specifically suggest to him that #139 wasn't in New York, but for a different reason. We were then talking about the disconnect between A#88/IH2#140 and the surrounding IH2#139 and #141.

#140 ends with Hulk leaping away from what A#88 said was a Pacific island. #142 definitely takes place in New York City and so presumably does the bulk of #141, or maybe across the river in Westchester (though it never actually says so). But at the beginning of #141 a plane carrying glass Betty Ross is heading there so she can be cured by Dr Leonard Samson (and he can become Doc Samson). That plane looks like a big long-distance commercial craft, not a short-hop flight. And it flies over Hulk. A bit later a military plane flies from NY to capture Hulk and bring Bruce Banner back.
My point at the time was that Hulk could have been anywhere. So the link between #140 and #141 is that he went from the unspecific Pacific island to the US West Coast (bemoaning Jarella), started wandering around, was overflown by Betty's plane somewhere, continued wandering and was picked up somewhere by the military plane and taken to NY. These 2 somewheres were just somewhere in the US.

But this also had the side-implication that Betty was being flown to NY from somewhere else, and so #139 wasn't set in NY. Or because of the long plane journey not even in NY State.
In #138-139 Betty is in hospital suffering from a nervous breakdown which happened in #132 in California. So possibly that's where the hospital is. In #138 Hulk lands in the sea after falling from space, and at the end the military dump him back in the sea again, and he gets out of the water again at the start of #139. This could fit with California. But it would mess up the link with the Caribbean adventure in SUB#34-35.
Another clue is the Highway 35 sign in #139. This could be the Westchester NY State Route 35, but would Betty really be flown by a large plane from there to NYC? And the sign looks to my untrained eye more like an interstate US Route 35 sign. If so that runs through Indiana, Ohio and West Virginia. The only handy body of water is Lake Michigan at the Indiana end (near Michigan City). But that too would mess up SUB#34-35.
If the 35 sign is taken as generic then there are loads of 35 roads. I would guess Interstate Highway 35 (Minnesota to Texas) would look bigger than pictured (but maybe not everywhere). But there are enough 35 roads that we could place the hospital almost anywhere.

So my basic contention is that glass Betty being flown long-distance to NY in #141 means #138-139 are somewhere else. The writer & artist are unspecific as to where that is except that there's a 35 road and a large body of water nearby. I don't think they had SUB#34-35 in mind when they created these issues, but we have to find somewhere to put Hulk's Caribbean adventure, and between #138 and #139 seemed and still seems the best place because of the water connection. We just have to assume #138-139 are set somewhere convenient that isn't NY State.

[Leoparis]

I had not realized Hulk came back from Jarella's world on the nameless Pacific atoll. How did he come back to the American continent? The Pacific atolls are hundreds of miles away from the US coast. That is a lot of swimming. Incidentally there are atolls in the western Caribbean off Nicaragua, some of the only atolls in the Atlantic, which would allow for an easy transition from H 140 to Sub 34-35. (Except in A 88 Black Panther leaves the Avengers and he is still with them in Sub 35).

This lack of geographical continuity is rare and can be related to the Harlan Ellison plot in A 88 (plagiarized from Lovecraft).

Hulk in 141 says he can't find Jarella's land anywhere, so he must have travelled a lot. The newspaper about the Hulk-Sandman fight in 138 is dated Feb 16. In 142, Betty is cured on a cold April morning. That leaves enough time to crisscross the hemisphere.

The fact the newspaper does not state where the hospital is makes it implicit it is from the same state as the newspaper. Notice the blank before "hospital" as if a word had been erased. I'd love to know what word was there.

The argument that 138-139 does not take place in New York state depends on Samson's center in 141 being close to New York. But even that is uncertain. Hulk's presence in NY usually attracts media and authorities and we see none of that in 141.

If it's about proposing another place for Marvel Feature 1 (Maine), it could come between 141 (unknown) & M/FEA 2 (upstate NY). I'm not so keen on this because 1) M/FEA was a quarterly featuring two characters with monthly magazines, the characters were expected to have had other appearances between issues; 2) In M/FEA 2 Dr Strange needs to check if Hulk and Namor are in the vicinity as the last issue was "some time ago."

But M/FEA 1 can still happen after 139 even if 139 is not in upstate NY. The only thing we suppose with the big plane is that the hospital was far away from Samson's center. (Which might be a wrong assumption, the big plane may have been used for other reasons than long distance, such as less vibrations to transport the crystalline form of Betty.)

Hulk (2008) 18 tells us that Samson is from Tulsa, Oklahoma, developed his cathexis ray in New York then showed up at a top secret military installation with it. Is the center in Tulsa, New York, elsewhere? It remains open.

So I see little reason to make a revision. The newspaper, the upstate descriptor, the forest and the deer make it reasonable if not definitive.

[robfj]

There's a lot of agreement here.
Julio and Leoparis agree that M/FEA#1-3 and DEF#1-4 are in the wrong place, but DEF#5 is OK.
They also agree where M/FEA#3 and DEF#1-4 should be moved to.
And they agree that S&L#3 is in the wrong place.

Where they disagree is what to do with M/FEA#1-2 and S&L#3.
And Leoparis also wants to move FF#111-113 and FF#133 which Julio didn't consider.

I'll deal with S&L#3 1st. This was an add-on for Julio after I casually mentioned that of course it was in the wrong place like its neighbour M/FEA#1. I think he assumed that it had been placed in this period for a reason and just moved it as little as he could, while Leoparis says that its proper position is at the moment totally unclear. On that basis I propose that we leave S&L#3 where it is in the wrong place for now and maybe spin the question off into a separate thread to be resolved later.

This would also allow us to forget all the stuff about locations in IH2#139. Julio and I originally only discussed it as a 'virtual' change which wouldn't affect any chronologies. It was solely a geeky attempt make more sense of A#88/IH2#140 and SUB#34-35. But moving S&L#3 into the middle of it gave it 'real' chronology-world consequences.

That just leaves M/FEA#1-2 and whether Leoparis' FF moves have any bearing on this. I'm going to think about that.

[Julio_Molina_Muscara]

I agree 100%, Rob. Our work is valuable. So, at this point, I would suggest the following:

a) MCP admins, please consider updating your chronology index with the new comic placements where the three of us, robfj, Leoparis and myself, agree on, after our exhaustive research.

b) Meanwhile, the three of us could dig deeper into those placements we don't see eye to eye yet.

Thanks to all for participating in this.

[robfj]

Julio and Leoparis' proposals are even closer than I thought. Leoparis identifies 2 breaks in Hulk's continuity IH2#139/A#88 and IH2#151/#152 and a place between them where Hulk is in New York around #141/#142. M/FEA#1 and #2 both take place in New England. Both parties look for somewheres convenient to put them. Both pick #141/#142 in New York as a handy place for 1 of them, and both have to make do with 1 of the breaks for the other. Julio chooses to put #1 in #141/#142 and #2 in the later break. Leoparis chooses to put #2 in #141/#142 and #1 in the earlier break.

Leoparis' moves of FF issues don't seem to affect the decision or the result.

My investigation suggests that Julio's proposal is simpler but Leoparis' version is driven by wider considerations. He wants M/FEA#1-2 earlier to leave more room for M/FEA#3 which he correctly identifies as occupying 4 weeks. I guess from what he says that he may be intending a larger change to Sub-Mariner's chronology, possibly moving some of Namor's apps to within M/FEA#3. (He only appears at the beginning and the finale. Hulk is only in at the end while Dr Strange occupies the whole of the middle and the end.)

I'll finish by saying why I think Julio's system is simpler. His rearrangement of Hulk's chronology can all be done without changing that of Dr Strange and Sub-Mariner, and as far as I can tell without affecting any other chars apart from General Ross and Jim Wilson who appear in M/FEA#3. Leoparis' version *has* to affect Dr Strange and Namor. Those 2 currently have M/FEA#1 after NA:ILLUM2#1 which of course *has* to be after A#97. But Leoparis will move M/FEA#1 to before A#88 for Hulk which causes a contradiction unless he also moves it to before NA:ILLUM2#1 for Strange and Subby. It might also require moving it to before some other SUB issues, but this could all be part of a larger reorganisation for Namor.