Fantastic Four Grand Design

[Leoparis]

My fears have been allayed. This series was a very entertaining read. Tom Scioli builds his narrative nearly exclusively from Kirby comics and Fantastic Four issues.The appendix was very informative, I was delighted to learn the Savage Land had first appeared in Marvel Mystery Comics 22.


If I may, here are some nitpickings.

Page 3. The text in the appendix tends to undermine to story it accompanies.
Devil Dinosaur #1 does not state it takes place on an alternate Earth. This came later.
Strange Tales 89 also states nothing about Fin Fang Foom being an extraterrestrial Kakaranatharian.

The text for page 4 reads oddly "The Celestials' return and their provoking the great cataclysm [...] was first shown in [...] 1976 and expanded in [...] 1973.
One would expect:
The great cataclysm that sank Atlantis and Lemuria was first shown in Sub-Mariner 62-64 (1973) and the involvement of the Celestials in Eternals #2 (1976).

Page 5
Sphinx: Scioli includes that scene because it was retold and expanded in FF 212, which is where some of his information comes from.

Aesir: Odin, the Aesir and the Rainbow Bridge first appear in Journey Into Mystery 85. When Thor appears alone in 83, it is not known that the Aesir exist since the text only says that the one who picks up the hammer will have the power of Thor, not that he will be Thor of the Aesir.

Page 6
The Merlin adventure took place in Strange Tales 134.

[zuckyd1]

Uatu is misidentified as the Watcher who witnessed Galan's emergence. It was in fact Ecce (although his name wasn't revealed until much later and he is referred to in the issue only as "the Watcher".)

[Leoparis]

In this story, Scioli says the Celestials made the dinosaur evolve and we see Fin Fang Foom as an example of this.

In Strange Tales 89 nothing is said of the origin of Fin Fang Foom apart that he's a centuries-old dragon.

In Tales of Suspense 62, the Origin of the Mandarin, the Mandarin sees the skeleton of a dragon and stumbles on an old Makluan starship, deducing Makluans were the origin of the dragon myths.

Later, circa Iron Man 275, the origin of the Mandarin was tied to Fin Fang Foom by making Fin Fang Foom a Makluan.

I think I can reconcile all those versions.

The Celestials did experiment on dinosaurs and made them evolve and one race of dinosaurs, the race of Fin Fang Foom, developed interstellar travel. They left the Earth at one point for the Magellanic Cloud and settled on Maklu-4, maybe to escape the meteor that was going to wipe out most life 75 millions years ago. Some less evolved dinosaurs survived on remote Earth areas (Monster Isle) the same way marsupials survived in Australia. Then some Makluans came back to their planet of origin and got stranded there. Actions by Conan, Hercules and Ulysses Bloodstone wiped many of these ancient species to near extinction and facilitated the rise of man as the dominant species. Those old species entered myths as dragons, giants and other mythical beasts.

It's also possible that these dragons did not develop interstellar travel at first but were rescued from Earth by Skrulls and brought to Maklu-4 in the Greater Magellanic Cloud. It is known Skrulls traveled to the Greater Magellanic Cloud in their ancient past since they brought technology to the original Kree planet situated there. Skrulls were originally peaceful and benevolent before engaging with the expanding warlike Kree empire. Saving an intelligent species and settling them in the Greater Magellanic Cloud before the Kree conquered this galaxy might be possible depending on the chronology of the Skrulls and Kree.

[loki]

I think I can reconcile all those versions.

It's not 616.

[loki]

Page 3. The text in the appendix tends to undermine to story it accompanies.
Devil Dinosaur #1 does not state it takes place on an alternate Earth. This came later.

The wording could have been slightly clearer in hindsight - you are right that the reveal of it being an alternate Earth came later, circa the Fallen Angels miniseries in the 1980s. However, Devil Dinosaur #1 was the issue where his reality was first depicted.

Strange Tales 89 also states nothing about Fin Fang Foom being an extraterrestrial Kakaranatharian.

This one is accurate, though it could again have been clearer. The appendix doesn't say that was the issue where he was revealed as an extraterrestrial, it says he is an extraterrestrial who was introduced in that issue.

The text for page 4 reads oddly "The Celestials' return and their provoking the great cataclysm [...] was first shown in [...] 1976 and expanded in [...] 1973.
One would expect:
The great cataclysm that sank Atlantis and Lemuria was first shown in Sub-Mariner 62-64 (1973) and the involvement of the Celestials in Eternals #2 (1976).

Yes, I'll give you that. The order was a bit back to front.

Page 5
Sphinx: Scioli includes that scene because it was retold and expanded in FF 212, which is where some of his information comes from.

True, though what the appendix states is not inaccurate.

Aesir: Odin, the Aesir and the Rainbow Bridge first appear in Journey Into Mystery 85. When Thor appears alone in 83, it is not known that the Aesir exist since the text only says that the one who picks up the hammer will have the power of Thor, not that he will be Thor of the Aesir.

Thor appeared in JiM #83; Thor is Aesir, even if we didn't get told that until later. Hence the statement that "the Aesir, or Asgardians, first appeared in JiM #83" is correct.

Page 6
The Merlin adventure took place in Strange Tales 134.

I'll give you that. We knew Merlin hadn't appeared in F4, but overlooked him meeting Torch and Thing in Strange Tales. That said, the battle in question wasn't against Morgan Le Fay and wasn't for the Infinity Gems, but we still should have caught that.

[loki]

Uatu is misidentified as the Watcher who witnessed Galan's emergence. It was in fact Ecce (although his name wasn't revealed until much later and he is referred to in the issue only as "the Watcher".)

Yep, that's a straight up "oops."

[Leoparis]

Page 3. The text in the appendix tends to undermine to story it accompanies.
Devil Dinosaur #1 does not state it takes place on an alternate Earth. This came later.

The wording could have been slightly clearer in hindsight - you are right that the reveal of it being an alternate Earth came later, circa the Fallen Angels miniseries in the 1980s. However, Devil Dinosaur #1 was the issue where his reality was first depicted.

Strange Tales 89 also states nothing about Fin Fang Foom being an extraterrestrial Kakaranatharian.

This one is accurate, though it could again have been clearer. The appendix doesn't say that was the issue where he was revealed as an extraterrestrial, it says he is an extraterrestrial who was introduced in that issue.

The way I see it, if it's "revealed" later, he's not an extraterrestrial when introduced in Strange Tales 89.

Page 5
Sphinx: Scioli includes that scene because it was retold and expanded in FF 212, which is where some of his information comes from.

True, though what the appendix states is not inaccurate.

Aesir: Odin, the Aesir and the Rainbow Bridge first appear in Journey Into Mystery 85. When Thor appears alone in 83, it is not known that the Aesir exist since the text only says that the one who picks up the hammer will have the power of Thor, not that he will be Thor of the Aesir.

Thor appeared in JiM #83; Thor is Aesir, even if we didn't get told that until later. Hence the statement that "the Aesir, or Asgardians, first appeared in JiM #83" is correct.

The Aesir is plural, Thor is a singular and not identified as Aesir or Asgardian. The referenced panel shows Odin, the Aesir and the rainbow bridge. None of these things are in JIM 83. But they're all in JIM 85. The reader checking JIM 83 won't find the referenced information there.

You tend to consider later information (Devil Dinosaur as from an alternate Earth, Fin Fang Foom as an extraterrestrial, Thor as an Aesir) to be extent with the characters' first appearance. Possibly due to my background (I have a Master in English Literature), I don't. Shared universes are built on a tiling process, where writers keep adding new layers. And I make the point because it seems Scioli is building his story from two main sources--FF stories and Kirby stories--to the exclusion of others. Therefore such things as Devil Dinosaur being on an alternate Earth and Fin Fang Foom being an extraterrestrial were not part of his story. It's also why I think his source is FF 212 rather than Nova.

If it is indeed not 616 (I don't have that information) all the more reason to reference the original material the way it was presented rather than with later additions if the author ignores these later additions. In his alternate universe, humans might have coexisted with dinosaurs (they do anyway in the Savage Land) and Fin Fang Foom might be an evolved dinosaur rather than an extraterrestrial.

If it is 616, then the information can be reconciled. For instance the Devil Dinosaur seen is the first appearance of the 616 Devil Dinosaur and he appears here with Moon Boy in the ancient Savage Land.

Like I said I thought the appendix was well done and I learned a few things to my delight. My wish is for it to enhance the story it accompanies rather than contradict it.

I've seen comments from you that writers who placed SHIELD in the sixties didn't understand the sliding scale. I don't think that was the case, I think they simply wanted early SHIELD stories to take place in the original era they appeared, the Cold War era. Understanding what a writer is doing and forwarding that purpose will enhance his work while criticizing or correcting him will undermine the work.

[loki]

The way I see it, if it's "revealed" later, he's not an extraterrestrial when introduced in Strange Tales 89.

We didn't say it was revealed then, we said that he was introduced in that issue; calling him extraterrestrial was simply a descriptor. Whether he was or was not an extraterrestrial before the information was revealed to the reader really comes down to how you view the fictional universe. From my perspective, he was always an alien; we just didn't know it when we first met him.

The Aesir is plural, Thor is a singular and not identified as Aesir or Asgardian. The referenced panel shows Odin, the Aesir and the rainbow bridge. None of these things are in JIM 83. But they're all in JIM 85. The reader checking JIM 83 won't find the referenced information there.

We could have arguably noted that the specific panel was referencing that issue, but our statement isn't wrong - the first (modern) depiction of one of them is JiM#83. Again, that he's not identified by either of those names isn't relevant. It's like claiming that no Americans appeared in (to pick a random issue) Amazing Spider-Man #10 because nobody in that issue is specifically identified as being American.

You tend to consider later information (Devil Dinosaur as from an alternate Earth, Fin Fang Foom as an extraterrestrial, Thor as an Aesir) to be extent with the characters' first appearance.

Not really. If we were meant to be covering details of when such information was revealed, we'd have spelled them out. However, this was a summary with limited space, so we couldn't break everything down to that extent.

If it is indeed not 616 (I don't have that information)

Grand Design's Alicia is African American. Hence this is not 616.

In his alternate universe, humans might have coexisted with dinosaurs (they do anyway in the Savage Land) and Fin Fang Foom might be an evolved dinosaur rather than an extraterrestrial.

In this reality, yes FFF is an evolved dinosaur. All the more reason to mention that this isn't the case in the regular reality.

Like I said I thought the appendix was well done and I learned a few things to my delight. My wish is for it to enhance the story it accompanies rather than contradict it.

Thank you. I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that some bits might have been clearer (and, annoyingly, we do have a couple of outright mistakes); however, there we're always working under time and space constraints.

[StrayLamb]

I've seen comments from you that writers who placed SHIELD in the sixties didn't understand the sliding scale. I don't think that was the case, I think they simply wanted early SHIELD stories to take place in the original era they appeared, the Cold War era. Understanding what a writer is doing and forwarding that purpose will enhance his work while criticizing or correcting him will undermine the work.

I tend to agree with that sentiment.