Defenders (2011/vol.4)'s flashbacks

[loki]

The main story in Defenders vol.4 ultimately ended up being negated for 616 because Dr. Strange went back in time and prevented his younger self from taking the first steps that initiated the whole adventure. However, through that story there were flashbacks (in #5, 6 and 8 iirc) to the 1920s (and possibly 1930s) which featured Namor's parents, amongst others. Since those took place well before Strange diverged the timeline, they wouldn't have been impacted on by his change, and so logically still took place in 616. Which means they'd need to be accounted for in respective existing chronologies (Fen, Namor, Leonard MacKenzie, Orson Randall and all his Confederates of the Curious) as well as resulting in a number of new characters to chronologise.

There's a bit of a fly in the ointment. One of the flashbacks (Defenders#8) to Namor's parents is fine, showing them together with other adventures in the Arctic. This fits okay by just assuming there was a slightly longer courtship than we saw before. But the other, in Defenders#6, appears to show them together in an African country (which, in and of itself, could still be workable if we allow for a MUCH longer courtship) facing off against Orson Randall's Confederates of the Curious. BUT...

Immortal Iron Fist #6 shows shows Orson meeting for the first time a young Wendell Rand while he is taking on the "last" of the Lightning Lords of Nepal in a drinking game.
Immortal Iron Fist Annual #1 shows what therefore must be a previous encounter with multiple Lightning Lords, a confrontation explicitly stated to occur in 1928. Thus the Confederates can't come together as a group with Wendell in their number until at least 1928.
The flashback in Defenders #6 shows Wendell amongst the Confederates while taking on the group including Fen and Leonard. But we've been led to believe by other stories that Fen and Leonard never met again after Namor's inception (circa 1920), at least not before the modern day.

Additionally, the Defenders #6 flashbacks have the Confederates fighting John Aman, a feud that previously wasn't supposed to begin until nearer the end of their careers.

So something's got to give.

The date Wendell met Orson could be brought back to 1920, but that might not explain why he's still comparatively young (visibly a teen) in the mid-1930s; proximity to Orson's Iron Fist energies did keep the Confederates healthy for decades so that might account for it. Or you could explain it by saying that Fen and Leonard did find one another again during the late 1920s, albeit only briefly, and Fen chose to never mention it to Namor once she lost his father again.

However, I'd prefer to go with Leonard being absent in the Defenders #6 flashback, in which case, then we'd just have an adventure in the late 20s/early 30s when Fen left Atlantis for a while, which isn't hard to fit at all.

This third option is both helped and confused by that the art in different issues (drawn by different artists).

In Defenders#6, no one in the group is named, but we've got some who visually match #8's flashback: Fen, John Aman, Ivar the Strong, Judex and Musadora. We've got what looks like a boy, wearing a cap and carrying a book, who seems to match #8's Farraday Bobbs, described as a writer - except in #8 Bobbs is clearly female. We've got one in #8 absent from #6, the female aviator Orissa Kravinov.

And then we've got two more in #6. One has a full beard, is dressed in full naval uniform and carries a massive harpoon, and looks a lot like the Disney/James Mason version; the other is a turbaned gentleman with a scimitar who resembles the LoXG movie Nemo.

In #8, we get no one who matches the guy in the turban, and the named Leonard and Nemo, both of whom could be the James Mason guy if they grew a beard. #8's Nemo has a high-tech diving suit, looks European and has a horseshoe mustache, while Leonard is clean shaven (but with serious sideburns) and wears a military-style jacket with big epaulettes.

So the easy out would be to say Nemo is the guy with the harpoon in #6, and the guy with the turban must be someone who wasn't present in #8, right? Especially as the flashback to Nemo's death in #5 and Fen's photo of him in the same issue matches our James Mason lookalike. Not so fast, because in #6 we also have another flashback, showing Orson's Confederates confronting Nemo in the Nautilus; Nemo has his back to the reader while playing an organ (very Disney Nemo), but clearly wears a turban and carries a scimitar. So the artist of #6 clearly intended scimitar man to be Nemo, which contradicts #5 and makes James Mason someone different.

Assuming anyone can follow the above ramblings - thoughts?


Defenders#6 doesn't name anyone in the group, we're down one member (the female Orissa Kravinov) and one member seems to have undergone a sex change (Farraday Bobbs, the writer - looks female in #8, looks male or very flat chested female in #6 but still presumably the same person because the caps they wear match and he or she is carrying a book, fitting for a writer). And there are two members who don't visually match, but by implication seem to fit Leonard and/or Nemo.

[Col_Fury]

Here are some examples of how the DEF4 flashbacks are currently in the MCP:

Orson’s, Wendell’s, Captain Nemo’s, Fen’s and Leonard’s.

It looks like the MCP has the view that despite the artist differences, that’s Nemo and Farraday in the various appearances despite looking different, and Leonard’s always there. Also, this would be in 1920 (or thereabouts) during Fen’s and Leonard’s courtship.

Argument for keeping everything near 1920:
In SUBC 32/3 (1949), Leonard tells Namor that he spent “months” with Fen and her people, and then later in SUB 44-46 (1971-1972) an aged Leonard is lamenting that he only knew Fen for a short time, spent years looking for her after her abduction shortly before Namor’s birth and never reconnected with her.

As for Wendell’s age, maybe he was a bit younger than implied in his first meeting with Orson, and was a late bloomer / had a baby face? Something about Orson’s Iron Fist energy (like you say)? Artist interpretation? Or something?

The John Aman vs. the Confederates near the end of their careers thing would throw a wrench in that, though. Let’s see:

PRINCE OF ORPHANS/JOHN AMAN
DEF4 11-FB
DEF4 8-FB-FB
DEF4 8-FB
DEF4 6-FB (against Confederates)
IIF 5-FB (1933, but where’s John Aman?)
SECA 12-FB (WWII)
IIF:GMOD (against Confederates)
……

There’s no way DEF4 6-FB with Fen and Leonard happens after WWII, right?

Where was it revealed that John Aman began a feud with the Confederates late in their career? And is IIF:GMOD in the wrong spot?

[loki]

Here are some examples of how the DEF4 flashbacks are currently in the MCP:

Orson’s, Wendell’s, Captain Nemo’s, Fen’s and Leonard’s.

It looks like the MCP has the view that despite the artist differences, that’s Nemo and Farraday in the various appearances despite looking different, and Leonard’s always there. Also, this would be in 1920 (or thereabouts) during Fen’s and Leonard’s courtship.

Argument for keeping everything near 1920:
In SUBC 32/3 (1949), Leonard tells Namor that he spent “months” with Fen and her people, and then later in SUB 44-46 (1971-1972) an aged Leonard is lamenting that he only knew Fen for a short time, spent years looking for her after her abduction shortly before Namor’s birth and never reconnected with her.

That's what I suspected - that it's pretty difficult to figure a way for Leonard and Fen to be together later than 1920, but that we might be able to allow for a prolonged romance that could fit their adventures with the other Engine protectors.

As for Wendell’s age, maybe he was a bit younger than implied in his first meeting with Orson, and was a late bloomer / had a baby face? Something about Orson’s Iron Fist energy (like you say)? Artist interpretation? Or something?

Problem is that Wendell supposedly didn't encounter Orson for the first time until several years after 1920, per my original post - 1928 at earliest. So while that doesn't present a problem for the Arctic flashback, as Wendell isn't present, his presence in the African flashback creates a major problem.

The John Aman vs. the Confederates near the end of their careers thing would throw a wrench in that, though. Let’s see:

PRINCE OF ORPHANS/JOHN AMAN
DEF4 11-FB
DEF4 8-FB-FB
DEF4 8-FB
DEF4 6-FB (against Confederates)
IIF 5-FB (1933, but where’s John Aman?)
SECA 12-FB (WWII)
IIF:GMOD (against Confederates)
……

There’s no way DEF4 6-FB with Fen and Leonard happens after WWII, right?

Can't see how - the Confederates had broken up by then, and though I can't swear to it without rechecking all the issues, I believe Orson and Wendell never saw one another following that - in fact, I think none of the other Confederates ever saw Orson again.

Where was it revealed that John Aman began a feud with the Confederates late in their career? And is IIF:GMOD in the wrong spot?

Iirc, Green Mists of Death was where we learned about the feud, or at least had most of the details revealed. And yes, it looks to be in the wrong spot for Aman, as I believe all of the relevant sections are set in he 1930s, prior to WWII.

[Col_Fury]

Yeah, as established Fen and Leonard were together for almost (but not quite) twelve months. Maybe nine or ten?

They meet, she learns English (and as SUBC 32/3 reveals, Leonard learns Atlantean), fall in love, get married, have some adventures (including running into Paul Destine), and when she was "reclaimed" by the Atlanteans she was close to giving birth. Shortly after returning home (near the end of 1920 according to SAGASUB 1) Namor is born.

So early in 1920 they meet and Namor is born near the end of 1920. Plenty of time for them to have adventures in DEF4. DEF4 could be before or after they're married; there's wiggle room. Also, Fen's pregnancy isn't showing when she's "reclaimed," so she could be having adventures in DEF4 at say, eight months pregnant and it wouldn't show up in the art. I guess Atlanteans are more efficient at pregnancy than us regular humans.

As you say, no one is named in DEF4 6-FB; I suppose it's possible that's not Leonard there but some other ship captain. Fen could still leave Atlantis and have adventures with this group after Namor's birth, just not with Leonard present. That would loosen things up for Wendell, right? And for John Aman (at least), it should be:

PRINCE OF ORPHANS/JOHN AMAN
DEF4 11-FB
DEF4 8-FB-FB
DEF4 8-FB (1920)
IIF:GMOD (against Confederates)
DEF4 6-FB (against Confederates)
IIF 5-FB (1933, but where’s John Aman?)
SECA 12-FB (WWII)
……

Right?

[loki]

As you say, no one is named in DEF4 6-FB; I suppose it's possible that's not Leonard there but some other ship captain. Fen could still leave Atlantis and have adventures with this group after Namor's birth, just not with Leonard present. That would loosen things up for Wendell, right?

Yes, that would sort out the problem. If it isn't Leonard in Africa, then all the continuity problems go out the window (even if we have to wonder why Nemo's appearance changed so drastically). And the "Leonard" guy in Africa certainly looks very different from Leonard in the Arctic flashback, to the point where he could be the Arctic flashback's Nemo,.

And for John Aman (at least), it should be:

PRINCE OF ORPHANS/JOHN AMAN
DEF4 11-FB
DEF4 8-FB-FB
DEF4 8-FB (1920)
IIF:GMOD (against Confederates)
DEF4 6-FB (against Confederates)
IIF 5-FB (1933, but where’s John Aman?)
SECA 12-FB (WWII)
……

Right?

Yes.

[zilch]

If Leonard spent "years" searching for Fen, then why not also the other way around?

-z

[Col_Fury]

Well, to be fair she was kind of busy raising a child. She also had a very overbearing father who didn't approve of their union. And maybe, he was more into her than she was into him (maybe).

[Col_Fury]

This is what we have currently:

IRON FIST VIII/ORSON RANDALL
IIF 4 (1 - 3)-FB-BTS
IIF 4 (9 - 10:1)-FB
IIF 2-FB
IIF 4 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB
IIF 5-FB
IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:6)-FB
IIF 3-FB
IIF:DQOC
IIF@ 1 (6 - 13)-FB
IIF 6 (2 - 4)-FB
DEF4 6-FB
IIF:GMOD
IIF@ 1 (16 - 21)-FB
IIF:GMOD /2
IIF 9-FB-FB
IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB
IIF:GMOD /3
IIF:GMOD /4
IIF 13-FB
IIF 14
IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB
{IIF 1}
……

Some dates are out of order and a flashback or two is missing, so here’s how I *think* things should go:

IRON FIST VIII/ORSON RANDALL
IIF 4 (1 - 3)-FB-BTS
IIF 4 (9 - 10:1)-FB (becomes Iron Fist)
IIF 2-FB (WWI, 1916)
IIF:DQOC-FB (WWI)
IIF 4 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB (WWI, near the end?)
IIF 14-FB-FB (WWI, surrounded by corpses)
IIF 3-FB (1926, opium addict, first meets Ernst)
IIF:DQOC (September 1928)
IIF@ 1 (6 - 13)-FB (1928, w/Ernst, fights Lightning Lords)
IIF 6 (2 - 4)-FB (Orson meets young Wendell, “last” of Lightning Lords)
IIF 9-FB-FB (Orson trains Wendell to fight)
IIF:GMOD (w/Confederates & Wendell, tells them about John Aman, Wendell already started training)
DEF4 6-FB (w/Confederates & Wendell, fights Aman)
IIF@ 1 (16 - 21)-FB (w/Confederates, Wendell 15 yrs old)
IIF:GMOD /2 (Wendell practices Kung Fu)
IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB (opium addict, tells Wendell K’un-Lun will kill him)
IIF:GMOD /3 (already told Wendell K’un-Lun will kill him, agrees to never see Wendell again)
IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:5)-FB (returns to K’un-Lun)
IIF 5-FB (1933, attacked for refusing to fight)
IIF 4 (10:6)-FB (escapes K’un-Lun)
IIF:GMOD /4 (Hydra exists, so post-WWII, last saw Wendell in GMOD /3)
IIF 13-FB (Wendell leaves K’un-Lun and finds Orson a mess)
IIF 14-FB (continued from IIF 13-FB)
IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB (1963, fights Hydra)
{IIF 1}
……

All the other Confederates would need rearranging as well, and we’re missing Frankenstein & his monster’s appearance in IIF:GMOD /3 (and some Wendell appearances, it looks like).

How’s this look?

[loki]

here’s how I *think* things should go:

IRON FIST VIII/ORSON RANDALL
IIF 4 (1 - 3)-FB-BTS
IIF 4 (9 - 10:1)-FB (becomes Iron Fist)
IIF 2-FB (WWI, 1916)
IIF:DQOC-FB (WWI)
IIF 4 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB (WWI, near the end?)
IIF 14-FB-FB (WWI, surrounded by corpses)
IIF 3-FB (1926, opium addict, first meets Ernst)
IIF:DQOC (September 1928)
IIF@ 1 (6 - 13)-FB (1928, w/Ernst, fights Lightning Lords)
IIF 6 (2 - 4)-FB (Orson meets young Wendell, “last” of Lightning Lords)
IIF 9-FB-FB (Orson trains Wendell to fight)
IIF:GMOD (w/Confederates & Wendell, tells them about John Aman, Wendell already started training)
DEF4 6-FB (w/Confederates & Wendell, fights Aman)
IIF@ 1 (16 - 21)-FB (w/Confederates, Wendell 15 yrs old)
IIF:GMOD /2 (Wendell practices Kung Fu)
IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB (opium addict, tells Wendell K’un-Lun will kill him)
IIF:GMOD /3 (already told Wendell K’un-Lun will kill him, agrees to never see Wendell again)
IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:5)-FB (returns to K’un-Lun)
IIF 5-FB (1933, attacked for refusing to fight)
IIF 4 (10:6)-FB (escapes K’un-Lun)
IIF:GMOD /4 (Hydra exists, so post-WWII, last saw Wendell in GMOD /3)
IIF 13-FB (Wendell leaves K’un-Lun and finds Orson a mess)
IIF 14-FB (continued from IIF 13-FB)
IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB (1963, fights Hydra)
{IIF 1}
……

All the other Confederates would need rearranging as well, and we’re missing Frankenstein & his monster’s appearance in IIF:GMOD /3 (and some Wendell appearances, it looks like).

How’s this look?

Good. Don't forget to add in Orson's appearance in the fb in All-New Invaders I#12. That took place in October 1917.

[Col_Fury]

Most of the moves were pretty straightforward, but Fen / Namor made things a little tricky.

Given Wendell’s and Orson’s timelines, DEF4 6-FB has to happen between 1928 and 1933:
Orson first meets Wendell (IIF 6 (2 - 4)-FB) after IIF@ 1 (6 - 13)-FB, which is in 1928.
Orson vows to never see Wendell again (IIF:GMOD /3), which is before he returns to K’un-Lun and is almost killed (IIF 5-FB), which is in 1933.

Namor was born near the end of 1920. So, in 1928-1933 he’s between seven and thirteen years old.

FEN
……
SAGASUB 2 (4:4 - 4:5)-FB-FB (Namor 1 or 2 yrs old)
SUBC 32 (11:7 - 11:9) (Namor’s 10th birthday, so near end of 1930, released from exile)
NSUB 20-FB (Namor interacting with other Atlanteans, so after SUBC 32 & at least 10 yrs old)
DEF4 5-FB (Namor looks 10-11 yrs old)
SUBC 35/2 (11-12 yrs old)
SUBC 36/2 (11-12 yrs old)
N 1 (Namor much younger here, needs to be moved)
SUBC 37/2 (Namor noted as 12 yrs old)
……

Fen is in exile until Namor’s 10th birthday, so she can’t appear in DEF4 6-FB until after that. Which means DEF4 6-FB happens when Namor is ten to thirteen years old, or sometime during 1931-1933. Probably 1931, given the number of appearances Wendell makes after DEF4 6-FB and before IIF:GMOD /3.

So for DEF4 6-FB, we’re looking at either before or after DEF4 5-FB. In DEF4 5-FB, Namor asks Fen about a photo he found of Nemo, and Fen speaks of Nemo as if she hasn’t seen him in years (“a great captain a long time ago.” “The world was very different then, you see.”). Maybe Namor finding the photo prompted Fen to look Nemo up? And that leads to DEF4 6-FB?

(for those wondering, at this time Leonard had finally (after years) found financial backers for him to search for Fen, but the rich guys got drunk and drowned in a sub, leaving Leonard destitute in SUB 44-FB) (about 10 years after SUB 44-FB he’ll be in the navy in SUBC 32/3 around the time of M/MC 2/3)

We’re also missing Fen’s appearance in TTA 96-FB, where she’s homeschooling Namor. Also Nemo’s corpse in EARTH-11127 in DEF4 5.

The death of Captain Nemo is shown in DEF4 5-FB, but this is a different flashback from the one in Fen’s & Namor’s chronologies.

In theory:

AUGUST PERSONAGE IN JADE/YU-TI/TU-AN
……
IIF 4 (9 - 10:1)-FB
**IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:6)-FB (delete)
*IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:5)-FB
IIF 5-FB
……

BARKO
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
{IIF@ 1-FB}

ERSKINE, ERNST
IIF 3-FB
IIF@ 1 (6 - 13)-FB
IIF 6-FB
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
IIF@ 1 (16 - 21)-FB
**IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD /4
*IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB (move to here)
IIF@ 1
IIF 19

FEN
……
DEF4 8-FB-BTS
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
FF@ 1 (18:4)-FB
……
SAGASUB 2 (4:4 - 4:5)-FB-FB
SUBC 32 (11:7 - 11:9)
*N 1 (move to here)
NSUB 20-FB
DEF4 5-FB
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
*TTA 96-FB
SUBC 35/2
SUBC 36/2
**N 1 (move from here)
SUBC 37/2
……

IRON FIST VIII/ORSON RANDALL
IIF 4 (1 - 3)-FB-BTS
IIF 4 (9 - 10:1)-FB
IIF 2-FB
*[ANINV 12-FB]
*IIF:DQOC-FB
IIF 4 (10:2 - 10:3)-FB
*IIF 14-FB-FB
**IIF 5-FB (move from here)
**IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:6)-FB (delete)
IIF 3-FB
IIF:DQOC
IIF@ 1 (6 - 13)-FB
IIF 6 (2 - 4)-FB
*IIF 9-FB-FB (move to here)
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
IIF@ 1 (16 - 21)-FB
IIF:GMOD /2
**IIF 9-FB-FB (move from here)
*IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB (move to here)
**IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD /3
*IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:5)-FB
*IIF 5-FB (move to here)
*IIF 4 (10:6)-FB
IIF:GMOD /4
IIF 13-FB
**IIF 14 (delete)
*IIF 14-FB
**IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB (move from here)
*IIF@ 1 (24 - 29)-FB (move to here)
{IIF 1}
……

LEI KUNG, THE THUNDERER
……
IIF 4 (9 - 10:1)-FB
**IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:6)-FB (delete)
*IIF 4 (10:4 - 10:5)-FB
M/TU 64 (5:5)-FB
……

MACGILLICUDDY, SEAMUS "CHORES"
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
{IIF@ 1-FB}
IIF:GMOD /2
IIF@ 1

MCKENZIE, CAPT. LEONARD
……
DEF4 8-FB-BTS
**DEF4 6-FB (delete)
FF@ 1 (18:4)-FB
……
SAGASUB 1 (21:2 - 22:3)-FB
**SUB 44 (3:2)-FB (delete)
*SUB 44 (3:2 - 3:6)-FB
SUBC 32/3
**SUB 44 (3:3 - 3:6)-FB (delete)
SUB 43

PRINCE OF ORPHANS/JOHN AMAN
DEF4 11-FB
DEF4 8-FB-FB
DEF4 8-FB
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
**IIF 5-FB (delete)
**SECA 12-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
IIF:GMOD /2
IIF:GMOD /3
*SECA 12-FB (move to here)
IIF:GMOD /4
IIF 8
……

RAND-K'AI, WENDELL
IIF 6 (2 - 4)-FB
*IIF 9-FB-FB (move to here)
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
IIF@ 1-FB
IIF:GMOD /2
*IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB (move to here)
IIF:GMOD /3
**IIF 9-FB-FB (move from here)
**IIF 6 (17 - 18)-FB (move from here)
PM&IF 75 (9 - 10:6)-FB
……

SHADU
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
{IIF@ 1-FB}
IIF:GMOD /2

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
……
SAGASUB 2 (4:4 - 4:5)-FB-FB
SUBC 32 (11:7 - 11:9)
*N 1 (1 - 19) (move to here)
NSUB 20 (12)-FB
DEF4 5-FB
N:FM 2-FB
TTA 96-FB
SUBC 35/2
SUBC 36/2
**N 1 (1 - 19) (move from here)
SUBC 37/2
……

VIDAL, VERA
**DEF4 6-FB (move from here)
IIF:GMOD
*DEF4 6-FB (move to here)
{IIF@ 1-FB}
IIF:GMOD /2
IIF:GMOD /4
IIF@ 1

Alternate universes page:

CAPTAIN NEMO/PRINCE DAKKAR | EARTH-11127
DEF4 5

[loki]

Namor was born near the end of 1920. So, in 1928-1933 he’s between seven and thirteen years old.

FEN
……
SAGASUB 2 (4:4 - 4:5)-FB-FB (Namor 1 or 2 yrs old)
SUBC 32 (11:7 - 11:9) (Namor’s 10th birthday, so near end of 1930, released from exile)
NSUB 20-FB (Namor interacting with other Atlanteans, so after SUBC 32 & at least 10 yrs old)
DEF4 5-FB (Namor looks 10-11 yrs old)
SUBC 35/2 (11-12 yrs old)
SUBC 36/2 (11-12 yrs old)
N 1 (Namor much younger here, needs to be moved)
SUBC 37/2 (Namor noted as 12 yrs old)
……

Fen is in exile until Namor’s 10th birthday, so she can’t appear in DEF4 6-FB until after that.

I think I'm missing something here. Why would her being in exile (I presume from Atlantis) prevent her being in Africa? If she's in exile the only place she couldn't be is Atlantis, and in fact, being in exile would seem to increase the chance of her turning up far away from her regular haunts.

So for DEF4 6-FB, we’re looking at either before or after DEF4 5-FB. In DEF4 5-FB, Namor asks Fen about a photo he found of Nemo, and Fen speaks of Nemo as if she hasn’t seen him in years (“a great captain a long time ago.” “The world was very different then, you see.”). Maybe Namor finding the photo prompted Fen to look Nemo up? And that leads to DEF4 6-FB?

That would actually work quite well.

Also Nemo’s corpse in EARTH-11127 in DEF4 5.

Wouldn't that also be the death of 616 Nemo? When he's found in Def4 5, he's apparently been dead for years, as he's a skeleton. Since the divergence between 616 and 11127 ultimately only happens a few weeks prior to the discovery of said remains, the death and Nemo's final resting place would be the same in both realities, no?

[Col_Fury]

I think I'm missing something here. Why would her being in exile (I presume from Atlantis) prevent her being in Africa? If she's in exile the only place she couldn't be is Atlantis, and in fact, being in exile would seem to increase the chance of her turning up far away from her regular haunts.

I don't think Thakorr means "exile" the way everyone else does.

In SUBC 32, upon hearing that Fen has given birth to a half Atlantean half human son, he wants to kick both her and the infant Namor out of Atlantis. An aide reminds Thakorr that Fen and Namor are the only heirs to his throne. Thakorr changes his mind, decides to let them stay, but they're "exiled" until Namor's 10th birthday. I guess that means they're restricted to Atlantis? Or something? Because he ended up doing the opposite of kicking them out of Atlantis.

So for DEF4 6-FB, we’re looking at either before or after DEF4 5-FB. In DEF4 5-FB, Namor asks Fen about a photo he found of Nemo, and Fen speaks of Nemo as if she hasn’t seen him in years (“a great captain a long time ago.” “The world was very different then, you see.”). Maybe Namor finding the photo prompted Fen to look Nemo up? And that leads to DEF4 6-FB?

That would actually work quite well.

Thanks. I thought so.

Wouldn't that also be the death of 616 Nemo? When he's found in Def4 5, he's apparently been dead for years, as he's a skeleton. Since the divergence between 616 and 11127 ultimately only happens a few weeks prior to the discovery of said remains, the death and Nemo's final resting place would be the same in both realities, no?

DEF4 5-FB (the opening page) is already in Nemo-616's chronology:

CAPTAIN NEMO/PRINCE DAKKAR
DEF4 11-FB
DEF4 8-FB-BTS
DEF4 6-FB
{DEF4 5-FB}

So yeah, Nemo died the same way in 616 and 11127. His current day corpse is only seen (so far) in 11127, though, and we don't have that currently listed.

Also, I really liked this repeated bit:
"A boat?"
"A ship. We call them ships."

[loki]

I don't think Thakorr means "exile" the way everyone else does.

In SUBC 32, upon hearing that Fen has given birth to a half Atlantean half human son, he wants to kick both her and the infant Namor out of Atlantis. An aide reminds Thakorr that Fen and Namor are the only heirs to his throne. Thakorr changes his mind, decides to let them stay, but they're "exiled" until Namor's 10th birthday. I guess that means they're restricted to Atlantis? Or something? Because he ended up doing the opposite of kicking them out of Atlantis.

Okay, that makes more sense. I guess Thakorr means exile from society - what in the UK used to be called "being sent to Coventry." Which might not prevent her leaving Atlantis during that period, just prevent her being acknowledged (officially) by her fellow Atlanteans.

Also, I really liked this repeated bit:
"A boat?"
"A ship. We call them ships."

Shame they are referring to the Nautilus when they say that, because being a submarine, it is actually a boat and not a ship.

[Leoparis]

I think Tha-Korr first thought of banishment (lifetime sentence) when he said "turn them out" while exile can be temporary. So he didn't end up doing the opposite of what he intended. Although in a way, a lifetime sentence is the reverse of a temporary sentence.

Therefore the later flashback doesn't have to wait until Namor is ten and should probably be before he's ten. I would think it more likely for Fen to have adventures while she's still in exile rather than when she has been admitted back in court as that would be a repeat of the original offense. We don't know if the Atlantean court's usages match European courts but it was customary for a member of the court to need royal approval to leave the court and so Fen would lack freedom in court.

[dimadick]

Immortal Iron Fist #6 shows shows Orson meeting for the first time a young Wendell Rand while he is taking on the "last" of the Lightning Lords of Nepal in a drinking game.

I thought this was depicted in Immortal Iron Fist #5, not #6. In any case, Wendell is depicted as a tavern worker in Nepal. He saves Orson's life by informing him of which of three chalices contains poison. Orson forces the Lightning Lord to drink the poison.

Wendell seems to have aged slower than the average human. In issue #8, we are informed that over 40 years had passed since Wendell first entered K'un-Lun.

And then we've got two more in #6. One has a full beard, is dressed in full naval uniform and carries a massive harpoon, and looks a lot like the Disney/James Mason version; the other is a turbaned gentleman with a scimitar who resembles the LoXG movie Nemo.

In #8, we get no one who matches the guy in the turban, and the named Leonard and Nemo, both of whom could be the James Mason guy if they grew a beard. #8's Nemo has a high-tech diving suit, looks European and has a horseshoe mustache, while Leonard is clean shaven (but with serious sideburns) and wears a military-style jacket with big epaulettes.

In the original novel "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea" (1870), Captain Nemo's real identity is unknown. In the sequel novel "The Mysterious Island" (1874), Nemo is identified as Prince Dakkar. He is the son of an Indian raja, and is a survivor of the Indian Rebellion of 1857 (1857-1858) against the British Empire.